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Comment by burtonator | Hacker News Reader

One of the first human foods was actually bone marrow which is basically pure fat.

This happened about 2MYA by Homo habilis who figured out that you could use rocks to bust open bones.

Lions and Hyenas would leave huge piles of bones in the middle of the dessert which had been picked clean by vultures.

One of our ancestors had the brilliant idea to use a rock to bust open the bones.

Well it's a massive source of free calories. It's absolutely brilliant. It's just sitting there and there are no other predators or species around to fight with at that point.

It's also very safe to eat even days after since the marrow is wrapped in bone.

Next time you're out at a fancy restaurant and they have bone marrow GET IT...

Then realize you're eating one of the first foods that modern man ate and think of the gift he gave us.

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Lions and Hyenas would leave huge piles of bones in the middle of the dessert which had been picked clean by vultures.

One of our ancestors had the brilliant idea to use a rock to bust open the bones.

Wait - I thought hyenas were specifically bone-busting / eating:

"Spotted hyenas are some of Africa's most proficient predators. A frenzied scrum of them can dismantle and devour a 400-pound zebra in 25 minutes. An adult spotted hyena can tear off and swallow 30 or 40 pounds of meat per feeding. Latecomers to a kill use their massive jaw muscles and molars to pulverize the bones for minerals and fatty marrow. Hair and hooves get regurgitated later. "The only thing left is a patch of blood on the ground," says Holekamp." [1]

1 - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/whos-laughing-...

Note that the part you quote talks abut the latecomers to a kill going for the bones. That suggests that maybe hyenas don't like the bones, but will eat them if they aren't able to get the better parts of the kill.

Another part of that same article, talking about a rare hyena that made it to old age, mentions "She still had perfect teeth, too, since her rank assured her the best cuts of meat, whereas the teeth of lower-ranking animals get chipped and worn from crunching bones", which fits in with the bones not being something that they actually want.

So maybe if an animal is killed by a hyena pack that is small enough for everyone to get a good chunk of meat, they leave the less desired bones behind?

May be hyenas also adapter over million year period to bust open bones. But i wonder why they did not develop a brain like ours!

Brains are only developed if there is an advantage and I guess a brain without fingers, our eyes etc isn't maybe as useful as using the fat for energy.

Yp, brain uses tremendous amount of energy so there's a cost. Use too much of it to build the brain and you starve...use too little and same result since you're outsmarted. Rinse repeat until it's perfected.

Heyenas have 2 extra legs to waste energy on. Not much left in the budget for a big brain.

Rats have a similar brain-to-body mass as humans. Cats are fairly intelligent, are they not?

Evolution doesn't converge for all species to some single point. It was enough that hyenas got adapted to their environment, and their mutations didn't make much difference towards larger brains.

I was going to say...haven't you ever seen a dog go after a bone?

"who figured out that you could use rocks to bust open bones."

Most carnivores use their teeth to crush bones - lions and hyenas both do it. Heck, we buy doggie treats related to marrow and I have watched my own dogs crush bones to get to the marrow.

Marrow is quite accessible to all, including me - omnomnomnomnom.

Reminds me of family holiday meals as a child, with all the uncles arguing over who gets to slurp the marrow out of the bones.

Except on Thanksgiving, when they argued over who gets the "Pope's nose."

I use to feed street dogs in Thailand. I gave them BBQ-cooked chicken legs, and gosh, there would be nothing left in 10 seconds.

While I'm sure you did this out of good will, please don't give chicken bones to dogs.

They tend to splinter, leaving sharp spikes that may hurt the dog's intestines.

Beef and pork bones are better since these don't shatter.

Just to clarify, chicken bones themselves aren't a huge issue. It's cooked chicken bones, actually any cooked bones at all, that splinter and cause problems.

Of course, birds have small bones so dogs can conceivably choke on them when uncooked as well, but it's generally not a huge concern. The splintering however, is a result of cooking[1].

[1] https://www.rspcapetinsurance.org.au/pet-care/pet-ownership/...

I have a chicken in the slow cooker almost every single day. If the bones have cooked for more than 12 hours, it’s not possible for them to harm anyone. They’re too soft. By the time is they have simmered 24 hours, they are easily chewable.

I see, didnt know that. Thanks for letting me know.

Given populations of primates who use rocks to break nuts and shellfish open, I would not be shocked if this is a trait that primates evolved many times in various contexts. Still, most felids and canids (as others point out) crush bones routinely for marrow. Between that and the likelihood of more than just one ancestral tool users I’m skeptical anytime claims of one major factor leading to big brains come out.

I bet more than one factor was at play, and it probably involved some early forms of coordination through communication, the ability to carry things in hands while running, tool use, diet, and selection pressures.

Extended simmering (>6 hours) releases much of the nutrients in bones, too - collagen, gelatin, fats, minerals. I frequently slow-cook whole chickens and small bones become so soft they can easily be eaten after about 24 hours. Of course, you don't want to over-do this due to issues like histamine and lead.

