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Comment by nine_k | Hacker News Reader

Middle school is the age when social hierarchies start to form

For millennia, teenagers were included in complex parts of society, with kids of different ages, and some adults around. They could learn, they could teach, the could choose authority figures to imitate.

In a modern school, though, they are isolated for most of their day in a group of 20-30 kids of same age. They can't build a natural hierarchy around experience and abilities, for a wide enough gamut is not available. So they end up building a hierarchy based mostly on aggression and persuasion. It of course ends up pretty toxic.

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Are there any structures that kids can get involved with (or the family) that will provide some of "complex society" feel?

Team sports. I grew up playing competitive hockey. I learned from a very young age that I am not special, that the team is stronger than an individual, and magic happens when everyone commits to their role.

I am grateful for this gift, and attribute to it much of my present success.

Same for me. I’m nit sure if it requires playing at a competitive level or not, but playing on a team trying to accomplish a goal, battling adversity, sacraficing for each other, etc are really impactful experiences that I attribute most of my personal success to.

Team sports has too much 'coach as dictator' for non-competitive kids to develop. They are left to pasture, literally. Only the star athletes receive attention, then they bully the rest.

This definitely happens, but that’s also a bad coach.

Good coaches will develop kids across the entire range of skill levels, and will consistently give them tasks that they can succeed in (at least in practice). In the US, most little league teams have “must-play” requirements, so both coaches have to play their weakest players optimally.

I think both are true. The must-play requirements are present, but they don't stop certain things from happening -- things like the coach's kid from getting the most playtime, attention and opportunities in game. I saw this happen firsthand.

Absolutely.

Then again, that person is probably a bad coach.

For anyone out there looking to give back to their community, learning how to be a good youth sports coach is probably high on the list of value add. It’s not easy, but you can have a positive impact on people that will last a lifetime.

Dunno why this was downvoted. I have seen same dynamic to develop too.

Love hockey. It's expensive but the most fun thing my kids have done. Great life lessons on teamwork and working together to achieve something.

Sure. There are kids who work in charities, political campaigns, family businesses, get involved in local civic or religious organizations, do creative performance like music/acting/dance, prepare for/compete in sports at a professional level, start doing serious academic work (attending conferences, writing peer-reviewed papers, working in academic science labs), invent stuff, publish fiction, compose new music, contribute to open source programming projects, do serious local journalism, .....

Any significant time commitment would be easier for a kid who didn’t spend all their time in school and had decent financial support.

Sports — playing on team or train as ref/ump (pays pretty well!), BSA scouts (find a troop that fits kid), other camps or volunteering events... etc.

Lots of stuff out there...

Sports yes. Or anything where a group or team works to accomplish a goal.

Church. Martial arts classes,or any rec class that isn't age based. Working at a family business.

I left the church just as every other thoughtful kid was supposed to but I miss it and worry frequently that American culture is slowly losing something which was foundational to its wellbeing.

Maybe thoughtful kids aren't supposed to leave church after all.. maybe they just need to find a good church.

By the time I was 12, church was something I was forced to do. I already doubted the whole premise, but couldn't actually say anything about it. And to top it all off, the churches my parents chose didn't really have kids my age. In sunday school, they usually had to decide which "special" class I was going to be in: THe one with older kids or the one with younger ones. It isn't like American children get any sort of voice in whether or not they go to church or which church/religion they adhere to.

I didn't have access to the other things, or at least I didn't know of these places in the small town I lived in.

Around my parts, this was supplemented by my church youth-group. I know that many other parents were taking their kids to local Scouts groups.

There are, but none of them are all-encompassing enough to replace the classroom hierarchies.

Martial Arts. Any decent school you go to will probably have men and women of all ages, sizes, races and social backgrounds. Many schools will also do "community events" which provide opportunities for families to get involved more.

True, historically taught Martial Arts are fantastic for a well rounded development, whereas the toxic male fantasy taught at many schools is the opposite. It pays in spades to investigate a martial arts school's instructor personalities, as many are male failures attempting some type of redemption through domineering others' children.

I had a job. Worked for me.

Absolutely. Modern schooling where same-aged people are clumped together is a stupid remnant of the beginnings of the industrial age. It has very little resemblance of how the real world actually works. Kids have very little or no input from more experienced older kids, and no expectation to care for or look after younger less experienced kids.

The sooner we get rid of this absurd and broken system the better, it has survived long past its useful life.

I.e. Lord of the Flies

Pg essay reference?

Quite possibly; this is not my idea, I definitely read about this before, likely several times.

Direct references would be welcome.

5th grade was the age for Midwest Gen X. I'm 54 now, and I remember at 5th grade it was suddenly Izods, Addidas and feathered hair or you were pathetic with no friends. The takeover was instant, as my older siblings had that brand consciousness hit at the same time. Blame fucking Capitalists for the ruin of America back in 1976.

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