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Comment by dijit | Hacker News Reader

I’m going to add to the dogpile here and add: I am really not sure how I can vote with my wallet more than I currently do.

I had a 5S; upgraded to a 6S and spent a year with it, but I really hated the size of the phone and realised that small phones were entirely gone by the end of my time with the 6S.

I tried Android for a while but it was Samsung’s Android and was not for me, I was frustrated and annoyed after every interaction with my phone. After a year of that I went and got an iPhone SE. I’m still very happy with my choice. (Although my AirPods sometimes cut out and I think its due to the size of my Bluetooth antennae)

I buy a fair amount of Apple stuff, I’m on the highest iCloud storage tier, I have AirPods, Mac Pro’s, MacBook Pro’s etc; if they have /any/ customer profiling at all they must realise that I certainly have the means to “upgrade” but doggedly refuse to do so.

When I picked this phone up I bought apple care for as long as I could. I will attempt to extend Apple care on this phone (or buy a new SE if it’s available) before support on this expires.

How else can I show my support to the small phone factor?

View on HN

Selling a new small phone is a market problem for Apple.

The form factor inherently makes it less expensive to manufacture. Bigger screens cost more etc. Which creates a pricing problem for them.

If they price it like a small phone (i.e. lower price) they cannibalize sales of larger phones with higher total margins, and lose money. If they price it with the same total margin as the larger phones, it'd still be the lowest priced current generation phone in their lineup, but would then compare very poorly on price to similar spec Android phones, which makes their brand look overpriced (as opposed to premium).

About the only way it would make sense is to make it a premium product. Give it the fastest available processor etc. so it can justify a premium price despite the size. But that's a difficult engineering problem. A faster processor uses more power and generates more heat, but smaller phones have less room for a big battery and less surface area to dissipate heat. And finding a solution for that is extra hard because what it needs is an advantage relative to larger phones, but if you improve performance per watt or battery density in general then the same improvement can go into the larger phone too and you still have no relative advantage.

That's a dangerous strategy considering that an iPhone is the "window" to their ecosystem: App store, Apple Pay, the iOS UX experience, etc.

I know many people who love Apple's ecosystem but who won't pay through the nose for a "premium" phone that's way overpowered for their needs.

The iPhone is the gateway drug these days, but I didn't start out with one: I started out with an iPod Touch. The iPod Touch is a great companion device for a non-iPhone that supports tethering -- it lets you dip a toe in the iOS ecosystem for a fraction of the cost of buying an iPhone. Also, with the TV app and an Apple TV is works as a controller for their TV ecosystem -- an evolved iPod Touch could be positioned as a luxury controller/media store device for the Apple TV, at any rate.

However, the iPod Touch has been neglected for several years: it's all but an orphan product at this stage.

(One ray of hope: Apple just refreshed the iPad Mini with a two-generations jump in CPU and a few nice-but-overdue tweaks -- double the storage, 1st generation Pencil support, and a TrueTone display. I hope they're planning on doing the same for the iPod Touch.)

Arguably the iPad 6th Gen is the gateway drug now. List price of $329 but many stores have it on a semi-permanent discount of $250. Very cheap entry into the iOS ecosystem, and really an amazing value compared to the other ~$250 tablets or laptops out there.

The only gateway I needed was a work-provided iphone 6. Soon after, I switched my personal phone to an iphone 6s, and I was all in after that...macbook, watch, icloud, etc...

Honestly, before I was 'forced' (for work purposes) to use an iphone, I wasn't a fan of Apple - although I admittedly never tried using one. Since then, the three guys that sit near me at work have bought into the apple ecosystem as well.

To backup the point of the iPhone is the gateway to their ecosystem. They increased the size of the iPhone and I stopped buying new iPhones, since then I've switched from an iPhone to Android, Macbook to Dell XPS, and iPad to a bog standard Windows 2-in-1 tablet/mini-laptop.

Then frankly they're not in the Apple target demographic. I know that sucks, but the iPhone is a gateway for customers who are willing to pay a premium for Apple products.

The real danger for Apple would be compromising with a budget model at the entry level. It would kill their value proposition on the whole rest of their line. The closest they get is previous-year models and refurbs.

> Then frankly they're not in the Apple target demographic.

