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Comment by carlospwk | Hacker News Reader

I don’t think it’s accurate to call Oodi a library. It’s more of a communal space for citizens and a sort of a playground/hangout for kids. With some books. Maybe I’m a cranky old man but I don’t really enjoy these kind of open spaces. It’s noisy, too relaxed and not geared towards actual studying and working. Libraries in Finland no longer have any expectations for peace and quiet.

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Luckily are public libraries not run on gut feelings and personal semantics. The purpose of libraries in Finland is defined by the Library Act, which states that public libraries should provide[0]:

1) equal opportunities for everyone to access education and culture;

2) availability and use of information;

3) reading culture and versatile literacy skills;

4) opportunities for lifelong learning and competence development;

5) active citizenship, democracy and freedom of expression.

You might like a quite place to read, but if society pays it should get more than sleepy reading halls. I find that the fetishising of books and silent library spaces is a nostalgic fantasy championed by people that rarely actually use libraries, while they are unaware that libraries are the most used cultural institutions in many countries. There is not a single good reason to limit libraries to disseminate the printed book as the only document. Other than elitism.

[0] https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/2016/en20161492.pdf

Since when was studying a 'nostalgic fantasy'?

In the UK, libraries are something like social centres: unemployed people go there to read; retired people read the daily papers; people without the internet at home come to use the computers; children come after school until their parents finish work.

It's important that there are public spaces like that. It's a lifeline for some people.

But most public libraries in the UK are, for those exact reasons, very poor places to study.

>Since when was studying a 'nostalgic fantasy'?

Studying is not a nostalgic fantasy. Giving opinions on how public libraries should be run, without any relation to reality is. If you go through the library act I posted you will find that providing silent study places is NOT an object that Finnish public libraries should fulfil. It makes no sense to criticise public libraries for not providing what they shouldn't provide.People that want silent study places can go to academic libraries.

>retired people read the daily papers; people without the internet at home come to use the computers; children come after school until their parents finish work.

All things that would be less of, if the public library room were to be a silent tomb.

>It's important that there are public spaces like that. It's a lifeline for some people.

Exactly. The nostalgic fantasy I'm criticising carlospwk for is that public libraries are "noisy, too relaxed and not geared towards actual studying". Not really a position that fosters the needs of the diverse population of patrons.

>Exactly. The nostalgic fantasy I'm criticising carlospwk for is that public libraries are "noisy, too relaxed and not geared towards actual studying". Not really a position that fosters the needs of the diverse population of patrons.

I could have maybe worded myself better. I don't really care what people do in a library, I just wish it was silent and peaceful like it was before.

I kind of pounced on your comment, as I'm opposed to a restricted view of libraries. But I think I was a bit too snippy trying to get my point across. I'm sorry, didn't intent to call you out.

I actually had a laugh at myself just after posted my second comment. As had to break up a group of patrons where having a teleconference with multiple laptops, on speaker, in study section. Guess there is a limit even in noisy libraries!

>I find that the fetishising of books and silent library spaces is a nostalgic fantasy championed by people that rarely actually use libraries, while they are unaware that libraries are the most used cultural institutions in many countries.

I don't fetishise books. I welcome e-readers, computers and whatever devices you can use to gather information. It's great that there's a 3D printer and all kinds of facilities. I'm just sad to see one of the last silent public spaces to die off.

In my view libraries are simply evolving with the times, but perhaps I'm not yet quite so old after all. I like the idea that there's a public space for soldering, 3D printing, sowing, or just being.

I wouldn't really make sweeping generalisations on the state of Finnish libraries based on one modern example intended to be different. Besides, if we're going to have yet another library in the centre of Helsinki, why not make it different?

If you need to study the university library is just around the corner. Or the library of the national archives if you prefer a tomb-like silence. Or the one on Rikhardinkatu for the more classic milieu. Choice is good.

