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Comment by endorphone | Hacker News Reader

You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged at least 12 years, etc. Fully, legitimately balsamic vinegar.

Because the difficulty and complexity of making balsamic vinegar really isn't that far removed from, say, bourbon. And we all know you can find real, legitimate bourbon at any shady liquor store. It's a profitable venture so a lot of it is made.

Often these conversations turn into gate keeping, where we redefine what is "real" or not to disqualify the proles.

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> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged at least 12 years, etc. Fully, legitimately balsamic vinegar.

It depends on what you consider real. Balsamic Vinegar of Modena allows for "grape must (even if it is not from the provinces of Modena and Reggio Emilia) in percentages between 20 and 90% and wine vinegar between 10 and 80%" and "caramel is allowed, up to 2%". It must be aged in wood containers for a minimum of 60 days, not 12 years.

Traditional Balsamic Vinegar on the other hand, which GP is referring to, must be produced exclusively from grape must and aged for a minimum of 12 years. TBV is a clearly distinct product from BVM, and the EU regulates the terms as such.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar_of_Modena

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar

Just to clarify, there are three categories of balsamic of varying standards, the highest of which is expensive, aged in multiple barrels, and definitely not widely available in supermarkets.

That being said, it’s a stretch to call the less expensive Balsamic of Modena “fake”, even though it is not made to the same strict standards and permits some additives.

The third category of balsamic condiments made from syrups would be fair to call “fake”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar#T...

Which is the sort of market separation you see in Bourbon as well, to spin the analogy back. You can go to any cheap liquor store and find some Bourbon, but the expensive stuff is still hard to find for similar reasons (age, blends vs. single-barrel, etc). It's all still Bourbon, but there's still a quality differential between shelves.

There's also "Tennessee Whiskey" which trades age/maturity for charcoal, which should never rightly be confused with Bourbon, but you'll still see a lot of bars place Jack Daniel right next to real Bourbon or much worse consider it their well Bourbon.

This isn't quite accurate. Tennessee whiskey fully qualifies as bourbon whiskey. It's a marketing decision to call it otherwise. (Which is to say, Tennessee whiskey could be sold as bourbon, but not vice-versa. I believe the same can be said for Gin/Vodka btw.) Details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey#Legal_requirem...

Also, in my experience, it's a lot easier to find top-grade bourbon than it is to find Traditional Balsamic Vinegar and I say that living somewhere with state-controlled ABC stores (NC).

That's fighting words about Tennessee whiskey where I'm from. ;)

Also, yes, the legal qualifier I forgot (because I just assume it, given where I'm from) was the post-Rectifier term "straight Bourbon", which has:

1) Stricter Age requirements. Which most Tennessee whiskey likely doesn't meet, though without age statements who is to say, eh? Charcoal goes a long way to cover immaturity, which is why it was in the Rectifier playbook in the first place. None of the mass labels today are probably dumb enough to sell anything Rectifier bad like 6 weeks old charcoal vodka, don't get me wrong.

2) Straight Bourbon also has very strict additive rules, which Charcoal definitely doesn't meet.

> Which most Tennessee whiskey likely doesn't meet

Actually, Tennessee whiskey is required by federal law to be straight Bourbon. The legal wording is "a straight Bourbon whisky produced in the State of Tennessee".

As of 2013, the Tennessee state legislature also requires that Tennessee whiskey be charcoal-filtered through the Lincoln County Process, with exactly one distillery grandfathered in. If charcoal didn't meet the requirements of straight Bourbon, then it would be illegal to sell anything as Tennessee whiskey because that would mean nothing could simultaneously meet the state and federal requirements, and that's obviously not the case.

Tennessee and Kentucky fighting over who makes the better whiskey is as silly as the Hatfield and McCoy war.

Just pour me a finger or two of Old Grand-Dad BiB neat, you drink what you want, and let’s call it a day. :-)

Well, a lot of the Hatfield and McCoy war did cross that border a few times, so might be related. ;)

Mmm, Bottled-in-Bond, an even stricter legal term than "Straight". I'm glad that Heaven Hill has been bringing that term back into vogue and it is getting some of its recognition and glamour back after having been demoted to the bottom shelf (only somewhat unfairly, and partly Heaven Hill's fault in the first place).

Technically speaking gin is just flavored vodka, though the flavoring mechanism is different from what most people think of as "flavored vodka" (flavored via distillation rather than addition of artificial flavor).

It’s specifically flavored with Juniper berries though right? i.e. All gin is flavored vodka but not all flavored vodka is gin.

Traditionally it’s a mix of juniper and other botanicals, but I don’t think there’s any formal definition that it has to be juniper. I doubt any producer would label a non-juniper-based gin “gin”, though; so much of the flavor that customers think of as being what makes gin gin comes from juniper.

EDIT: scratch that, looks like in both the EU and US a spirit’s “predominant flavor” must be juniper in order for it to be labeled gin. I’m not sure how/who makes that judgment, though.

I think you can be called gin if you're flavored with any botanicals, doesn't specifically have to be Juniper.