I think you’re forgetting about the significant market for used Apple products. There are many people, myself included, who live on used MacBooks, iPhones, iPads, AppleTV, Airport Express, etc., and are perfectly content. I’m typing this out on an iPhone SE that I bought used, and that was the most I’ve ever paid for a phone. My wife is still content with a 5S, and I frankly never notice the difference when I borrow her phone.

Apple (perhaps begrudgingly) cares about us because the used market helps keep the demand high for their new and shiny products.

I think they run a real risk of diminishing returns. To use a car analogy; first they were the BMW of phones, then the Ferrari and maybe soon the Bugatti.

Along the way consumers will start to tap out and leave Apple's ecosystem altogether.

Maybe that's already set in motion, people are keeping their phones for much longer so it will take a while for the effects to be noticeable.

Selling 200m+ phones a year and owning 44% of the US domestic market is hardly 'Bugatti of Phones'.

What's tapping out is the pool of first time iPhone buyers, but fortunately for Apple, iPhones are very 'sticky'. Existing users are very highly likely to replace an iPhone with a new iPhone, and in fact the bulk of sales have been to previous iPhone owners for several years.

When people talk about iPhone sales slowing, they're taking about growth slowing. Actual sales are just levelling off. From here on out we'll see some ups and downs, sure. It looks like we're in for a period of economic risk and uncertainty too which isn't good for anyone, but I don't see any good reason to expect a sustained decline compared to the rest of the market.

The Bugatti of phones is Samsung's upcoming fold-out model, which will cost over $2000 -- more than a high-end tricked out PC you could run a decent sized neural network on.

O, definitely. Anecdote, but count me among these people. I had 4 or 5 iPhones, and 1 Android phone sometime in the middle (before my 6s). I am currently on the Xs, but if Apple keeps this pricing strategy I will not buy another iPhone again. Outside the US it is really hard to justify with the added tax and "export fee" on top. I just hope it will be ok for 3 years.

This is true. I bought the X in India but with assumption that I’ll use it for at least 3 years. Maybe more. This doesn’t sound hard to achieve given how long Apple continues to provide upgrades.

I'm still on a 6s and it's absolutely fine. I can't see myself upgrading in the foreseeable future, but when I do it will almost certainly be another iPhone. They've been really good to me and lasted many years as hand-me-downs, sometimes with a battery refurb just before they go out of support. The value proposition is just excellent.

That doesn't account for the people who like the SE for it's size/weight primarily. The fact that it's much cheaper than the new giant phones is a nice bonus.

It also doesn't take into account people who may be budget conscious now but will have spending power in a few years. Why would apple turn up its nose at that market share?

This could also be the reason that there is no small phone, as this would make the "window" to their ecosystem literally smaller.

> About the only way it would make sense is to make it a premium product.

What’s the problem with that?

In my mind that’s exactly what the iPhone SE is: a premium phone in a small form factor.

That’s exactly what I want. That’s literally the only thing I want in my next phone.

Nothing Apple currently offers interests me at all. Every option they have, even the “small” options, are way too big.

Some people seem to mistake the iPhone SE as some sort of cheap option for those who can’t afford a “real” iPhone (thinking about market segments as opposed to use-case), but that’s absolutely ass backwards.

We want the best, and we want it comfortably in our hand.

> About the only way it would make sense is to make it a premium product.

> What’s the problem with that?

In the next sentence he literally lays out what the problem with that would be. It's an engineering problem.

They solved that once before. They can do it again.

Unfortunately that compact strategy doesn't work in the market, just ask Sony. Sony has been making compact phones with flagship specs for years without much success. The phones are great, too (good feel, more than powerful enough, great battery life, minimal android mods, etc). But they just don't sell. Everyone wants the latest and biggest Samsung. Sony hasn't been able to carve out a profitable niche here.

I have a Sony compact and people are constantly asking me questions about it with intrigue then shrug their shoulders and go back to their giant phones.

The main knock against Sony phones is the camera quality, which they intentionally nerf in order to not damage their DSLR business.

Sony doesn't really have a DSLR business these days. They're all in on mirrorless on the high end and compact point-and-shoots on the low end.

