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Comment by ngngngng | Hacker News Reader

I think you misunderstand the now expanded definition of conversion therapy. In this instance we're not talking about electric shock or anything like that. Conversion therapy here just means "read these scriptures and testimonials and then you'll be straight".

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I think LGBT deconversion programs are a form of violence.

Imagine being forced to go through a "introvert deconversion" program where you have to read essays and do exercises that are designed to "help" you become an extrovert and shed your "shameful" and "perverted" introvert ways. LGBT deconversion is a far worse version of this.

I think your definition would make the word violence less useful. Your definition removes what makes violence a unique and useful word, i.e. that it involves physical force with the intent to hurt someone.

There are better, more accurate, words to use than violence.

Quick note: I'm reading your post in the most charitable light and giving you the benefit of the doubt, a less charitable reading would be that you're ok knowingly coopting a word because along with it comes a whole host of legal and ethical implications that you want to bring to bear on something that you don't like and you know that it isn't violence. I don't think you are doing this but noting it for others that may be.

I can see where you are coming from. I went along with that word choice because it does a good job of capturing the severity of the harm, which I think is important. I'm sure there is a better word. Perhaps my sibling comment's suggestion of "abusive" is a good one. Something like "very harmful", while potentially suitable, feels rather vague and uninspiring.

Yes, for example, abuse.

Many programs could be seen as a form of violence if you're forced to go through with them.

Ok, imagine your introvert friend was somehow persuaded to voluntarily go through said program. How would feel about that?

People do this all the time. Look at Toastmasters. Now, forcing someone that was highly introverted to go to Toastmasters would not be a nice thing to do. Strongly pressuring them to go when they didn't want to would also not be very nice, but that doesn't mean that Google should ban the Toastmasters app.

Living in a free society means that not everyone has the same ideas about values or psychology or religion. These things will be debated long after we're all dead. Until every disagreement is resolved, the best solution we've come up with is tolerance. If someone is doing something voluntarily that's not significantly hurting you, even if you don't think it's a good idea for them, you're usually better off shutting up and ignoring it.

The last people I want making these decisions is the company that makes my mobile phone operating system for god's sake.

Not good, nor would I feel good about them going through this LGBT 'conversion' app. But I'd feel even worse about helping further normalize corporate censorship.

Fair enough, that is entirely different question. I didn't intend to make any implications about that. I should have made that more clear.

> Imagine being forced to go through a "introvert deconversion" program where you have to read essays and do exercises that are designed to "help" you become an extrovert

There are such programs and exercises. They are just not called that.

You snipped out the part about treating the introversion as a shameful, perverted thing.

You've never seen an introvert get bullied just because they were introverted?

Yes, I have. I'm not sure how that is relevant? I was pointing out how the commenter was ignoring a very key part of my argument.

Do any of those scriptures tell the person they will endure torture in hell for the way they are? I think telling that to a kid is pretty damn close to violence

That is equally true (or false) of many other kinds religious teaching. I haven't reconfirmed it just now, but I'm pretty sure the bible and the quran promise similar punishments for something as heinous as murdering an innocent or as harmless as blasphemy.

>Do any of those scriptures tell the person they will endure torture in hell for the way they are?

Surprisingly, not really. They'll endure torture in hell for the gay sex, but not being gay per se (note that but so will everyone who masturbates, or marries a foreigner, or wears clothing with mixed fabrics, or, according to Revelations, most Christians.

...sorry this comment is so awkwardly worded, but I lost the edit window for it almost immediately, I don't know why.

My underlying point would have been that the Bible considers the act of gay sex a sin, but sex between people of the same gender wasn't necessarily considered deviant in many ancient cultures (such as the Greeks.) The concepts of "heterosexual" and "homosexual" identity, or of "being gay" would have been alien.

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When those words are directed at someone who hasn't had the time or experience to develop psychological defenses against them, then yes. Of course verbal abuse is violence when directed at a child.

If there wre plenty of apps that helps you accepting yourself being gay, why can’t there be apps helping you accepting yourself being straight?

The underlying assumption here, that being gay is a delusion which can be corrected through therapy and scripture, is incorrect.

Straight people don't need help accepting their straightness anyway... heteronormativity is already the universal cultural norm.

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