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Comment by Loughla | Hacker News Reader

I don't care for unlimited PTO. Here's why:

When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms.

Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system.

It just tastes bad. I've worked in both environments, and I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off.

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Part of why I left my last job was due to its “unlimited PTO” policy feeling more like a “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off” policy. I now work for a place where I have a set amount of PTO that accrues so I feel more entitled to using it without feeling bad about it because if I don’t then it’s gone.

Unlimited PTO is one of those things that sounds great to potential employees who have never experienced it. Until you get in and realize you end up taking way less time off than if you just had 15 set days or whatever.

> “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade every time you take time off”

That's the idea behind it. It's a huge red flag for me.

But it looks fantastic on paper. The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off. They'll never come and say "hey it looks like you took 5 weeks off this year". They'll just say "it looks like you're not realizing your full potential". So it allows for a lot more sinister manipulation and control.

It could even be coming from peers, managers, HR it doesn't matter. "Gee, so and so in on vacation... while we are slaving here at 8pm at night. - Haha. Of course he is, eye roll..." kind of stuff. And maybe the employee was having a family crisis and needed to spend time with their loved ones but it's not something they'll broadcast but people will imply various things and assume not the very best of intentions.

If the company is so darn generous, just give everyone 6 weeks off and make everyone take it.

> The problem is you don't know how you'll be judged if you do take the time off.

Exactly. It can also be incredibly inequitable. My previous job had a rule about not “abusing” the policy, but no one ever defined what abuse looked like.

One of the final straws for me was hearing from someone from another department that they had taken 5 weeks off over the last 12 months whereas I worked over several holiday weekends and spent time away from family due to the pressure of “needing” to get something done.

Yeah. I'm not opposed to the idea in principle. "Managing" my time off around business travel, projects on a deadline, etc. can be a real PITA. (And, to be clear, I've taken essentially my full earned vacation--or have been paid for unused time when I've left--through my entire career.)

But, IMO, any company with this policy needs to establish some guidelines and management from the top down needs to walk the walk to show that they really expect employees to take 4-6 weeks off (or whatever) and stay home if they're sick.

Otherwise, it's just about keeping liabilities off the books.

Manager at BigCo here, that's exactly what I do in my "welcome to the team/company" email. We call it "untracked", not "unlimited" vacation, and I make that distinction clear also.

Untracked is a MUCH better term (especially paired with some general guidelines). Thank you for that.

> When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual agreement between the two of us, in objective terms.

> Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system.

TBH that sounds like the problem was that there wasn't a policy and they just said "unlimited PTO".

I loved having "unlimited" PTO. Our policy was, for all practical purposes, the same as any other PTO policy, except no accrual. I wasn't a manager, so I can only comment on my experience, but I took 5 weeks off in my first year and nobody said a word about it. I know a few people got "warnings" for taking a lot more than average, but it had to be a LOT, and it was still always approved. And then we got bought by a company with a terrible policy :(

A big problem I have with limited PTO is that it's a limited resource, so I hoard it because I don't want to "waste" it, and then I end up not taking much.

And I don't think I'm the only one. With the unlimited policy few people would work from their mechanic's shop, or the airport, or the doctor's office, or anything like that. Realistically they weren't going to be productive, so they'd just take the time off and not worry about it. They didn't work 4 weeks to earn that day off, so it wasn't a big deal.

I have had a very similar experience. I would take 5-6 weeks off per year when I had unlimited PTO. Now I work for a more traditional company and I often hoard my PTO. I find the idea of time off more stressful now as it's a finite resource (I suppose it was finite at my last job as well, but less clearly defined how finite it was).

It really shouldn't be called "unlimited PTO". Something like "unguaranteed vacation" would be more accurate.

I tend to agree with this point of view, but recently have started just taking more time off. At my current workplace I asked what their PTO policy was and everyone just kind of shrugged and told me to work it out with my manager. Which was admittedly concerning as there is 0 agreed parameters.

However this idea of "0 agreement" between employer and employee is starting to grow on me. Time after time and article after article we see employers screwing employees for various reasons, including incompetence. At this point it seems like finding a genuinely positive actor is as much a matter of luck as it is dedication. So I suppose it's time to change/

I no longer subscribe to workplace or employer loyalty. After working in the industry for ~8 years I can never see myself staying at a company for more than 4-5. I don't trust my manager, HR department, C-levels, policies, etc. Hell I tell people upfront in interviews that I'm a terrible employee but very good at my job.

Cycling back around to your points:

>Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between myself and workplace 'culture'.

>...I much rather prefer the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense related to taking time off.

I counter with: What workplace culture?

Edit: Formatting.

Can you quantify how many paid days off you took in the last year?

20-25 workdays. I know 4 specific weeks plus random appointments and things like tacking on a Friday/Monday to what would've been a 3-day weekend.

Startups love unlimited PTO exactly because of this - unused PTO is not a liability in the event of acquisition or employee termination.

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