I feel like Apple might be able to succeed here where Sony has failed, because of their moat around the Apple ecosystem.

>Selling a new small phone is a market problem for Apple.

I'd argue that Apple making product decisions for mainly financial reasons is a recent problem. My memory could betray me though.

I disagree. Fundamentally, every company makes product decisions primarily for financial reasons.

Apple has been focused on finances for most of its existence as an entity. If it appears they have become more focused on financial success recently, I would argue that's more likely due to market saturation than it is to any categorical change in their priorities.

EDIT: Changed and removed some wording to make the tone less condescending. Sorry about that.

> If it appears they have become more focused on financial success recently, that's more likely due to market saturation than it is to any categorical change in their priorities.

One could also cast it as an entirely predictable consequence of replacing a CEO who came up as a product person with one who came up as an operations person.

Apple's no stranger to saturating markets. They used to grow past that point, in part, by expanding into new markets that were peripherally related to the ones they already dominated in, and becoming a dominant player at those as well. They were remarkably good at it, too, with very few major missteps. They don't seem to be so good at that game anymore,though, so they're falling back on the top leadership's top skill: Expanding margins.

This is a rather condescending reply, and I hope next time you try to understand what I wrote before trying to lecture me.

I apologize for the condescension, it wasn't intended. Thank you for letting me know; I've edited the comment.

Thank you. I should've stated my position more extensively. By financial decisions I mean decisions that can be directly correlated to increased margins. The original comment was speculating that Apple might not sell the iPhone SE because they have lower margins, and that might make them more money in the short term, but if some people switch to Android for a smaller device, they'll lose long term market share. In that regard you're right and I'd rather call these kind of decisions short sighted or something along those lines.

So why is there an iPad mini then? Mac mini? Your argument is completely on the marketing side of things, but maybe it’s an production issue? Apple is spending large capital expenditures each year, no one exactly know why, but probably they buy all the tooling in the factories. Another form factor will cost them money to produce.

> So why is there an iPad mini then? Mac mini?

The iPad mini is neither the smallest nor least expensive current iOS device. The Mac mini starts at $800 and the entire Mac desktop line seems to be something Apple has discontinued caring about because they make all their money from iPhones now.

> Your argument is completely on the marketing side of things, but maybe it’s an production issue? Apple is spending large capital expenditures each year, no one exactly know why, but probably they buy all the tooling in the factories. Another form factor will cost them money to produce.

This does cost money, but if there is demand for the product (which isn't just diverted from your other products) then you make it back. And if it was a major factor, would they have existing products like the iPad mini?

The short answer is: I don't know. I just wanted to broaden the discussion. I think it is much more complex than just pricing

Regarding your last point: You are assuming that they're manufacturing the iPad mini on their own tooling like the iPhones. Who knows if that's true. The scale of iPad production is much lower so it might make no sense to buy the machinery.

It's lower yes, but still pretty high. Apple sells about twice as many iPads as they do Macs. In fact they sell more iPads than any individual manufacturer sells laptops.

> The form factor inherently makes it less expensive to manufacture. Bigger screens cost more etc. Which creates a pricing problem for them.

In this perspective it's interesting how their current "lower tier" phone, the Xr, is priced lower than the Xs for instance, but got the bigger screen and better battery.

It gives them an opening for marketing smaller phones as more niche models with eventually more engineering going towards keeping it small with the same or better specs than the bigger phones.

It's not a cost problem but a positioning problem. I just bought a Nokia 7 plus which is about the same size of an iphone 6 plus for 295 Euros. Big does not have to be expensive. And it's an 8 core phone. It's plenty fast. I'm pretty sure Apple is doing fine in terms of cost.

The real problem for Apple is differentiating their more expensive phones when the most significant thing for end users is the screen size and the camera. Take one of those away and there's not much left to charge for. Their current model is based on artificially inflated prices for big screens. For whatever reason there's a segment of users that happily hand over the cash for what is an overpriced phone. However, it lost them the entry segment; which is why they keep bringing back the 5S/SE formfactor. Without this, they bleed users even as revenue goes up because of the increased ASP.

