There is a difference between an open mind and a hole in the head.
Think of it through the lens of emergence, or the shotgun effect.. The more competing, different theories that are out there, the more likely that we will get closer to the truth. This allows future researchers to draw from a larger pool of diverse thought.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
Propaganda and asymmetric warfare trying to disrupt the information commons is something to be afraid of.
The idealistic tropes that you are quoting are not born out in real-life experience, and we have some large eveents of the last 100 years that make us wary of people who use propaganda as warfare tactics.
In the short term, propaganda can get an entire country of people to do just about anything. In the long term, people come back to themselves and tell the charlatans to take a hike. The big danger, as borne out all across history, is to invest concentrated power in someone to take care of the problem. People like Cincinnatus are rare, and most people don't give up power once they have it.
The public discourse will eventually relegate the nutters. Lose Free Speech, not just in the letter of the law, but in the spirit throughout society, and you lose the public discourse. That's not somewhere we want to go.
Look at the comments, you'll see that people are more than willing to take it upon themselves to ostracize independent thinkers and skeptics.
Look at the article and how it's been upvoted on HN because of the premise of how evil and ridiculous it is.
Why do you believe "independent thinkers and skeptics" should be allowed to disagree with the status quo, but that disagreeing with them is tantamount to censorship and restricting speech?
>Look at the article and how it's been upvoted on HN because of the premise of how evil and ridiculous it is.
Yes. People believe it's ridiculous... and meanwhile plenty of skeptics believe mainstream science is ridiculous.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't support criticism and not expect criticism in return.
Disagreeing and debunking is fine. Deplatforming isn't. Trying to garner emotional sentiment against people without rational argument is a bit beyond the line. Throwing around headlines to create emotional associations is a bit beyond the line. Discussing the facts is good.
and meanwhile plenty of skeptics believe mainstream science is ridiculous.
There are some far left progressives who would deny all evolutionary biology in order to completely deny biological sex differences, primarily on ideological grounds. I find that just as bad as denying evolution on ideological grounds.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't support criticism and not expect criticism in return.
Criticism is fine. Engaging in that in good faith is supporting Free Speech. Deplatforming and tactics for silencing argument aren't fine. Those go against the spirit of Free Speech.
No-one can stop Thiel from funding whoever he likes; they would just like to be sure that it doesn't go unnoticed that this journal reads more like "Peter Thiel's Journal Of Collected Contrarianism That He Personally Paid For Due To Some Probably Totally Legitimate Reason" and less like "Inference: International Review of Science.”
Even if we could, we shouldn't. It's important that everyone feels they have a voice. Even people who are wrong should get to participate in society and have rights.
No-one can stop Thiel from funding whoever he likes; they would just like to be sure that it doesn't go unnoticed that this journal reads more like "Peter Thiel's Journal Of Collected Contrarianism That He Personally Paid For Due To Some Probably Totally Legitimate Reason"
That's fine. Un-personing to silence isn't.
That is very apt.
Thiel's thumb on the scale is something that should be disclosed, but I don't think anyone is calling for censorship.
Likewise, we don't want to encourage the habit of not thinking, not reading, and just going by emotional name association. To quote one of Frank Miller's more popular characters, "These of the tools of the enemy. We do not need them. We will not use them."
In theory we should never have the habit of not thinking/ not reading... it's worthy. But with finite resources - and being mindful of the prospect of swallowing stuff that's just out there to shift the window of acceptable dialogue - you might do well to be selective. If you were reading about racial justice in the USA, you might read both left/liberal/libertarian/conservative thinkers, but would you feel the need to make sure you give perspective from Stormfront a good evaluation too?
When I first got to the Bay Area, I met a Thiel fellow. It was interesting, let me say that. Don't think I don't roll my eyes at some of what Peter Thiel spends his money on. That said, contrarians need to be able to have a voice. This is the only way they might eventually be convinced.
If you were reading about racial justice in the USA, you might read both left/liberal/libertarian/conservative thinkers, but would you feel the need to make sure you give perspective from Stormfront a good evaluation too?
I'd prefer not to read the last source. The few times I've tried, I've only lasted about 2 paragraphs and half a minute. However, understanding why the extreme fringe thinks as they do, and how they fit into the larger historical perspective is important. Extremists get a foothold when experts stop explaining, when discourse breaks down, and silencing is practiced instead. Extremists especially should get freedom of speech. It's quite instructive how both far extremes manage to resemble each other.
Is it possible to have a discussion in public without something being labelled as 'propaganda' because it's not perfectly consistent with the current popular orthodoxy?
Maybe we should just let these guys meander through a few ideas on their little site before getting into Nazis, Communists and World Wars. :)
I think the world would be much better off if we could have functional, substantive discussions about Nazis, Communists and World Wars. Those are all harsh outliers of where groupthink can lead entire countries. As groupthink is one of the hardest things to remain aware of and truly think about, these outliers are something we should be able to talk dispassionately about. (Much as the educated portion of the population has embraced the utility of being able to think and talk calmly and rationally about sex and sex education.)
Wasting time and money that would be better served publishing better science. Not sure if these articles qualify, but it's a legitimate concern.
And points off for not being uncharitable and flippant. If this is the quality of discourse I can expect from you, this will be my last reply.
If not, and other researchers can back it up - then you don't have to be afraid of an existential threat! win-win
Being a scientist means you have to adopt a mentality of passive observation and openness to being wrong, otherwise you'll just fall into the trap of confirmation bias which necessarily results in bad science.
Additionally, click-bait is a thing, just pushing a headline with "based on a scientific paper" out there can be dangerous - there is the old adage that a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
If you want persuasive arguments, check out potholer54's channel on YouTube. He's demolished just about the entire corpus of anti-climate change propaganda.