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Technically, there is no VAT in the US. There is sales tax, and it can vary from city to city. I guess that is why it is not included in the price by default.

Yep; sales tax, VAT, GST, they are all pretty much the same thing. And the fact that in the US they vary by location was what I was alluding to.

> I guess that is why it is not included in the price by default

I hear that argument a lot but it does not really make sense to me. The place of purchase knowns what their tax rate is in their current location because the cash register has that information (and I assume this sales tax does not change very frequently?). So why not print out or display the prices with that tax included?

No, they are not the same thing. You pay VAT on the value added at each part of the process. So a retailer pays VAT to their wholesaler, unlike American state sales tax systems.

Yeah, but the retailer then deducts that VAT from the amount charged to the customer, so in the end it's the same, only the final customer pays VAT.

No. VAT is across the supply chain, provided they are all VAT registered. So as a business you only pay The net VAT between sales and purchases.

Er, that's what I said/meant? This is unlike US sales tax, which is only applied at the end, and on the entire value of the sale, not the value added.

Edit: Ok I see, the "you" I had in my post was confusing. VAT is charged on the value added at each point of the chain, again unlike sales/use tax.

Which is why I said 'pretty much'. In this discussion they can be regarded as the same thing.

That's fine for a local store, but what about a regional chain? Or even a national chain? What price to they advertise? Or do they need to do different advertising per tax district? (which could be city, county and/or state)

Do as the rest of the world does and include the tax in the price. Margins will obviously change between stores in different tax districts but arguably that phenomenon is already priced in today's profits: A store on the California to Oregon border has to price in the fact that their customer base could buy the same product with zero sales tax across the border.

McDonald's is offering a 99₵ burger as part of a nation wide promotion. Where I live (Florida) it's $1.06 with tax. In Oregon, it would be 99₵ (no sales tax). In North Carolina, it's $1.03 except Ashville, North Carolina has a 7% tax rate so it would be $1.07 there. What price does McDonald's advertise for their promotion?

99cent.

In Europe they have a 1 euro menu regardless of what country the burger was sold in (countries have different VAT rates). Some advertising is even shared between smaller countries that speak the same languages.

> What price does McDonald's advertise for their promotion?

I really don't care, it's their problem not mine. All I want is for stores, fast food places, etc., to be honest about the price I am to pay.

In Europe, including the UK, it is illegal to advertise only tax-exclusive prices to end customers.

This is a minor annoyance only to foreigners here on vacation. You quickly adjust to not having the tax included and it is something people in the US don't even consider unless they've traveled abroad. The system with the taxes included in the advertised price only really works when you have a national tax with no other taxes involved. No state or city will ever go for that and it really isn't bothering anyone since everyone is used to the system already.

If you want to rail against hidden charges complain about the restaurant welfare system that allows employers to legally under pay and fire employees for not making the majority of their money from tips

Dragging this back towards a HN topic, years back this caused a fight for PC computers stores. They argued that their main customers were businesses and so advertising prices "before tax" was expected by the trade customers. Others argued really most customers were hobbyists and so would pay the VAT price.

Obviously it's beneficial to be able to advertise the lower price, these days assembling your own PC from components must be much less common than it was back then so I imagine even if the decision went in their favour back then that's changed since.

In a world with tax-included prices, obviously they would advertise the local price in local media. In national media, who cares what they do? They could put "$0.99 (prices may vary)" or whatever they choose. The headache of an advertiser should be the least of your concerns when dictating consumer law. (And yes, it is law in many countries. Consumer protection laws say that consumer pricing must include VAT.)

>Many western countries have very simple or near-automatic tax systems and I would argue that the tax you pay is actually much more visible to residents of such countries.

I think if you want to counter the poster, you need to give an example of a western country that has simple/automatic tax systems and have a lower tax rate than the US.

His/her complaint is primarily that if a system is too simple, it's much easier to raise taxes. You're giving exactly the example he/she is looking for - a country where it's easy and the tax is higher.

I believe that the income tax paid in California is higher than in the UK for the median household.