If they get the bigger 6/7/8 formfactor to the same price, they are cannibalizing their high end range because the difference between that and their premium XR range is mostly not that big. Worse, you can't really tell them apart easily because they have the same design. This is made worse by people using iphone covers. Status and vanity are big reasons for owning an iphone but when they all look the same, you might as well get the cheaper one.

> In this perspective it's interesting how their current "lower tier" phone, the Xr, is priced lower than the Xs for instance, but got the bigger screen and better battery.

But it's about the price not the actual "size", the Xs has a OLED screen vs the LED screen of the Xr which is way more expensive.

We are in agreement I think, I see that material differentiation as another way to get over the hurdle of having a smaller device priced high enough to offer a comfortable margin.

I'm totally fine with Apple coming up with a set of ways to prevent a phone from being perceived as cheap, while keeping a smaller form factor.

>>> The form factor inherently makes it less expensive to manufacture. Bigger screens cost more etc. Which creates a pricing problem for them.

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. Traditionally smaller laptops cost more than larger ones, even for an identical or inferior spec(with the assumption that making them smaller takes more engineering to cram everything in). Don't see why this logic wouldn't apply here.

Why does it have to be cheaper or have more expensive components? If people value the smaller form factor as they say why aren’t they willing to pay the same as or even more than a larger phone to get it?

Exactly; it just requires some psychological trickery -- advertising the small form factor as a premium item. MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros are a reasonable analogy.

Nobody likes to feel like a fool. Paying $1000 bucks for a phone when you can get a similar phone from a competitor for $100 makes you feel like a fool.

Anecdotally, I'd happily pay what the iPhone 8 costs to get an iPhone SE-like form factor with updated hardware.

The recent generations of iPhones all look and feel too large to me. I'm like, maybe Apple should include tactical pants in their accessories:

https://techcrunch.com/2011/05/02/carry-your-ipad-2-in-the-p...

I'm an Android fan, so I'd love to know your source for $100 Android phones that can match (or even come close to) a $1000 iPhone in specs and build quality. I will order 3 this afternoon.

If it’s the product you want and the price is worth it to you then why feel a fool?

If the similar phone did what you want then you’d buy that instead. The extra $900 is either worth it for the missing feature or not.

Nobody’s a fool in this situation.

Paying $900 for it to be an iPhone over android for the average user would be foolish. The icon and ios aren’t worth the money.

Even for the average user the differences are not the icon and ios. It's the consequences of the icon and ios (better marketplace, safer phone, arguably more stable and more durable, etc)

> but smaller phones have less room for a big battery

The nice thing about the SE form factor is that it is enough thicker than the 6 and later form factor to offset much of the battery concern. If they made an SE form factor phone with an OLED display (thinner), kept it precisely as thick overall, and shifted even more of the circuitry to the chin and forehead of the phone, then they could get a pretty big battery in there, and as a bonus, the OLED would generally be more efficient as well.

> About the only way it would make sense is to make it a premium product

Interesting analysis. What about if they embraced the luxury brand aspect and instead of making it a premium product via the fastest available processor (etc) they made the back of the phone out of sterling silver or something?

If it still has the latest specs in the small form factor, I for one don't really care how they justify it to the marketing dept.

I just wish they would sell an iPod touch with cellular.

That’s called an iPhone or more precisely iPhone SE

But they don’t sell it anymore (this clearance aside).

Apple is close to solving the market problem with XR being a success. The next interaction of the XS line can offer a smaller version without cannibalizing mainstream iPhones, just like the current iPad line up.

Is it a success?

https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/09/iphone-xr-usage-overtakes-xs/

I can't pull up mixpanel trends right now for some reason, but looking at this graph doesn't lead me to believe the XR is very successful.

Exactly. Or a bit more succinct: High-volume, low-margin (as with the iPhone SE) is neither a viable growth strategy for Apple (the volumes would have to be huge and it would erode the brand -- way too risky), nor a viable complementary offering (as it would cannibalize other products).

The same is going to happen for Apple's "Professional" Macbooks.

2015 I think was the last year they made a decent Macbook? Since then it's been the touch bar (annoying but functional but potentially useful) and an absolute shit-show of a keyboard.

It's not just a keyboard preference issue for me. The reliability is shockingly appalling.

I buy computers for my startup and it feels painful to buy a MBP seeing that 50% of newer MBPs that we bought had issues with their keyboard. On a professional machine, a visit to the service centre is time and money wasted.

