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Comment by malvosenior | Hacker News Reader

Working and actually taking advantage of the performance I paid for are two different things.

This is a very dismissive attitude that embodies the problem with Wayland. Millions of gamers absolutely do need that acceleration they paid for, it's not "vanity".

> We don't have the same value system.

I just want a usable Linux desktop that leverages the hardware in my machine. The "values" here seem to be: we acknowledge the extra work required to support mainstream graphics cards, we just don't want to do it and it's really your fault as a user for buying it/asking us to support it.

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No, they don't. I'm a gamer myself (infrequently these days to be fair). You can have excellent performance with maxed out settings on big ol' 4K displays... on last year's GPUs, which work fine with Nouveau.

>it's really your fault as a user for buying it/asking us to support it.

Yes, I'm soooo sorry that I don't want to do free work to help you prop up a company that lives to make me suffer as a developer...

I'm clearly exagerrating here but I hope the point is made. Like the article says, just keep using X, I don't care.

Again, you are completely ignoring people's use cases with smug glib replies. I assure you Nouveau absolutely does not work fine with newer cards, and never will, because those cards are locked into a low power state in Nouveau. (Due to nvidia firmware fuckery). We are talking about 10% (if that) of the performance levels VS the closed drivers. This absolutely, unquestionably, makes a huge amount of intensive 3d software (not only games) completely unusable.

If you are wondering why people are pissed about wayland, its precisely awful attitudes like this that sweep aside their real concerns and use cases with broken ideas that don't work, have never worked, and likely never will work.

Don't expect people to be on board when you so blatantly don't care about their needs.

I don't care about their needs. I've made this clear many, many times. But I do care about the needs of many thousands of users who choose not to reward abusive companies by buying their products.

You can keep using X with Nvidia. It's not my problem.

So perhaps you should complain less when people are hostile about wayland, because this is one of many aspects of how completely inadequate it is as an X11 replacement.

It doesn't make sense to be hostile about Wayland just because you can't use it due to your poor choice of graphics hardware. X still works. Just use that! No one needs to get upset.

wayland's plan is to superseded then depreciate X11 (ie X11 stops development). Again, you understand this and are just being glib and offering solutions _you know to be broken_ (because getting rid of x11 is the entire goal of wayland to begin with).

There is a ton of dishonesty underlying your arguments, and you sure as hell don't do any favors for Wayland, or how people perceive it when you use dishonest bs like this.

It is then up to Nvidia to find a way forward, once X11 development stops. After all, they monopolized driver development for their GPUs, so when something breaks, they get to keep all the pieces.

This is the real answer. The Wayland devs are the X11 devs. When the music stops and X11 development ends Nvidia is going to have to make the choice between supporting Wayland or dropping support for graphics on Linux.

Maybe your misconception TFA is debunking is that wayland centers your use case. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh, cool, what kind of games are you getting playable performance (60+ fps?) with? I was under the impression that nouveau was basically unsuitable for modern/AAA videogames, maybe I need to reevaluate!

Well, like I said, I don't game much. But recently I've been playing a little bit of DOOM at 4K on Vulkan via Xwayland using AMDGPU and have had no issues. I also had success in playing Final Fantasy X with PCSX-2 recently (at 1080p I think, but I'm pretty sure I had room to spare in terms of performance anyway). I also play osu! fairly often, but that's not exactly graphically intensive.

> No, they don't. I'm a gamer myself (infrequently these days to be fair). You can have excellent performance with maxed out settings on big ol' 4K displays... on last year's GPUs, which work fine with Nouveau.

I don't have a horse in this race because I still do all my gaming on Windows (literally the only reason I still have a win10 license), but I think this is generally true. Up until last year I was playing current titles on a GTX-660Ti on high settings (not ultra) and was getting very reasonable performance. I now have a 1070 and a 4k monitor and it can play all the titles I own on ultra settings in 1440p @ 60 hz. It can't really push ultra in 4k @ that refresh rate, but I think people who need those settings are a pretty small minority at this point. It's important to remember that the market for desktop computer games has taken a back seat to the console market for a long time. Many, if not most, current AAA titles are developed for consoles first, and consoles are all running hardware that is a couple of years old at this point. Anyway, keep up the good work!

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