Breaking down whole chickens with all bones and connective tissues is one of the areas where a good pressure cooker really shines. I like to make big piles of chicken and beef stock using a pressure cooker, then reducing it on the stovetop. I freeze most of it, and reduce some of the beef stock much further down to demi glacé, freeze it in ice cube trays and use it for sauces and soups.

A popular soup in Korea is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seolleongtang

There are restaurants in Seoul with huge cauldrons of the stuff that have been continuously under boil for decades.

The mineral content is so strong that it never seems to ever pick up the salt you can season it with tableside, but it's otherwise almost tasteless.

Can you elaborate on the histamine/lead issue?

I'm not sure about histamines, but animals accumulate heavy metals in their bones and teeth (including humans). Some lipid-soluble forms of metals will accumulate in fat too, like mercury in tuna or marlin.

Unfortunately there's evidence that metals like lead, arsenic, and cadmium are increasingly present in animal feeds. This is especially true in fish feed. Since farmed animals don't typically eat other farmed animals this won't have a biomagnification effect, but it's definitely happening in the wild (hence fish feed made from wild fish being especially contaminated).

The bottom line is that if you eat the bones, it'll dramatically increase the possibility of you metabolizing and storing the contaminants in your own body.

You'll be fine if you have a bit here and there. I personally believe (with no solid evidence) that this is where pasture-raised animals in most areas will be superior to feedlot livestock from who-knows-where. Heavy metals can be everywhere, but we know that they're increasingly present in feedlots. If the farmer near you has pastures, organic certification, and the cows aren't downstream from a pulp mill or landfill, chances are pretty good that it's worth the extra few dollars per pound.

Chickens end up with lead in their bones from pollution in their feed and environment. Normally, it stays in their bones and is discarded. However, extended simmering such as over 12 hours starts to release the lead. It’s a very small amount, anyhow.

As far as histamine this is one resource: https://help.kettleandfire.com/hc/en-us/articles/36001159707...

I'm been a huge fan of bone broth lately. 9g protein/cup vs none in normal chicken/beef broth - and I find it tastier to boot. (Though it's almost always out of stock at the local grocery store)

they don't stock stock but broth?

A number of replies to this comment point out that modern animals also eat bone marrow. However, that may have not been the case a couple million years ago.

In “Guns, Germs, and Steel”, Diamond points out that animals in Africa are particularly vicious and dangerous due to their coevolution with humans. Animals outside of Africa rapidly went extinct as evolved humans spread to the rest of the world, since they didn’t have the same evolutionary opportunity.

I know little about evolutionary biology or zoology, but I’m curious if the modern behavior/capability of animals to eat bone marrow could be the result of evolutionary pressure from coevolution with humans.

The chances of a highly nutritious, energy dense food being just left to go to waste by nature are practically zero. There are many, many examples of animals becoming highly evolved/specialised to exploit such food sources in habitats that don't feature humans (e.g. the oceans). The GP comment was an egregious example of a "Just-so story".

>The chances of a highly nutritious, energy dense food being just left to go to waste by nature are practically zero.

Well, humans are nature so..

I’m like 80% sure that hyenas are absolutely bone crushers. They get a ton of calories from breaking open bones (with their teeth/jaw)

Carnivore diversity was much higher in the Late Pliocene -- which means more frequent and varied scavenging opportunities.

There might have been a very small, precious window where early hominins had the chance for this discovery because of abundance.

[1] Origins of the Human Predatory Pattern: The Transition to Large-Animal Exploitation by Early Hominins: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/701477?jou...

How can bone marrow be one of the first human foods? Humans had to learn the use of tools first to access bone marrow. Humans needed a better brain to figure out how to create and use tools.

Also, predators are very intelligent. They can and will break open bones. Domestic dogs do that. Hyenas are renowned for their bone-crushing abilities.

Bone marrow is not the only source of fat. There are plenty of plant-based foods rich in fat

Most - if not all - primates can use simple tools like rocks to crush things. Our ancestors used the simplest of tools even before they were considered human.

Marrow is/was so well known as the best part that it appeared in poetry and prose.

KVJ Bible Psalms: 63:5 (there are many others)

> My soul is feasted as with marrow and fat,

Thoreau in Walden,

> I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, ...

> Next time you're out at a fancy restaurant and they have bone marrow GET IT..

As a child I remember enjoying lamb chops, but specifically remember going straight for the delicious yet delicate marrow. I'd suck it out or poke around the short piece of bone with knife to scrape it all out. My parents would even give me their bones pieces to eat while telling me "that's the best part!". Turns out they weren't kidding.

"in the middle of the dessert"

This was probably a mistake but I love the way it sort of works both ways.

How about Pho which relies, at least in nothern Vietnam, heavily on bone marrow? You need to cook the bones IIRC at least 12 hours until the marrow dissolves. Does the long cooking process "harm" any nutrions?

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