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Comment by cletus | Hacker News Reader

Literally to reduce thickness by 0.5mm.

It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.

The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop.

The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.

Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.

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A 14 inch Thinkpad X1 Carbon is as light, has the same thickness, all the ports you need, double the processing power, AND has a really good long travel keayboard.

Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.

The MBP has a far superior screen and touchpad though. The touchpad on the X1 Carbon didn't have good palm detection either, at least on Linux. Also the MBP just feels much more premium.

I had an X1 Carbon for work and when I used it on my lap the keyboard would randomly stop working. I realized this was because it didn't work if the laptop was only supported on the back part.

It also has serious quality issues [1]. I've seen the X1 and it's nice but, honestly, I've yet to see anything that compares to the Macbook tracpad, even the latest one that fakes haptic feedback.

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-cont...

Maybe. I do not have these problems. But if something happens I am sure Lenovo will honor my 3 year on site support contract with them. I don't have to send the notebook to them and I don't have to go to a genius bar with an appointment. They just come to me this or the next day and fix the problem.

You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.

I've got an X1 carbon that developed bad pixels. (Anecdata I know, but I've never had an Apple device, out of more tha na dozen over a decade, with a bad screen, while every Lenovo machine I've ever had, five now, has some level of bad Q&A with the screen, usually backlight bleed.) They replaced the panel on-site, which was good, but not the bezel (which is a sticker and is now peeling off slightly from having been peeled off and reattached).

The macbook (not air) is a bit over ten percent lighter than the x1. I don't think it is worth it, for reasons you name, and run x1s myself. Still, Apple does offer the lightest ultrabook on the market, and it may derive from the nasty keyboard tradeoff.

For the Macbook the keyboard and ports might be a good tradeoff and it is indeed a marvelous little machine. But I would not compare a X1 to a MacBook because the X1 has a 4 Core CPU and is actively cooled. It sits somewhere between the Air and 13 inch Pro.

I'm not quite sure quite how ultrabook is defined, but if something like the GPD MicroPC counts, it weights about half of what the Macbook does (400 grams vs 920 grams), while also having way more ports (HDMI, ethernet, micro-SD, 3 USB-A , USB-C, and a serial port). Granted GPD devices are kind of weird and not directly comparable to a Macbook— it's probably the only laptop keyboard worse than Apple's current one, and the trackpad isn't in the same league as Apple's.

At what point does the difference in weight become entirely irrelevant? Is a 3lb laptop vs a 2lb laptop even within the margin of error of how heavy a backpack feels? That's gotta be close to the weight difference of whether or not I had lunch a given day.

> And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.

MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.

There's a kickstarter for a magnetic USB-C connector -- there has many of those, of course, but this one says it's fully compatible including Thunderbolt.

It's infuriating. I had to sell my 2017 MBP and buy a 2018 model because I wasn't in a situation where I could afford to be without a machine for a week or more. Otherwise I'd still be happily using the original machine.

I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.

>The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.

I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough.

Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards.

One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple.

And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.

Apple doesn't sell a single computer today that isn't crippled by serious hardware limitations and pointless compromises. I've been a Mac user since the late 1980s, but Apple no longer makes anything I actually want to buy.

What about the iMac Pro? Feels like a great machine to me without any compromises.

A few things: The memory and SSD can't be replaced by the user, meaning pro users are looking at potentially significant downtime if these items fail. The machine isn't serviceable at all without removing a screen attached by adhesive, a process that can cause breakage. The screen is also small by the standards of many pro users (I've not personally used a screen below 30" in years), and the design of the VESA mount is reportedly problematic. There are no Nvidia BTO options, and therefore no CUDA support. There are numerous reports of the T2 chip causing USB audio issues. The AIO design also limits the thermal headroom of an ostensibly "professional" workstation.

It is great product. But there are few compromises:

1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop. And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node.

2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training.

3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.

Not the parent poster, but I already have a desktop machine with no compromises. It's a custom-built arch linux machine with the best screen, keyboard, and mouse I could buy.

Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers.

We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them.

I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.

The new Mac Minis seem like a pretty good middle ground, user upgradable RAM, decently powerful Desktop grade CPUs, and no hardware keyboards to fail. Admittedly, the SSD tied to the T2 chip is a slight issue, but otherwise if you're tied to the Apple ecosystem, it seems like a good fit.

I've been super happy with mine since last fall, and just this week, upgraded the 8GB of ram to 32GB myself, took a whole 15 mins to insert it and put everything back together.

MagSafe was nice, but I have a 20,000 mAh USB-C power bank in my bag that is able to charge my 15-inch MacBook Pro. Got an USB-C to USB-C cable for it from a random store in the mall for a reasonable price, since it had no Apple logos on the side of it.

Tradeoffs.

A "pro" machine shouldn't be making these types of compromises. My last two laptops (ThinkPad 13, Dell 7490) both have the ability to charge either with the built-in charging connector or USB-C.

How magnetic are the built-in charging connectors in the ThinkPad and Dell?

Forget the usb-c dongle issues, my main concern is the magsafe lock. How could something so fundamental like that be removed?

I’r rather be able to change the cord as I see fit and use any spec compliant charger than be tied to MagSafe chargers that get chewed on by the cat and have the cord get shorter and shorter as I cut and solder a new section.

To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)

It was removed because MagSafe was quite literally the #1 source of hardware failure on those machines. It was worth it when it prevented the machine itself from taking a fatal tumble, but with power ports available on both sides of the laptop (as well as increased battery life), MagSafe is no longer worth it.

If you're really intent on it, Griffin sells a MagSafe USB-C adapter - https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power...

Was it really that bad? The only time I had it fail computer-side was when I noticed a staple on the magnet. The charger itself is shit, but that's a problem with Apple's shitty wire shielding and I'm sure their USB-C charger will also split open, fray, and break every 2 years of regular use.

Yeah it was. My understanding is the biggest single driver of non-accidental-damage AppleCare issues was the MagSafe charger no longer charging. I personally had that issue multiple times with MagSafe laptops, where it would get to the point of needing a lot of jigging and detaching/reattaching for it to start charging, and more than once I didn't even realize it wasn't charging until I got the "your computer is about to run out of power" dialog.

Thickness was, I believe, a factor in this. As in MagSafe 2 came about (over MagSafe 1) to reduce the depth of the socket as well as it's thickness. Many seem to have forgotten that MagSafe 2 was actually worse than the first one (eg it would fall out on its own more).

At least with USB-C in the future, ideally all cables will become USB-C and the adapter will no longer be needed.

I don’t know if this future will actually happen but would be nice.

Losing MagSafe is a bummer though.

I just picked up a couple USB-C to USB-A/-B/mini/micro cables for my external devices at a ridiculously irrelevant price and threw away the old ones in a box. No more dongles for me.

The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.

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