Also I travel a lot with my computer and just thinking about all the dongles that I will have to carry means that I am going to nurse my 2014 Macbook as long as I have to.

I run my own small business and in the last 2 years we've bought 4 macbooks. 3 of them have been in the shop for 3+ days getting their keyboards replaced. While I'm glad they replaced them, "shockingly appalling" is pretty much how I felt as well.

I don't really get the dongle complaint though. I have the USB/USB-C/HDMI dongle and I bring that if I need it for a presentation or something, but when I travel I generally just bring a usb-c wall charger and that's it.

>I don't really get the dongle complaint though.

The dongle themselves, yeah sure whatever.

The fact that they placed the fucking WiFi antenna next to the USB-C port? That's just downright hostile. I'm stuck with this laptop (2018 MBP, non touch bar) for a while but I'll be replacing it the first chance I get.

I find it impossible to believe that this issue isn't known about to Apple, it most definitely came up in testing yet they continue to sell them anyway. It's a much bigger issue than the keyboard for me, because at least I can work around that with an external one.

I can't workaround not having WiFi because I want to use an external monitor.

You're lucky they fixed them. I have a MBP still under AppleCare with 2 almost completely defective keys and they refuse to replace it because of an unrelated scratch on the rear of the top case. It's clear they don't feel any responsibility for their poor design choices.

Both of my newer model Mac keyboards had to be repaired in about a year of usage for the keyboard issue. Obviously glad Apple extended the warranty for this, but only after a lot of pressure. The 2016 and 2017 models should be recalled.

When I go to the Apple store they immediately try to get a compressed air can out to “solve” my issue. It is both hilarious and incredibly insulting.

Why would you waste precious start-up budget on overpriced hardware?

Probably because software engineers who themselves are expensive are used to developing on Mac OS.

Probably cheaper than staff spending time moving, or rewriting code, tools to a new OS, as wages, ie. time, is going to far more expensive than a laptop.

For most the main reason is probably that they like macOS.

i have a mid-2015. i just like it. aluminum body, good screen, i don't mind the keyboard, the trackpad is fantastic. I really want a physical escape key. I've thought about, and can readily afford, a newer model. the 32g memory would be nice.

It has been a long time since i felt like i need to start searching for a linux capable laptop. i've felt like that for a long while though. i consciously know it's not that hard to find quality hardware. I still have some subconscious apprehension. Trying to find a pcmcia network card to work with my thinkpad was such a pain back in the day. i have not so fond memories of trying to compile tulip.c into a kernel module.

MacOS was a breath of fresh air. everything just worked, and i had a real unix to work with. darwin isn't the greatest thing ever, but the hardware was nice. The air is getting kinda stale though. i need to find some hardware and make it right. the apple heyday made me complacent.

I’m transitioning from Mac->Linux laptop. I bit the bullet and bought one with Linux pre installed (statem 76). The hardware is not as good as the Mac book pro but it’s decent. And I was happily surprised that everything just works out of the box. Battery life isn’t great (3 hours with the intel graphics half that with ).

The jetbrains ides work and with so many tools being web based. I miss sequel pro and transmit but not that much(the alternatives aren’t that great). The thing I find is there are fewer options to buy software on Linux which means using the free slightly sub optimal solutions.

I think you can happily do software development on a Linux notebook these day (provided you have a power outlet)

yeah. If I could purchase macOS and run it on another laptop (eg ThinkPad) I would. I'm loving my MBA 2013 (8gb ram, 256ssd)... but it is 6 years old and nothing from Apple makes me want to a hw upgrade.

I gotta be honest here, I get pretty good mileage out of Docker on Hyper-V inside Windows.

I don't bother much with Linux sub-system anymore as I'm almost always pulling in containers anyway these days so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker.

Obviously there's a bunch of reasons why you'd use OSX outside of being Posix-y, but just wanted to share that it's not the same picture as it was (if you've got Hyper-V on your laptop).

> so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker

you mean you'd rather run a HyperV VM which hosts a docker daemon and configure your local docker client to use that VM. (all done automatically with docker for windows/mac)

the downside of that is higher power consumption.