In the past few years I've been to public libraries in Espoo, Helsinki and Vantaa. They all have the same modern vibe as Oodi (although less glamorous buildings maybe).

>If you need to study the university library is just around the corner. Or the library of the national archives if you prefer a tomb-like silence. Or the one on Rikhardinkatu for the more classic milieu. Choice is good.

Thanks for these recommendations, I have to check them out. The only problem is that to go to a university library is that they are mostly (afaik) in the city center. Kind of a trek for someone from neighbouring counties.

Noisy? Have you been to the place? Yes, there are spaces inside where talking is allowed and encouraged, but there are many separate study halls where it's dead quiet and you can even book your own sound-proofed room if you want total isolation.

I've been there. In my idealistic grumpy old man world, I'd rather have the main area silent and if you want to have a chat, just book a room :)

Of course they haven't been there, that would defeat the purpose of ranting about something you know nothing about and ultimately don't care about either.

I'm curious, what made you write this comment? What's with the negativity?

Hmm. I feel that. I’m sensing a dichotomy here between understandings of ”library as a place of study” and ”library as a communal place of sharing cultural artefacts”. Since the latter involves a lot of other things besides books and the silence required for deep study thereof, maybe a new word not derived from books (liber->library for English, kirja->kirjasto for Finnish) would indeed be appropriate?

Disclaimer: been to Oodi and think it’s great. I’m not a regular user of libraries in any sense, though. I used to be, 20 years ago, and appreciate the current trend exemplified by Oodi as something perfectly befitting Finnish societal values and ethos as I understand them. Ymmv, of course.

I think those can quite coexist in the same space (especially if said space is a 100M euro building ;)). The library can function as that communal place of shared culture, and host cafés, exhibitions, concerts, rooms for community events, rooms with musical instruments (the facility I make the most use of in my library)... and also quiet study rooms and places to focus without noise or distractions. There is no incompatibility between these two aspects.

I have been in Oodi and there are a bunch of quiet places as well - perhaps not as much as classic libraries, but I had no problem finding a spot.

There are no such expectations since most of the libraries are a bit empty when there are no exams so it makes sense that some of that space is used for other means rather than allocating empty study rooms IMHO.

Oodi is in the most central place in Helsinki. I think it's perfect location for public space library where people and groups can meet and work together.

Helsinki has exceptionally good libraries for quiet studying. If you have a book and need to sit down, read and study, I would recommend National Library, Rikhardinkadun library or Kaisa library. All of them are walking distance from Oodi.

I agree, having visited a couple bigger libraries in a big city many times and there's such uncontested unruliness going on there every time - people talking loud on their phones, people shouting, listening to music on their phone speaker, large groups in communal spaces playing games or hanging out making constant noise.

Granted, these libraries had dedicated study or reading spaces but I guess I prefer the more traditional outlook of a library and it'd be nice if quiet was strictly enforced in libraries and they were not made into some hybrid public communal spaces with books, research and studying as an afterthought but that's just me.

> It’s noisy, too relaxed and not geared towards actual studying and working.

I visited not long after it opened when it was very busy, even then it seemed to me there were a lot of quiet places for studying?

Also it appears to me the same space could be utilized to stock much more books, which in my eye what a library should be continually striving to do. In general what makes libraries great are the size of their stock, the comprehensiveness and accebility of the catalogues and indexes, and presence of help-full librarians.

I was expecting more space for books when I visited Oodi for the first time as well, but I don't think the limited shelf space in this library isn't such a big issue because of the other libraries in the city. The Helsinki region libraries (http://www.helmet.fi/en-US/) all form a single network. You can reserve a book, and collect it at your most convenient branch.

Libraries are less geared towards study now, and more towards offering communal space, but they're still libraries. But it is a shame if they don't have a quieter space available too.

For example, in the 3rd floor the magazines section is right next to children's play area. Potentially noisy location.

https://www.oodihelsinki.fi/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Oodi_...

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