Bruni Collin's is very citrusy Spanish gin, I don't think it has juniper in it. Tastes bloody amazing.

Steaks from Mc Donalds burgers are not fake. They are pure beef.

That analogy doesn't work on any level. Nobody buys a burger, let alone from McDonalds, expecting a steak. And they are indeed all beef, while cheaper balsamic isn't all grape must.

What does that even mean?

These days, it tends to mean pink goo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_separated_meat

That page starts with "Not to be confused with Pink slime" and later goes on to say "mechanically separated beef is considered inedible and is prohibited for use as human food".

McDonalds doesn't use either one, and stopped using the "pink slime" stuff in 2011: https://www.cnet.com/news/pink-slime-in-burgers-mcdonalds-hi...

> "McDonald's does not use lean beef trimmings treated with ammonia, what some individuals call 'pink slime,' in our burgers, and hasn't since 2011," McDonald's website also stated.

They don't use ammonia anymore, sure. Thats hardly the only pink slime, or mear glue out there.

No one needs meat glue for hamburgers.

Your link says it has not been sold for human consumption for 15 years. And LFTB has not been used in fast food for five years: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-separation/

dude it's "ground beef"

https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/dude-it-s-ground-b... https://newfoodeconomy.org/bpi-pink-slime-ground-beef-usda-r...

The USDA only approved that in December.

I strongly suspect McDonalds can't change their processes and supply chain quite that quickly, nor are they likely to take the PR hit now.

DOP balsamic vinegar tastes quite different from anything you’d find on the shelf. Comes in a round bottle that no one else can use and naturally as thick as syrup. I assume this is what OP is referring to.

$100–$200 per 100ml, but very much worth a taste (if you can swing it). I know of only a single retailer who has it stocked in the Bay Area. Mostly you have to go to Modena to get it.

Although it is very, very expensive, I have to add that you don't need much of it, and it has a very long shelf life.

Yeah, ours have lasted us half a year to a year! This isn’t the kind of balsamic that you would use as an ingredient, but one that you drip judiciously on meats and cheeses. The taste is very strong.

Given the debacle of how much "Italian olive oil" isn't actually olive oil, I am dubious any product that claims to be both "Italian" and "authentic".

You can find real orange juice in any store as well.

Most of it is acide orange fruity sugar concentrate diluted in water though.

Most of it is acide orange fruity sugar concentrate diluted in water though.

The vast majority is 100% orange juice, either not from concentrate, or re-hydrated (sometimes claimed to be "artificial" because they also add orange juice zest or oils).

To go back to my original, I can find traditional balsamic in multiple major grocery stores in my city. It's very expensive for a usually tiny bottle, but if you want it it isn't terribly hard to find. You can buy it on Amazon any hour of the day. And if your standards aren't quite so high, balsamic vinegar of modena, usually with just two ingredients (grape must and white vinegar) can be found everywhere for little, tasting marginally different. Italy considers and regulates either of those as "real".

We see the same gatekeeping claims with parmigiano-reggiano: Someone avails themselves on the Kraft green "parmesan" and then tells everyone else about how they've never tasted the real thing, it's so exclusive, etc (but, of course, they have that one time). Never aware that the cheese aisle has big blocks of 100% real, certified, regulated, straight from the source Parmigiano-Reggiano. This same discussion is occurring regarding tomatoes, as if having eaten a ripe garden tomato is some exclusive experience (rather than completely banal and experienced by virtually everyone).

It's not about exclusivity, it's about awareness.

> This same discussion is occurring regarding tomatoes, as if having eaten a ripe garden tomato is some exclusive experience

Well, I ate many ripe garden tomato, and not it's not some exclusive experience. They are still not as good as they should be. They are much better, but it's still a far cry from what everybody should be able to eat.

My message is not "I'm great, I know tomatoes and you don't". My message is "it's fucked up, we managed to screw up the production of something amazing". We are trading quantity for quality, a little more every day, and now the standard people have is very low. And so they buy so-so things for a premium, and are happy with it, or chose to buy the junk food.

A tomato from your garden can only be as good as the cultivar. If you plant shitty tomatoes and grow them well, they'll still be shitty, albeit fresh, tomatoes.

What are you trying to say? That the current trendy breeds of tomatoes aren't real tomatoes? Heirloom tomato breeds are very much in vogue these days as far as I know

Not OP, and I'm slightly exaggerating for effect, but I would say that if a fresh ripe tomato is not the best tasting food you've ever eaten, then you haven't had a "real" tomato.

I ate a whole tray of tomato sandwiches with vegannaise at my sister's wedding and I've been chasing that dragon ever since

What is the point of covering the taste of tomato with bread mayo, much less the dodgy vegan approximation? If you are going that far, crispy thick-cut bacon and fresh lettuce are required.

It's not something that can be explained to the uninitiated

I grew up in NJ and grew many varieties over the years, some are crap and others are near the best tasting thing. Part of the problem is all the good varieties don't ship well so you mostly will not find them in grocery stores. The other issue is the genetics drift after some years.

Our state university managed to release the heirloom varieties that the state was famous for.[1] My favorite were Ramapos.