I should clarify - I am using Docker for Windows, which in turn requires and is using Hyper-V, in preference to using WSL.

Arguably the hardware is still worth it. But then there’s the software...

For something as fundamental as keyboard, I don't see how they got it wrong. Already the 2014/2015 rMBP keyboards had less travel but still it is good enough. The newer models are so bad that I find them only slightly better than typing on a touchscreen display of a tablet. I don't understand how they even got it to production. Surely, they would have asked developers internally about experience on the keyboard for extended time.

Thinkpad X1 carbon probably has the best keyboard in that slim form-factor but sadly despite Ubuntu certifying the hardware, I ran into battery issues. Also, support for Ubuntu in general by other apps leaves a lot to be desired still.

I've crossed off all Macbooks from my mental map of future purchases until they fix the keyboard and either get rid of the Touch Bar or make it actually do something useful. If/when my current laptop dies, I have no idea what'd get instead. Probably some other machine with a non-terrible keyboard to turn into a Hackintosh.

The keyboards seem to be getting better. I can’t stand my 2017 MBP, but the 2018 MBP is noticeably better, and the 2018 MBA (which was refreshed after) is noticeably better than that. My hope is that the next generation MBP continues this trend. As for the touchbar, I’m not so sanguine. I can get by on the base machine though, so probably I’ll just stick with that and avoid the TB that way.

The keyboard is fixed on the 2018 MBP

Definitely not fixed.

My 2018 MBP keyboard failed on me twice already. My friend’s has failed 4 times. A third friend has had no issues.

If you get a 2018 MBP, be prepared to take it in for replacement frequently.

Still has shockingly small key travel distance. I have some early symptoms of RSI, so this is actually dangerous for me.

Totally agree. I can’t use my 2017 MBP keyboard for more than a few minutes without feeling pain in my joints. As many others have said, it’s like typing on concrete. I’ve seriously thought about selling my computer and buying a 2018 MBA instead, which feels much nicer in the store.

No, it is not. Check out YouTube, still a lot of complaints, noticeably there's one from unboxtherapy.

The Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon / Dell XPS line should keep you happy.

One thing which prevents me from choosing these is the screen form factor - I find 16:9 to be really uncomfortable for doing any kind of development work. MacBooks traditionally have 16:10, which is notably better. 3:2, as seen on MS/Huawei, is amazing, but their linux support is... flaky.

I have to admit that this was a bigger challenge that I wish I had paid attention to before buying. I have gotten used to it after about a week though. A little more scrolling that I like but not unusable.

For my hardcore coding work I almost never use the laptop screen alone though. Either the laptop is plugged into an external or I am using my desktop rig with 3 monitors.

The X1 Extreme is closer to the MBP and the 2nd generation should be released this spring.

I'm currently typing this response from a ThinkPad X1 Extreme, running Pop_OS.

I've been a faithful MBP user, and before that a faithful PowerBook user. My 2017 MBP was the last straw. While I appreciate Apple extending the warranty on the keyboard, it is entirely impractical for me to continue sending my primary work machine away for 5-7 days for repairs.

I went the with Dell XPS 13 for this refresh cycle. Typing on it now. Running Ubuntu 18.04 and its a great little machine. I can even use my already owned Apple USB-C to HDMI/USB adapter when giving presentations. I had switched in 2017 to using a Linux desktop full time for development and now I have the full Linux laptop again for the first time since switching to the Macbook in graduate school.

There is a bit of personal preference at play, but the XPS isn't quite the same machine as the MacBook Pro/Air 13"

We have a bunch of both machines, and the XPS is much thicker, not quite as deep, the fit/finish aren't even comparable, and the XPS has a plastic 'ring' around the unit that's easily chipped/scratch and they look beat up rather quickly

I considered both, and ended up buying a Razer Blade Stealth 13 - it's literally a black macbook that happens to run windows. The quality is definitely on par if not better(mhmmmm mat screen).

How is Razer's customer service these days? I considered their laptops in the past but was put off by the poor customer service. As much as I think Apple need to fix the MBP, their customer service is some of the best I've seen (albeit not perfect) for an electronics company.

Well, having just purchased the laptop, luckily I have no idea :-D and I hope I won't need to use it anytime soon.

