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Comment by kinkrtyavimoodh | Hacker News Reader

The same is going to happen for Apple's "Professional" Macbooks.

2015 I think was the last year they made a decent Macbook? Since then it's been the touch bar (annoying but functional but potentially useful) and an absolute shit-show of a keyboard.

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It's not just a keyboard preference issue for me. The reliability is shockingly appalling.

I buy computers for my startup and it feels painful to buy a MBP seeing that 50% of newer MBPs that we bought had issues with their keyboard. On a professional machine, a visit to the service centre is time and money wasted.

Also I travel a lot with my computer and just thinking about all the dongles that I will have to carry means that I am going to nurse my 2014 Macbook as long as I have to.

Why would you waste precious start-up budget on overpriced hardware?

For most the main reason is probably that they like macOS.

yeah. If I could purchase macOS and run it on another laptop (eg ThinkPad) I would. I'm loving my MBA 2013 (8gb ram, 256ssd)... but it is 6 years old and nothing from Apple makes me want to a hw upgrade.

I gotta be honest here, I get pretty good mileage out of Docker on Hyper-V inside Windows.

I don't bother much with Linux sub-system anymore as I'm almost always pulling in containers anyway these days so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker.

Obviously there's a bunch of reasons why you'd use OSX outside of being Posix-y, but just wanted to share that it's not the same picture as it was (if you've got Hyper-V on your laptop).

> so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker

you mean you'd rather run a HyperV VM which hosts a docker daemon and configure your local docker client to use that VM. (all done automatically with docker for windows/mac)

the downside of that is higher power consumption.

I should clarify - I am using Docker for Windows, which in turn requires and is using Hyper-V, in preference to using WSL.

i have a mid-2015. i just like it. aluminum body, good screen, i don't mind the keyboard, the trackpad is fantastic. I really want a physical escape key. I've thought about, and can readily afford, a newer model. the 32g memory would be nice.

It has been a long time since i felt like i need to start searching for a linux capable laptop. i've felt like that for a long while though. i consciously know it's not that hard to find quality hardware. I still have some subconscious apprehension. Trying to find a pcmcia network card to work with my thinkpad was such a pain back in the day. i have not so fond memories of trying to compile tulip.c into a kernel module.

MacOS was a breath of fresh air. everything just worked, and i had a real unix to work with. darwin isn't the greatest thing ever, but the hardware was nice. The air is getting kinda stale though. i need to find some hardware and make it right. the apple heyday made me complacent.

I’m transitioning from Mac->Linux laptop. I bit the bullet and bought one with Linux pre installed (statem 76). The hardware is not as good as the Mac book pro but it’s decent. And I was happily surprised that everything just works out of the box. Battery life isn’t great (3 hours with the intel graphics half that with ).

The jetbrains ides work and with so many tools being web based. I miss sequel pro and transmit but not that much(the alternatives aren’t that great). The thing I find is there are fewer options to buy software on Linux which means using the free slightly sub optimal solutions.

I think you can happily do software development on a Linux notebook these day (provided you have a power outlet)

Arguably the hardware is still worth it. But then there’s the software...

Probably cheaper than staff spending time moving, or rewriting code, tools to a new OS, as wages, ie. time, is going to far more expensive than a laptop.

Probably because software engineers who themselves are expensive are used to developing on Mac OS.

I run my own small business and in the last 2 years we've bought 4 macbooks. 3 of them have been in the shop for 3+ days getting their keyboards replaced. While I'm glad they replaced them, "shockingly appalling" is pretty much how I felt as well.

I don't really get the dongle complaint though. I have the USB/USB-C/HDMI dongle and I bring that if I need it for a presentation or something, but when I travel I generally just bring a usb-c wall charger and that's it.

You're lucky they fixed them. I have a MBP still under AppleCare with 2 almost completely defective keys and they refuse to replace it because of an unrelated scratch on the rear of the top case. It's clear they don't feel any responsibility for their poor design choices.

>I don't really get the dongle complaint though.

The dongle themselves, yeah sure whatever.

The fact that they placed the fucking WiFi antenna next to the USB-C port? That's just downright hostile. I'm stuck with this laptop (2018 MBP, non touch bar) for a while but I'll be replacing it the first chance I get.

I find it impossible to believe that this issue isn't known about to Apple, it most definitely came up in testing yet they continue to sell them anyway. It's a much bigger issue than the keyboard for me, because at least I can work around that with an external one.

I can't workaround not having WiFi because I want to use an external monitor.

Both of my newer model Mac keyboards had to be repaired in about a year of usage for the keyboard issue. Obviously glad Apple extended the warranty for this, but only after a lot of pressure. The 2016 and 2017 models should be recalled.

When I go to the Apple store they immediately try to get a compressed air can out to “solve” my issue. It is both hilarious and incredibly insulting.

For something as fundamental as keyboard, I don't see how they got it wrong. Already the 2014/2015 rMBP keyboards had less travel but still it is good enough. The newer models are so bad that I find them only slightly better than typing on a touchscreen display of a tablet. I don't understand how they even got it to production. Surely, they would have asked developers internally about experience on the keyboard for extended time.

Thinkpad X1 carbon probably has the best keyboard in that slim form-factor but sadly despite Ubuntu certifying the hardware, I ran into battery issues. Also, support for Ubuntu in general by other apps leaves a lot to be desired still.

I've crossed off all Macbooks from my mental map of future purchases until they fix the keyboard and either get rid of the Touch Bar or make it actually do something useful. If/when my current laptop dies, I have no idea what'd get instead. Probably some other machine with a non-terrible keyboard to turn into a Hackintosh.

