https://github.com/django/django/pull/2692
A framework that have deciding collaborators that is that sensitive / politically correct is not something I'm willing to invest my time on any more.
But at the end of the day, the choice is yours to make and it's simply your loss.
That may be, but it doesn't really matter to me if they put their political views into their code. It can literally be the best framework out there, built by the sharpest minds in the world and I would still use another framework even if it would hurt me economically.
I also think there would be more people like me if that were the case. But just because it's a popular opinion everyone lashes on my 'irrational' behavior. I don't think it's that irrational though.
Yes to some extent. Most secular and democratic societies has agreed to a standard that I defend. Call it status quo if you want. I think decisions like Djangos goes against that standard and is probably why I feel so strongly about this. They want to police speech and force everyone to use specific words.
I don't think we should police speech but there is a lot of people that are pushing for censorship and making some speech illegal today and I simply defend the usage of the words master and slave. I don't think there is anything political about it and they are not racially charged since masters and slaves has occurred in basically all societies through time. Banning the words because of american politics is absurd. I hate the modern american politics, I am not an american and I do not want it in my life.
By doing this, Django forces everyone to think about this and you have to be extremely sensitive if this is what you go around and think/worry about. What else will they do in the future? Ban people from using Django for certain stuff etc? Surely it would be forked etc, but forks rarely works out great in the long run.
Cool. But that’s your politics, and not necessarily everybody’s, and to have a different political position from you is not inherently morally wrong. We could argue about whether or not the status quo is fine, but that’s not the point - the point is simply that taking the status quo as acceptable is a political position which you’re subjecting others to, and your defence of it to the point of refusing to use software that does not back the status quo doubly so.
Or, in other words, you’re not for getting politics out of software - you’re for getting politics that you don’t agree with out of software.
Well yes, but I would be okay with the same being applied against me. Of course some basic level of politics is necessary (like licenses) if you want to count that as politics.
I won't go and put taxation politics, immigration politics or any other specific politic matters into my code or EULA. I expect this of other software as well. I don't want any unnecessary politics in the software when there clearly is no reason for it.
When I hear Django for example, first thing I think of is the slave from the "Django Unchained" Tarantino movie (or Django Reinhardt, the gypsy musician)...
Maybe this web framework shouldn't name itself after such a famous slave!...
Or from another point of view:
What a dick move was it from Tarantino to name his slave protagonist after such a popular web framework, which tries to be respectful, by avoiding references to slaves.
Also, I'm very much interested in the comment which sparked this thread.
I find it quite freaky, in a 1984-ish way, that it is completely inaccessible now.
What's next, flagging-people? Burning books is just a few steps away... You are a bit too trigger happy, maybe...
Well, that's precisely who the framework is named after...
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.1/faq/general/#what-does...
The Django developers try to include the absolutely widest range of people they can. But if that makes people decide to exclude themselves, that's not Django's problem IMO.
I think this is not about inclusion though, this is about exclusion of people who think like me.
And freedom of speech isn't an absolute right – not even in the U.S., but even less so in pretty much any other advanced Western democracy.
"don't be afraid to be intellectually honest and say what needs to be said - we're not afraid of hurting people's feelings for the greater good and we're proud of it"
and at the same time
"be careful you don't say anything that could in the slightest be misinterpreted as impugning someone's character"
i feel like i'm taking crazy pills? this is exactly the kind of thing that Nietzsche talked about in geneaology of morals: people in this "community" claim to be above petty politics and egalitarian but as soon as anyone points out anything that even remotely contradicts that image they get silenced or shouted down (e.g. bringing up race or gender politics and their role in the entrepreneur mythology).
it's completely within the scope of productive discourse to point out to someone that they're being irrational because no discourse can proceed until a rational framework is established. case in point: a rational discussion of the merits of django cannot begin from "i'm prejudiced against them because they made questionable PR choices".
honestly there are so few useful discussions on hn. the tech posts are either PR for yc companies or another js vdom framework and the culture posts are all mostly rehashings of the same neoliberal arguments for capital and culture etc. the few people that try to inject any heterogeneity of thought get vilified.
I don't follow your reference to Nietzsche but if it's relevant here, the same point would surely apply to any group. I try not to lose too much sleep over problems with HN that stem from humans in general. It's hard enough to change the few things we can.
is obvious. what is insidious is the ideology that is preached on almost every controversial thread that papers over that fact.
https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22hostile%20media%20effect%22...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17032257
a selectively enforced set of laws becomes defacto discriminatory and ideological: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...
I always opt out if possibly in those scenarios, just as I did with Django. I stopped using it and now I have nothing that runs Django anymore.