Hehe, let's indeed hope you won't :-) Enjoy the new laptop!

I'm in the same boat but it's really bitter since there is no real competition, is there? I don't want to switch to Linux (sorry, guys!), I don't like Windows and even just in terms of hardware, almost all competing laptops are subtly terrible as well.

Agreed. Not buying a new MBP until they have usable keyboards again.

personal preference: the current Mac keyboard is the Best keyboard I have ever used for programming and email writing. it is leagues ahead of any other keyboard when it comes to speed and comfort.

before the latest Mac keyboard I was a die-hard Thinkpad keyboard fan (x220 none the less). since working on the new Macs it's like I've re-discovered the how good typing can be.

Can you elaborate what you like so much about Apple's butterfly keyboards? I've used every Apple notebook keyboard since 2003 and up until 2015 I was pretty satisfied. The only keyboards I considered better were Thinkpad keyboards. The butterfly keyboard to me is completely unusable due to lack of travel and feedback, so I barely use it. It feels like bashing my fingertips on to a flat surface, hoping for keystrokes to register. I prefer to drag my mechanical keyboard along and use that.

Not the person you asked, but I also like typing on the new keyboards. I find I can type faster with the low travel. My fingers tend to glide over the keys instead of mashing them. If you routinely move from a long travel to the a low travel keyboard I can understand an adjustment period. Now when I type on other keyboards they all feel mushy and require so much strike effort that I have to adjust.

What I don't like is the well documented reliability issues, and the how loud they were on the 2017 model.

This really sums up my opinion too. I feel like, even for many folks that end up liking the keyboards, it takes a couple of weeks to learn not to push so hard on the keys. That's certainly what it was like for me. But I like it now.

I just bought a ThinkPad T480 to replace my 2011 MBP that had been upgraded over the years. I couldn't justify spending $3k on a laptop with such a crappy keyboard.

Yes! I have that laptop and if it breaks I’ll try to somehow buy the same model again. It was perfect. The new ones feel so bad that I prefer the feel of the bottom of the barrel Acer laptop keyboards to the high end Apple ones.

I have a 2015 with screengate issue. Basically the anti glare peeling off with regular use. Solved by removing the whole coating with Clorex cause can’t give in the laptop for 5 days.

Dangers of living on the edge.

Apple is also oblivious because the new model still flies off the shelves.

I'm with you. I've been on my 5S since it released. Why? The small form factor + it still works really well.

I'm only just starting to notice some slow down that is annoying me, so I will be upgrading to the SE.

Like you, I sure hope their analytics shows that I could have updated all along to ANY of the phones, but after all these years, I chose the SE. Oh, and I tried Android too. Hard to explain why, but it just wasn't for me.

I had an SE for two years and cracked the screen. It turned out that Apple didn't repair the screen anymore. So for slightly more ($115?), they gave me a new 64GB SE. My only complaint was that I hadn't recently backed up my old one but that was on me.

The 4" SE is the perfect size for me. It's the best cell phone I've ever had.

How did you crack the screen if I may ask? My kids have thrown my SE across the room without cracking

If it falls on a road (like mine) with some pebbles, you are likely out of luck. It is not the height/force but the spikes.

>If it falls on a road (like mine) with some pebbles, you are likely out of luck. It is not the height/force but the spikes.

Fortunately spare parts cost peanuts and the SE is incredibly easy to fix. A new digitizer is 20 bucks on Amazon (with a toolkit including everything you need). $10 for a new battery. And replacing both of those requires two screws and 10 minutes of effort. I've replaced almost every part in mine short of the mainboard.

Thanks!

This. I went two years without a scratch. I dropped it facedown getting out of the car. It probably hit a pebble but I didn't dust the area for fingerprints.

Continue to hold your SE, as I do. You are a statistic to Apple, and keeping your phone helps. Eventually they will get the message that people like the SE form factor and will do something (finally).

I've commented in previous threads about this. To sum up: My advice is to look at Xperia Compact. It's Android with pretty small modifications from Sony (most you won't notice really, like a bunch of their pre-installed apps). It has awesome battery time, it's small and generally good. It's not top performance, but I doubt most people need that anymore. The only downside is you don't get a top camera (although an okay one - Sony is a camera company after all).

