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Comment by webmobdev | Hacker News Reader

In India, Apple continues to screw itself with its short sightedness by insisting on credit / debit cards for all Apple Payments and refusing to integrate itself with India's many innovative digital payment systems.

Even though I have wanted to pay for a few games and 1 or 2 really good apps, I can't because Apple doesn't accept my indian cards nor other alternative indian payment systems.

Nor can we buy iTunes / App store credit online. Nor are we permitted to use iTunes / App Store gift certificates from US or elsewhere.

Personally, I wonder if this is because:

1. The central bank's (RBI) rule that financial data of indians should be stored in india.

2. Indian payment systems make it difficult to bill someone automatically (without the involvement of the payee).

3. Indian payment systems prevent "leakage" of your "credit worthiness" / credit rating, unlike credit cards.

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It's not just Apple and India. As an European it is incredibly annoying to spend money at US "startups" (loosely using this terms, this included businesses that had been in operation for 10+ years); I cannot use Giropay, Sofort or SEPA Debit, I have to use a Credit Card. And I can't even use a safe prepaid credit card, I have to use a "real" credit card or else my account gets banned (mailgun did that to me, there was no warning prior and I had to go through support to find out and get unbanned).

It really makes one notice how many startups never ever spend a singular thought on overseas markets, or if they did, only about the scary regulations, not the payment systems.

Honestly, as a fellow European I never heard of those. Not even in passing.

But I did try to pay with a card in the Netherlands at the biggest local supermarket: - Visa not accepted - Mastercard not accepted - Amex not accepted

They only accepted payment using a local card that I've never heard of.

Obviously had no problems with those cards anywhere else in the developed world. Except for Europe.

So yeah, Europe needs to get their shit together and start accepting and issuing the same card as the ROW.

And then all problems go away.

> But I did try to pay with a card in the Netherlands at the biggest local supermarket: - Visa not accepted - Mastercard not accepted - Amex not accepted

I don't know where you went to, but I've never seen a store that accepts cashless payments and doesn't accept Visa.

They might not accepts cards for low amount purchases, due to the fees, but that's another thing.

Albert Heijn, the largest Dutch supermarket chain does not accept Visa or Mastercard debit cards for any sort of payment.

I've bought stuff there and I don't remember paying cash. I only have Visa debit/credit cards.

> Europe needs to get their shit together and start accepting and issuing the same card as the ROW.

No they don't - there is no reason for a country to accept the payment system of another country. Priority should be to pay using local currency or using the local payment system.

Control over one's monetary system is essential to maintain the sovereignty of a nation. As is the right of a citizen to pay (or accept) cash or do transaction using other legal alternatives.

(That said, I understand your frustration as we are all complaining about the same thing).

In Germany there is also the Girocard (formerly EC Card), which largely uses SEPA Debit. Almost all European Countries use some form of SEPA Debit to power their card systems.

I don't think Europe needs to get their shit together, I'd rather if POS terminals would accept more payment systems. Credit Cards are not the world currency.

When you put it in context, there's a handful of people using all kinds of local systems. Then there's hundreds of millions if not billions that use the other well-established systems.

Regarding credit cards, very few Visa and Mastercard are credit, especially in Europe.

> Regarding credit cards, very few Visa and Mastercard are credit, especially in Europe.

I am sure the same is true in India too - most are debit cards. The monopoly, the high fees they charged and the profit ending up in a foreign country was the reason that the indian government launched their own payment and card system. Visa and Mastercard were forced to lower their fees to remain competitive. (And now they are complaining and lobbying the US government to pressurise India to ease their new laws regarding data storage in India).

Credit card transactions have much higher fees. By accepting them you would put a burden on all of your customers who are not using them.

Debit card transaction fees' are much lower.

Still, the solution to this problem would be to charge the client whatever Visa or Mastercard is charging as an extra. A practice I've encountered before in small shops in London, banned across the EU due to clients facing unexpected charges at the end of the process.

The practise would be legal if the fee was visible before paying with the card, ie you put in the card and then the PoS terminal adjusts the price according to the card type so the cashier can tell you the true final price if it happens.

That isn't supported in any PoS system I know of. Not in Europe atleast.

Wish I could find it, but I read an article recently about all the work Amazon is putting into India, working with small traders to handle ordering, payment and delivery in person etc when you can't rely on things like the postal service or easy access to online payment. It makes for an interesting contrast to what you describe as Apple's lack of local awareness.

> when you can't rely on things like the postal service

FYI, While Amazon is really serious about India and is doing some good work there, the Indian Postal Service is really good and reliable. In fact, even Amazon uses the indian post to deliver to remote areas where they don't have have amazon delivery offices.

That's good to know.

Something I found interesting was the problem of many rural people not really having a formal address. It's so easy to take for granted that everyone has a house number and street with some kind of postal code, in in-fact that they even have a name with a given and family part. You can't always rely on these sorts of things because the world is big and wonderful and full of variety.

Uber integrated with local payment processor Paytm and they are doing excellent. Apple may be "in their own world" to accept paytm terms, feels more of arrogance issues to me.

They don't need to use PayTm - they just need to integrate Apple Pay with India's payment infrastructure. They just don't want to do that as they may come under RBI's regulation and other indian laws.

According to media coverage, Apple put the UPI integration on hold due to "regulatory issues". That's mainly RBI data localization requirements ([1] on your list).

> I can't because Apple doesn't accept my indian cards nor other alternative indian payment systems.

Read this: https://www.isaumya.com/paypal-google-wallet-indian-debit-ca...

I use my SBI international debit card for apple music, and used HDFC international card before. Domestic card doesn't work and you need special activation. It wasn't possible to use SBI card two year before. Also, almost all credit cards are supported.

The link is quite useful - thanks.

My issue is that I prefer to pay online using net banking. And I have opted for a RuPay debit card (not Visa or Mastercard). I don't see why I should get a specific card from a specific bank to do transactions with Apple - it's just plain ridiculous!

You can't buy iTunes gift cards with any of those payment systems?

Not online. It requires you to go buy a card with a value of <not the cost of the app>.

I bet people who really need it top their accounts up (can you do this in the Apple store, or is it left on the card?) but you can imagine how much of sales are impulse purchases.

No, not in India.

=> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8487762

So there is no way for you to buy anything of the appstore?

You can. You just need a credit or a debit card. Personally I’m fine with it. I don’t know if Apple has integrated with any payment processors apart from credit card companies anywhere else in the world anyway; expecting them to do it in India would be a bit strange.

This doesn't sound like they're expecting anything:

> In India, Apple continues to screw itself with its short sightedness by insisting on credit / debit cards for all Apple Payments and refusing to integrate itself with India's many innovative digital payment systems.

It just sounds like they see it as a shortcoming of Apple's payment platform which affects the adoption of paid items in India, which seems like a fair evaluation.

> expecting them to do it in India would be a bit strange.

Why - one of their strong brand values is that their products are "user-friendly" because they listen to customers. So I don't see anything strange in making it easy for their customers to spend money on their platform, as it would only earn them more goodwill, not to mention increase their profits.

Only certain international debit cards and credit cads are accepted.

Last I checked, nothing the old iTunes Store infrastructure touches including the App Store takes Apple Pay either. For that matter, neither does the Online Apple Store app, at least as of May last year when I last tried it.

I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Apple to stop repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to anything at all to do with their e-commerce platform.

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