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Comment by twothamendment | Hacker News Reader

"Chrysler/Ford/GM are happy to sell you parts like engines and transmissions without caring whether they'll even be used in a car"

Ancedata says some of the big 3 do care. A guy down the road from me ordered 500 engines from Ford. They followed up on the order and when he explained they were for airplanes, they cancelled it, saying they didn't want to be liable for an automotive engine in a plane.

His plan to turn his custom plane into a kit stopped at a beautiful one-off that sits in his museum when he isn't flying it.

If he was going to put the engines in a tractor, I bet they would have sold them, but they didn't want to be liable for something in a plane.

*Edit - it was 1000 engines, not 500. Also found a link some might find interesting: http://stonehengeairmuseum.org/1992-montaniar

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The regulations around airplane engines are nuts (for good reason). I would've been wary as well

If he was building an experimental amateur-built (E-AB) category airplane, then there was likely no regulatory issue. Just lawsuit-scared lawyers. Not passing judgment--If I had lawyers I would want them to be conservative and cautious too.

You can put pretty much any engine you want in an airplane you build yourself, as long as you comply with the (reasonably light) homebuilt regulations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebuilt_aircraft

    If he was building an experimental amateur-built (E-AB) category airplane,
    then there was likely no regulatory issue.

I have no idea how much these particular engines cost, but even at $100 a pop buying hundreds of them at once puts the applicability of "amateur" under some strain (or that of "experimental", TBH).

OTOH, something about this story doesn't entirely make sense: who would get to the point they were ready to drop six figures on buying engines without, y'know, checking the regulations?

The story is that they would be sold as kits. I agree with you that this makes the story strange, though.

While his plan involved extensive modification to the engine and resale, the easiest workaround is to have the customer order the engine and freight it to him for modification. It would be expensive, but I do not see how it would have been impossible. This kind of aircraft would have been expensive in any case.

It sounds like other issues may have been just as big of a factor here as Ford's lack of interest.

"who would get to the point they were ready to drop six figures on buying engines..."

Right, what kind of guy is this? The kind who built a full size, accurate working Stonehenge just for fun.

Working Stonehenge? Is it possible to have an accurate but not working Stonehenge?

Those won’t open portals to the ancient alien homeworld, they just sit on the ground on Earth and look cool.

For people on mobile, the quoted section is:

> If he was building an experimental amateur-built (E-AB) category airplane, then there was likely no regulatory issue.

> If I had lawyers I would want them to be conservative and cautious too.

For good reason. I imagine if a few people dies because the engine as sold didn't perform well/stalled under certain aeronautical conditions (upside down, low air pressure, etc) then it wouldn't take long for the lawyer hired by the kit maker to start pointing at the big auto maker at every chance they got, even if it ultimately was something the kit maker did.

They are nuts when you carry passengers for hire. Experimental planes have less regulation.

What I wonder is how well all the various car engines work upside down :)

There was a weird time in the 80s when lawyers figured out they could sue light aircraft manufacturers after a plane crash, and almost killed general aviation.

> they cancelled it, saying they didn't want to be liable for an automotive engine in a plane.

Honda is working with some small aircraft makers on fitting their automotive engines for air uses, if your neighbour is still looking.

Flat six Subaru engines are also popular in experimental aviation.

So are Chevy Corvair engines (from the 60's)

Never heard of this project. I would think it was influential on the development of the Falconer V-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconer_V-12 for the Thunder Mustang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_51_Thunder_Mustang

This is kind of an extreme case, to be fair it doesn't really disprove the statement which was about normal aftermarket car part markets.

A very extreme case indeed, aviation is so highly regulated that any mention of it outside of the usual context is going to ring alarm bells. But I bet if he was putting them in custom racecars or such, they wouldn't mind --- because that's the whole reason they're selling those engines in the first place.

Since this whole Tesla parts thing came up, I've always found it ironic that you can easily buy an entire powertrain based on the stereotypical half-century-old American V8 design and put it into a not-so-safe hot-rod, register it and drive it on the road (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing --- I'm a car enthusiast myself), but Tesla will refuse to sell you even minor cosmetic parts and quote "safety" as one of the reasons (and meanwhile, their misleading advertising for "autopilot" continues to generate deaths.)

It is extreme, but Ford cares about liability in all cases, but most cases don't cross wherever line their lawyers have drawn. The idea that they don't care is all I was going for. That and it is a story someone would enjoy.

That sounds reasonable. If a company knows their engines aren't reliable enough for airplanes I think it is most ethical for them to refuse to sell them to people they know will use them in airplanes. I definitely wouldn't want to fly in an airplane with a car engine at least.

Why not sell the kit sans engine, and include specifications on which engine to buy?

If he was going to sell the plane as a kit why not simply sell it sans engine for the buyer to order individually? Beautiful plane by the way.

edit: I see someone else had the exact same question with almost the exact same word choice too!

My understanding is that Subaru engines are the most popular auto engine used in custom small aircraft. Maybe he can knock on their door.

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