The keyboards seem to be getting better. I can’t stand my 2017 MBP, but the 2018 MBP is noticeably better, and the 2018 MBA (which was refreshed after) is noticeably better than that. My hope is that the next generation MBP continues this trend. As for the touchbar, I’m not so sanguine. I can get by on the base machine though, so probably I’ll just stick with that and avoid the TB that way.

The keyboard is fixed on the 2018 MBP

No, it is not. Check out YouTube, still a lot of complaints, noticeably there's one from unboxtherapy.

Still has shockingly small key travel distance. I have some early symptoms of RSI, so this is actually dangerous for me.

Totally agree. I can’t use my 2017 MBP keyboard for more than a few minutes without feeling pain in my joints. As many others have said, it’s like typing on concrete. I’ve seriously thought about selling my computer and buying a 2018 MBA instead, which feels much nicer in the store.

Definitely not fixed.

My 2018 MBP keyboard failed on me twice already. My friend’s has failed 4 times. A third friend has had no issues.

If you get a 2018 MBP, be prepared to take it in for replacement frequently.

The Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon / Dell XPS line should keep you happy.

The X1 Extreme is closer to the MBP and the 2nd generation should be released this spring.

I'm currently typing this response from a ThinkPad X1 Extreme, running Pop_OS.

I've been a faithful MBP user, and before that a faithful PowerBook user. My 2017 MBP was the last straw. While I appreciate Apple extending the warranty on the keyboard, it is entirely impractical for me to continue sending my primary work machine away for 5-7 days for repairs.

One thing which prevents me from choosing these is the screen form factor - I find 16:9 to be really uncomfortable for doing any kind of development work. MacBooks traditionally have 16:10, which is notably better. 3:2, as seen on MS/Huawei, is amazing, but their linux support is... flaky.

I have to admit that this was a bigger challenge that I wish I had paid attention to before buying. I have gotten used to it after about a week though. A little more scrolling that I like but not unusable.

For my hardcore coding work I almost never use the laptop screen alone though. Either the laptop is plugged into an external or I am using my desktop rig with 3 monitors.

I considered both, and ended up buying a Razer Blade Stealth 13 - it's literally a black macbook that happens to run windows. The quality is definitely on par if not better(mhmmmm mat screen).

How is Razer's customer service these days? I considered their laptops in the past but was put off by the poor customer service. As much as I think Apple need to fix the MBP, their customer service is some of the best I've seen (albeit not perfect) for an electronics company.

Well, having just purchased the laptop, luckily I have no idea :-D and I hope I won't need to use it anytime soon.

Hehe, let's indeed hope you won't :-) Enjoy the new laptop!

I went the with Dell XPS 13 for this refresh cycle. Typing on it now. Running Ubuntu 18.04 and its a great little machine. I can even use my already owned Apple USB-C to HDMI/USB adapter when giving presentations. I had switched in 2017 to using a Linux desktop full time for development and now I have the full Linux laptop again for the first time since switching to the Macbook in graduate school.

There is a bit of personal preference at play, but the XPS isn't quite the same machine as the MacBook Pro/Air 13"

We have a bunch of both machines, and the XPS is much thicker, not quite as deep, the fit/finish aren't even comparable, and the XPS has a plastic 'ring' around the unit that's easily chipped/scratch and they look beat up rather quickly

I'm in the same boat but it's really bitter since there is no real competition, is there? I don't want to switch to Linux (sorry, guys!), I don't like Windows and even just in terms of hardware, almost all competing laptops are subtly terrible as well.

Agreed. Not buying a new MBP until they have usable keyboards again.

personal preference: the current Mac keyboard is the Best keyboard I have ever used for programming and email writing. it is leagues ahead of any other keyboard when it comes to speed and comfort.

before the latest Mac keyboard I was a die-hard Thinkpad keyboard fan (x220 none the less). since working on the new Macs it's like I've re-discovered the how good typing can be.

Can you elaborate what you like so much about Apple's butterfly keyboards? I've used every Apple notebook keyboard since 2003 and up until 2015 I was pretty satisfied. The only keyboards I considered better were Thinkpad keyboards. The butterfly keyboard to me is completely unusable due to lack of travel and feedback, so I barely use it. It feels like bashing my fingertips on to a flat surface, hoping for keystrokes to register. I prefer to drag my mechanical keyboard along and use that.

Not the person you asked, but I also like typing on the new keyboards. I find I can type faster with the low travel. My fingers tend to glide over the keys instead of mashing them. If you routinely move from a long travel to the a low travel keyboard I can understand an adjustment period. Now when I type on other keyboards they all feel mushy and require so much strike effort that I have to adjust.

What I don't like is the well documented reliability issues, and the how loud they were on the 2017 model.

This really sums up my opinion too. I feel like, even for many folks that end up liking the keyboards, it takes a couple of weeks to learn not to push so hard on the keys. That's certainly what it was like for me. But I like it now.

I just bought a ThinkPad T480 to replace my 2011 MBP that had been upgraded over the years. I couldn't justify spending $3k on a laptop with such a crappy keyboard.

Yes! I have that laptop and if it breaks I’ll try to somehow buy the same model again. It was perfect. The new ones feel so bad that I prefer the feel of the bottom of the barrel Acer laptop keyboards to the high end Apple ones.

I have a 2015 with screengate issue. Basically the anti glare peeling off with regular use. Solved by removing the whole coating with Clorex cause can’t give in the laptop for 5 days.

Dangers of living on the edge.

Apple is also oblivious because the new model still flies off the shelves.

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