[1] https://breeding.rutgers.edu/tomatoes/

tell that to my previous boss from chicago, his first italian tomato left him speechless and in amazement.

and it wasn't even a biological garden tomato, it was straight off the shelf supermarket tomato.

tastes varies so much by region that for some people the proper taste is alien.

likewise the reverse apply, most italian burger joint serves dry, tasteless mincemeat on buns that couldn't hold a candle to even the basic chains in Ireland, let alone the usa (good ole ricks' how I miss thee)

it's not gatekeeping, it's facing the reality of local produce, local expertise and local competition in mainstream foods as opposed to specialties.

You can buy not-from-concentrate 100% orange juice from multiple brands in most American grocery stores. In upscale grocery stores you can often find pressed-on-site orange juice.

"not-from-concentrate" just means it was pasteurized, stored, and transported without water being removed and re-added. It still generally goes through aseptic storage for up to a year, which strips out the flavor, which is then added back in chemically, yielding a consistent per-brand flavor. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/ask-an-academic-...

You need to go with fresh-squeezed to avoid the chemistry set.

I don't know. Florida's Natural says it contains only pasteurized orange juice. I don't know how to square that with the claim that it's full of artificial flavors.

https://www.floridasnatural.com/our-juices/original-orange-j...

Of course pasteurization changes the flavor some, but that's also why it's still safe to drink after they ship it to you and you keep it in your fridge for a month. nothing nefarious about that, nor would I call it inferior. It's a tradeoff.

scott_s is right - the "flavor packs" contain only chemicals extracted from the fruit, so they are still classified as "100% orange juice". But that doesn't mean they are "natural" or guarantee they are safe. And the companies will agree it is a tradeoff - there's no way they could meet the demand with fresh-squeezed juice. It requires a shelf-stable "solution" (pun intended).

For an extreme example (I don't think orange juice flavor packs are like this in intent or effect), apple and cherry seeds contain small amounts of amygdalin, which digestion turns into cyanide. https://sciencenotes.org/yes-apple-seeds-and-cherry-pits-con... Eating apples and cherries, even eating the occasional seed is not harmful, but processing could concentrate the amygdalin, making a very unsafe product that is still "100% apple juice".

Almonds even more so - the amygdalin is apparently an important element of the almond flavor, but some varieties of almonds have enough that they are poisonous with only a few (apparently tasty!) nuts http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/food/fo-almond20

Because the flavors are extracted from fruit. (Does it make a difference, given that the chemicals are the same? No.)

Yes you can, but that's not the majority.

And even pressed juice, something I actually buy regularly, usually tastes so-so. It's ok.

It doesn't have to be.

If I walk 15 minutes, I can get to the houses of somes friens. Once a year, for a few weaks, they get oranges in their garden.

From it you get juice that children will choose over coke, grenadine, etc.

Of course, the oranges are ugly, small, annoying to press, and appear only a short period of times in the year.

It's not something you want for industrial purpose.

When we reach industrial scale, a good deal of quality goes away. Now for a chair, I don't mind. I think society is not worst because of it.

But for food, it's a double edge sword. On one hand, we can feed more people. On the other, we have an obesity epidemic because people crave sugary junk food. And I don't think it's their fault.

You have access to all the non-concentrated orange juice you could want, but somehow it's a problem that there's from-concentrate orange juice on the shelf. You also have to have access to orange juice from your friend's tree once a year, so somehow even the non-concentrated orange juice is also a problem because something even better exists in limited quantities.

This is snobbery, plain and simple. You're couching your complaints in terms of concern for better food for everyone, but you're actually dismissive of everything that isn't a luxury. Good for you that you can get orange juice from your friend's tree and buy $250 bottles of traditional balsamic vinegar. But these are not attainable for most people, and banning "fake" balsamic and bottled orange juice wouldn't fix that.

My opinion on luxury goods is that they're to be enjoyed, not to fuel an interminable contest of one-upsmanship. If you aren't rich, you can still buy a $250 bottle of "real" Balsamic vinegar and have a tasting party with your friends. Then you can go right back to the cheap stuff that's only 80% as good, but at 5% the price, and for the rest of your life remember the better flavor whenever using the cheaper stuff, and try to trick your brain into thinking that's what you have now. Or... you can just use it one drop at a time, and make that $250 bottle last 10 years.

Scent and taste are great memory triggers. If ordinary orange juice from concentrate can remind you of that one time you had really great fresh-squeezed orange juice in season, it's almost like you can have the good stuff all year round, without paying the same costs. If you're so rich that you can constantly chase after new memories and never savor the old ones, congratulations. But don't begrudge others their shortcuts to memories of past experiences.

I went back through the entire conversation and I couldn't find anything even remotely suggesting the parent was in favour of banning anything.

All I read was a claim that industrial-scale food production often leads to an inferior product.

The industrial scale food production is what allow more people access to the food.

> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store

...in a white affluent neighborhood. The real stuff is way too expensive to stock in the Sav-a-lot, to say nothing of even big chain stores. It would be like stocking $100 bottles of champagne.

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