On Refusing to Disclose Your Salary in a Job Interview
bucks.blogs.nytimes.com
bucks.blogs.nytimes.com
Potential employers want to know your salary so that they can avoid paying you more than required. What's the required amount? The benchmark that's informally thrown around is 20% more than the last pay. It seems that's the magic number to convince people that it is worth the hassle of changing jobs, trying to fit into a new environment...
One thing they (the hiring people) also like to know is how long you stayed at a job. Using industry standards for yearly increments, based on your past salary, they can guess your starting point or even guess whether you have had any increments.
What they will then do is make an educated guess whether you are a sucker for punishment. If they can tell you've been in a job for some time without any pay movement, they've won. They know it must have been some tremendous push factor that made you want to leave, something along the lines that you're tired of not getting more monetary compensation or job satisfaction has fallen till unspeakable lows. Power in the negotiation swings to their side.
I think when negotiating anything, it is always best to reveal as little as possible. Your past salary is one of them.
On another note, and this is anecdotal evidence - employers who pay just enough for you to jump ship and join their company and NOT pay you for the value of the work you're about to do or that they know you can contribute, are most likely employers who will bleed you to death in the work environment.
This is happening to me currently
"Unfortunately, like many other aspects of my employment, my compensation is covered under NDA with my previous employer. I take my promise not to disclose very seriously."
If you did sign an NDA, in all likelihood you cannot disclose your salary without violating the terms.
Or, you could just be direct, like I was the last time I did interviews:
"How much do you earn at your current position?"
"The salary of an academic at a public institution, and I expect to be paid more if I work for your company."
I talked to my friend about it after and he was very surprised about what happened. Everyone else on the team liked me but the CEO nixed the deal claiming I was difficult. I think you need to be prepared for this kind of reaction if you choose to not disclose your salary. Though in retrospect, I'm glad I didn't end up taking the job. My friend left after a year after butting heads too often with the CEO.
I suspect that the agencies are aggressively trying to gather valuable salary data, for their own purposes.
I dislike this, it's not helping me find the best candidates, and it's not rewarding the best candidates accordingly (I want them to not have money as an issue so that they are not stressed at work about silly things outside of work... so I want to pay them more than they need to a point of comfort). In fact it closes career progression off from the candidate, as progression is usually paired with salary increase to acknowledge the maturity of experience and skills acquired.
As a result of this I flatly refuse to act on salary information and keep it out of the interview. I'm not interested in money and hope that the candidate isn't either... we'll pay well enough for it not to be a worry without paying too much that it is a burden too much for us. The rest of the game, other companies can play that.
I'm possibly naive.
[edit]If you're wondering, whilst I do entertain the process and do act on agency CVs, we've hired way more people directly (us finding them or them finding us) as the quality of the candidate is way higher. CVs are so bad at communicating passion, creative thinking, actual technical skill... even more so once an agency filters them.
The earlier one depends on who you're aiming at, but go follow the people you want to work with, engage in them and if they ponder ideas try fleshing them out or producing prototypes and blogging about it... it will get their attention.
The latter one is a question of where we're likely to look. My preferred option at the moment is IRC dev channels for the specific skill I'm looking for, or a search of github for projects that are somewhat related and then approaching those people. If you do the github route then make sure there's a way that people can get in touch... leave a readme markdown with email address, and ideally a link to a fuller profile page (just not one that requires a login... don't link to facebook).
Also on the "we'll find you" route would be open source projects related to the area in which you want to work. Go fix bugs, lots of them... get yourself known amongst those teams. Want to work in a devops shop? Then fix Puppet and Cobbler bugs and make well-made Puppet scripts. Want to work in a rails team? Then go find some large open source rails project or rails itself and get known there.
This all falls into networking of course, but this isn't meet for a beer networking, it's doing stuff that we're mutually interested in... constructing the opportunities to cross paths. It works.
Thanks again.
Alan
Recruitment based upon github activity seems to be popular among startups as well.
I'm currently working on a UK based startup that should hopefully make direct company-to-developer hiring easier for both parties (in the US you have StackOverflow's Careers site, but there's nothing really comparable for Europe).
I am at a certain level in a big company with a salary range that is quite large. Many people at my level earn £5000 - £7000 more than me, mainly because they have been around in the company a lot longer.
In my last interview, I was offered a job and the company offered me my current salary + about £5000 (I was honest about what I was earning when they asked). Now, being that many of my collegues were currently earning that for doing the same job as me, I always wondered if they would still have offered me a £5000 bump if I had exaggerated my salary by £5k to start with.
I guess I will never know, and I didn't take that job for other reasons, but the guy really wanted me to work there, and I got the impression that he was trying to tempt me in with an offer that is just big enough compared to my current salary, without really reflecting on my skills and what they were worth.
I decided then that my salary would be exaggerated a little to any agencys or interviewers who ask so I can try and negotiate a better deal, ethical or not.
However if they insist on me revealing my salary, I am going to assume its so they have try and gauge how much it would take to make me jump to them, which is (in my mind) on the same ethical level as my exaggerating my existing salary to try and negotiate a better deal.
However, if you're looking to move up, don't tell anyone. Let them give you a number, and you can then choose to negotiate. If you're getting 110 now and want to move to 120, but they offer 80, obviously this isn't a good fit, even if they could be convinced to go higher.
When a recruiter calls you, demand two things before spending time on an interview (even a phone one). Salary expecations, and details about the team, like the manager's name, or the specific product, or something. This will weed out the recruiters who just scan public job listings, and let you deal with the ones who are actually doing their job and playing matchmaker. It will save you a ton of time and stress.