Sony Xperia XZ1 Compact (G8441) - it has a headphone jack, it runs Android Pie, the camera is terrific.

I went from an SE to a Samsung S10e last week. Android certainly takes a while to get used to and configure the way I want, but I'm starting to like it more and more. Specifically, I can use this phone one-handed for everything I want on the go, without requiring any accessibility mode. Samsung and app developers seem to have improved a lot in making the important things accessible from the lower two thirds of the screen. With that in mind, having all that screen space, battery life and performance while not loosing any of the SEs features (headphone jack), has really convinced me that this is the way to go. Plus, I get dual sim and SD card support should I need it.

Samsung S10e has the same size screen as the iPhone XS - 5.8 inch - no?

Yes. But that's my point - with current software this works out well for me, both on the go and at office / home. I thought it would be a bigger issue when I had the SE.

Same diameter doesn't mean same area. Different aspect ratios can cause differences in sizes anyway (this was used by the PC industry at the time when they switched from 4:3 to 19:9. Same diameter, smaller panels, ads looked better).

So yes, both phnes are 5.8", but S10e is 82.8cm^2, while XS is 84.4 cm^2 (XS: larger display). S10e has 83.3% screen-to-body ratio, XS 82.9% (XS: larger body, the display takes less space than the proportion of the body size differences).

TL;DR: despite the same diagonal, S10e is slightly smaller than XS.

It's not just the size, which is prefect for a phone where you intentionally want to limit the screen time and to limit the total weight

- There's an earphone jack.

- The battery consumption is reasonable.

- It has completely flat backside, so it's usable without the case.

- It's easier to repair.

- It can be put standing on its side for a photo triggered by a timer.

I also don't know how to "signal" that I like it in any other way than by keeping using it. The users like me are obviously not a majority.

It's possible to repair this? My iPhone SE's sleep / wake button died just last Friday. I took it to an Apple store and they basically said my only options were to buy a refurbished phone or a new phone.

I am assuming you do not mean the “home” button. If so, when I had an old iPhone 5 with a broken power (sleep/wake) button, I turned on AssistiveTouch to be able to lock the screen and reboot without using the janked power button. Without that, I would have had to buy a new phone.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202658

Try an independent repair place. They can't fix everything but the front panel is usually fixable. I actually own 2 SE. Whenever the battery on one gets bad or I crack the screen I take it in for repair, get the other one out, put the repaired one back in a box in my closet.

Same here, I've had my SE for some 3 years now. Holding out hope they come out with a sub 5" X.

I switched from Android to the iPhone SE purely for the size and form factor. iOS took a little getting used to but it's great.

4 years ago I gave my aunt 5S as a present, then 2 years later bought her a 64GB 6S. Last I saw her she was still using 5S and the new phone, while being superior hardware wise, is sitting in the drawer - "too big".

>I tried Android for a while but it was Samsung’s Android and was not for me, I was frustrated and annoyed after every interaction with my phone.

Understandable. Why didn't you try a Sony compact?

As an aside I'm glad I'm not the only one having less-than-perfect airpod reception with my SE. My guess is that they just didn't take the airpods required level of connectivity in mind when designing the SE but then decided that it was "good enough" to market as compatible.

Regardless, the airpods work flawlessly indoors and only cut out a bit when walking around the city.

> How else can I show my support to the small phone factor?

Buy all of them. If Apple saw the SE refurbished stocks are going within a short amount of time, it might tip them off that small form factor is still a thing in mobile phones these days and maybe they reverse their decision to discontinue the small form factor phones.

I'm just riding my old Android 5x ... not having fun, want to switch to Apple (for a variety of reasons) but man wanting a smaller phone these days with a top of the line camera, and just reasonable performance doesn't seem like I'm asking much.

I suppose you still weight less than people settling for and people wishing for larger size.

I am using a 4.7inch z5c.

i was in the same situation.

then i tried an iphone x.

it solved my problem: - small phone - huge screen - fast

Yepp - I liked the iPhone SE for its form factor, but the display was way too small.

For me, the iPhone X has the perfect size-to-display ratio. And as it's already a discontinued product, you can get it for an "okay-ish" price at around 690€ on your favourite auction website here in europe.

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