Now correct me if I am wrong, I have only filed tax in the US for a single tax year so I might be missing something. But for the median household income in California of around $66,529, you would be paying an effective tax rate of around 24%. (using this website: https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#wWyPf...). And yes, I realize this is excluding deductions.

In the UK, the median household income is £27,300 and you would have an effective tax rate of around 19.6% (https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/), also excluding deductions.

Of course higher salaries attract higher taxes in the UK, but if the above is correct, then the average person should be paying less tax in the UK than in California.

not sure what point you are trying to make here. you single out one of the highest income states in the US and say the median household would pay less tax than the median family in the whole UK. sure, but families that made the equivalent of $66,529 in pounds (£51,699 at current exchange rate) would pay about 27% in taxes according to your calculator with the default settings. not sure what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from this.

>And yes, I realize this is excluding deductions.

That's a big disclaimer.

I'm not going to argue for a hypothetical. I actually ran the numbers once. My state's income tax rate is high, but lower than CA's. For my income (above median), one year I actually calculated my tax for CA (as in actually got the forms and filled them out).[0] Despite the lower tax rate, the my state's income tax was higher. The reason? CA has a lot more deductions for people of my income or lower. CA can get you in all kinds of other taxes, but not income tax.

Also, just checked. Other than the deductions, for single people, you hit the second highest bracket at a little over $8K in my state. To get to that same bracket in CA, you have to earn over $50K. CA tax rates are low for lower income people.

[0] It's a long story why I did this - it was not fun at all.

Of course, it's very difficult to directly compare such things for a single individual, never mind the median individual (you'd have to account for the fact that the UK taxes include medical insurance as well as a pension on one side and lower sales tax in California on the other side, and so on...).

My point was that taxes in countries where the tax return is automatically performed by the government aren't necessarily higher than in parts of the US. In other words, OP's comment above was nothing more than FUD.

> I'm not going to argue for a hypothetical.

Huh? But you said:

> [their] complaint is primarily that if a system is too simple, it's much easier to raise taxes.

which sounds pretty hypothetical to me! In fact this whole discussion is hypothetical!

> The reason? CA has a lot more deductions for people of my income or lower. CA can get you in all kinds of other taxes, but not income tax

To me, this sounds like a pretty good justification for a simpler tax system ...

Chile has both lower taxes and automatic taxation.

In 2019 they will even have automatic taxation for small businesses based on the statistical average for the industry and various signals.

So basically taxation based on machine learning.

You can take it or leave it - it's up to you.

And this also shows that simpler taxation and higher taxation has no relation to each other.

> you need to give an example of a western country that has simple/automatic tax systems and have a lower tax rate than the US.

How is a higher tax rate related to the government's ability to provide simple/automated tax returns?

Oh, right, it's not.

According to the Wikipedia page on VAT in the UK[1], while there are two rates and presumably everyone there knows them, there is a long arbitrary list of which item falls into the 20%, 5%, or 0% category. For example, it says "Biscuits (chocolate covered only)" are 20%, but "Smoking cessation products" are 5%.

Sales tax where I am has similar characteristics - I think most people are perfectly well aware (as I am) that it is generally 8%, but I couldn't tell you exactly which items are exempt, or what the modification is for prepared food or whatever.

So I think you are exaggerating (as people like to do) the difference between the US and the UK.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax_in_the_United_...

Completely disagree that it's an exaggeration. If I walk into a supermarket in the UK, it doesn't matter if I know that certain goods are exempt or 5%, because the amount im going to pay is already considered on the sticker.

There's no excuse for the sticker price not matching in the US.

Because it is listed separately, you know which rate you're paying. Isn't it good to have more information?

I am not 100% sure I get what you meant so I apologise if I misunderstood. But are you under the impression that the tax is not listed on the receipt in other countries? (it is)

My receipts show the taxes im paying. I don't think I've ever seen the tax listed separately on the sticker in the US, so ive actually got less information. Without knowing the tax rate of the area I'm in for the goods in advance, I don't know how much I'm paying