“I don't pay good wages because I have a lot of money; I have a lot of money because I pay good wages.” - Robert Bosch
I've trained myself to start each conversation with the recruiter with the following: I will not divulge my salary information, and I will need at least 14 days from the time I get the job offer to decide. If you are up front it usually isn't a problem. Also it is best to get the hiring manager's contact information so you can potentially go over the recruiter's head. At the end of the day, the HM will care much more then the recruiter.
I would never dream of forcing someone to make such an important decision in such a short period of time.
Me: I insist on maintaining certain personal requirements when conducting any business. One of those requirements happens to be never revealing salary data.
Them: Not willing or able to respect my personal requirements.
Me: Goodbye.
It is funny how it is totally uncool to discuss your salary with your colleague, but you are expected to disclose it when asked by a stranger working for a competitor.
Though, using someone else's salary point as a reason for your salary is not really a smooth move. No two people are the same, and just because you make more or your friend makes more, doesn't mean one is better than the other.
If they don't now, they will in a few years. We had the same evolution here in Belgium & the Netherlands, late 1990's or early 2000's recruiters wouldn't ask overly let alone require it. Nowadays they try hard to get you to disclose. I think one of the reasons is what is cited above, for the statistics for internal use. In time they will get more sophisticated and they'll start asking.
Aside, isn't there a website in Denmark where you can look up people's salaries? Or is that in Sweden?
I still haven't been aggressively asked by employers what I make now, but I have been asked aggressively what I wish for (as in, you tell us first and we'll say yes/no/maybe).
Even Jack Chapman from "How to make $1000 a Minute" (highly recommended) is not sure any longer.
I currently tend towards telling what I want (because I want above average), it might be better to wait if you consider yourself sub-average.
I'm with everyone else that you don't want to work at a place so unreasonable that they won't hire you for something like this. I assume that if you asked them for a salary histogram for the position you're applying for, you'd get laughed out of the building. Maybe it would be help to mention that.
Never more then a 10% bump? That's just farcical. Are they afraid the sudden increase will lead to wild debauchery? {Rolls eyes}
1. Say your current salary is 20% higher than it actually is when interviewing.
2. Once you get a job offer say you are very interested in the position you just need $5k more to accept this position today . If they say no the 1st offer will still stand.
3. When yearly reviews come around, act grateful but slightly disappointed in the raise (unless it is HUGE).
If you feel these are dishonest that is fine, but the reality is that most companies will take advantage of you if you don't look out for yourself.
For example, If you interview for a position where the industry average is 60k and you say the range you are looking for is 45-75k. Your offer will be very close to 45k. Even though the company knows 60 is the industry average.
I have noticed a stigma, admittedly on low/no skilled jobs, of people asking for salary details as part of the interview process then accepting jobs without even knowing pay rate. Does this happen at all in software, I guess with new graduates some companies would give off the "we're doing you a favor in hiring you at all" vibe.
It was early on my career so I was making 40K. I applied for a job that I could do with my eyes closed. I aced the interview with flying colors. Then I got a call a day after the interview from HR and the first question was "May I ask what your current salary is?" I told them. Now before I say anything someone from within the company recommended me. He told me that the average for that position and title for the company is 55-65K.
The HR person low balled me at 45K. We talked and the highest she was willing to go was 48K, she would NOT budge above that. I did the standard, let me think about it and I'll get back to you. Called her back a few days later, with my case and she still would not budge, so I turned it down.
Don't mistaken, until they give you the offer and you are filling out HR forms, do not tell them your salary, that doesn't mean lie just tell them you dont want to reveal it. One of the things I have done is give them a range if they are really pushy, usually a huge range just to make a point that I dont want to reveal it.
I might apply for some more interesting jobs for a lower salary. Especially if I changed job area to something I didn't really know that well.
If I stop being a consultant, I'd probably be paid a bit less.
As long as I don't know what they pay to their employees (and thus have no reference point for negotiations) I certainly wouldn't give them my salary (and give them a nice reference point). It's an open negotiation situation, then. I have a hard limit below which I won't accept and some soft limit that I expect from the company. They have theirs. Then it's bracketing down until both are happy or the deal blows up.
noted that no one's really ever satisfied with their compensation, but the point being that it's not hanging over your head daily that the work you do is not commensurate with what they pay you relative to others.
I'd be interested in any real-life experiences others might have had similar to this and whether you've managed to avoid coming off as sneaky/deceptive/dishonest as a result.
Also, your initial salary at a company is just a starting point. If you come in low, then prove your worth, you will get decent raises.
On the other hand, if you negotiate your way to a high salary, and fail to perform, you are first against the wall when the revolution comes.
in china it seems that HR and headhunters really want to know about your salary information even before you're offered an interview, perhaps this is to save everybody time if say your expectations are widely over the range.
hr for each company typically gets a benchmark against other companies for a certain position, this offers them a range, high, low, average. the question really becomes where they place you in that range, if you tell them what you're currently making, they'll probably just throw you a standard overage on top of your current and make sure it fits the range. if you don't tell them what you're currently making, they'll just try to guess where to put you in that range, if the hiring manager really wants you then you're probably in luck, this also has advantages if you're relatively certain that you're underpaid as you could see increases well over your current salary + overage.
either way, i don't believe in lying about your salary even though you know they probably have no way to check.
The two worst cases are that you lose the offer (because you're too expensive or too cheap) or get a low offer (because they are willing to pay more but decide to base their offer on your previous compensation). If you go your separate ways, you are free to start the negotiation process all over again with another employer.
Disclosing your compensation to a recruiter is an absolute no. You are instantly and immediately disclosing your compensation to every employer, for all time.