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Comment by cicero | Hacker News Reader

> 10. Connect with nature and the universe at large... 18. Choose love.

Even better, seek the creator of the universe and the source of love. Many people come to the conclusion that since science has enabled us to understand so much about how our universe works, we can jettison the idea of a creator. However, the contingent nature of our universe and everything in it requires a cause that is not contingent, and religion, especially Christianity, has been telling us about that non-contingent cause for centuries. I urge people to seek out that cause by looking to the testimony of the generations of good people who claim to know this cause.

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> Even better, seek the creator of the universe and the source of love.

Is it the same non-contigent source of love that loves us so much that created hell and just in case we don’t love it back?

> testimony of the generations of good people who claim to know this cause.

The same good people who also claimed that we would burn for all eternity if we didn't nod along to their delusions of grandeur?

That's one interpretation. I'm more particular to the interpretation that hell is a fire that destroys a soul (true death, not eternal torture) which some scriptures suggest, or that hell is an afterlife with the creators love.

The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this: that, though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction for ever ... The righteous flourish like the palm tree, and grow like a cedar in Lebanon. They are planted in the house of the Lord, they flourish in the courts of our God. (Psalm 92:6-7, 12-13)

This world is full of injustice, but the message of Christianity is that injustice is temporary and justice is eternal. Every man has a choice between eternal life and eternal death. God wants life for everyone - that is why he gave each of us life. He gave us the ability to love, but we also have the freedom to hate. Heaven is eternal love; hell is eternal hate. You get to choose the path you want to take.

> the message of Christianity is that injustice is temporary and justice is eternal

The message of Christianity is that having faith in the blood sacrifice and reanimation of a savior figure is enough to receive pardon for all of one's inequities. I don't see what justice has to do with anything to do with it.

Maybe you should learn some serious theology rather than a caricature and then you would see what justice has to do with it. I would suggest St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas.

I couldn't think of something more pointless than seeking that which will never be found. No one knows and no one is going to know. We'd be much better off seeking understanding of our fellow man than looking for some "source of love". The only thing Christianity spouts more than love is hate. The bible is full of it. Who can seriously recommend Christianity as a "source of love"? Humanity will be much better off when we give up on the fallacy of religion.

The "hate" that comes from Christianity is more a response from challenges to a dogmatically held belief system. It's very similar from trying to have a rational discussion with a raw vegan or a libertarian. I'm generalizing in all cases as there are clearly rational people behind each of the three mentioned systems of belief, but it's all dogmatic and more religious in general than it is the overall premise to any of them.

It's people that make ideas bad, or respond badly, not the ideas themselves. Of course any ideas regarding eliminating entire cultures, raging war, or taking of life en-masse should probably not be acted on regardless of how much sense Thanos made.

Jesus says that if you seek, you will find.

The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that this structure we call reality is circles on circles on circles. It seems trivial to me to prove that there can be no start or end to reality, ergo no creator.

I've had some pretty profoundly comforting spiritual experiences in my life, but never one that involved a creator. Much more a realization that there is no time, no place, just a roaring hubbub cycling round and round because it's just so fun to spin.

> It seems trivial to me to prove that there can be no start or end to reality, ergo no creator.

Logically, there's no "ergo" here. We may still have OUR creator. As for who HIS creator is - it's for HIM to care, not for us :)

> As for who HIS creator is - it's for HIM to care, not for us :)

Why should we only care about one level of indirection? Or, taking the lazier approach, why should we even care about our hypothetical creator?

Because it's interesting! Other levels of indirection will become interesting too, as soon as we manage to do even the first step. BTW, the idea that there are several levels of indirection out there is not even controversial, if you use the analogy with programming concepts consistently.

I think the issue here is, once you have been properly brought up with faith, 'indoctrinated' so to say, it becomes part of your core personality. You can't live rest of the life without it, there would be a gaping hole in your heart and mind that screams to be filled in +-similar way heroin addict feels the need to get another fix.

On the other side, being brought up in environment where (a bit religious non-practicing) parents extorted 0 influence over me and let me find my own belief (or lack of it), I really don't have this 'hole', nor the need to put author on everything I see around me. Matter can self-organize pretty well on its own and we currently don't have a good mind capable of comprehending true complexity of interconnected reality of our universe.

I could cross over to faith group (as did my cousin who was brought up in similar environment and is now priest happily), but every single cell of my brain would have to be vaporized for me to be OK with it for rest of my life, when I see glaring proofs around me every day that tell me there is no creator in the form all major religions imagine/hope for.

And whether there is another type of creator, is a question that is not that important for me, since answer to it won't change a single thing in my life, nor my morals nor any behavior or decisions. We all (sane human beings) have a moral compass, and apart from the part about believing in one and only true god, it aligns pretty damn well with most religious moral doctrines.

I don't think true believers can ever come to state of mind to even seriously toy with the idea that there might not be immortal soul of them. That its only this world, and nothing more, no higher meaning or purpose. That we are not special, and universe will be just fine even if Earth is consumed by black hole tomorrow afternoon. They just can't do it and be happy full people anymore.

I can, easily, without a blink of an eye, and it feels great and empowering. Even if I may be wrong, which is not a bad outcome after all :)

Sorry for the long post, just putting down some observation between agnostic me and my fiancee who was brought up in pretty strict catholic ways.

Especially Christianity?

The belief in a higher power often runs counter to a state-centered culture. Personally, I lean more pragmatic and deist, but I see a lot of issues from both sides of this perspective.

Belief in and of itself in something more than one self can be very beneficial to overall happiness and well being. So can effort and work. There is so much one can do in and of one's self to improve their own lives. It's like when people complain about $other-culture$ destroying america (usually religious right or leftist/communists)... My advice is to approach interaction with others from the POV of best of intent. Not that you have to agree with their intent, only that you shouldn't presume intent or their pov.

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