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Comment by aedron | Hacker News Reader

Quite a disagreeable post, in my opinion.

> Which leads me to the "but money can't buy happiness" position so many people have repeated over the years. Bull. Shit. Anyone who has ever said that simply doesn't know where to shop.

If happiness for you is about things you buy in shops, then you are a shallow person, and you are missing out. A lot. In fact you are poor, but in a spiritual sense. The next statement: "money spent on physical items can bring people a huge amount of pleasure" reinforces the impression that you have some concepts confused.

It's great to have cool stuff, and thanks for the probably sound advice on how to achieve that. You don't have to try to convince (yourself?) that this equates happiness.

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Eh, to each their own. If Troy enjoys expensive cars, what the hell. It's his money. I'm not into expensive toys either but I don't judge other people for "materialism" and feel superior about my woo-woo individuality / spirituality.

I would agree with Troy's conclusion that "money buys happiness," but take a different tack. Money buys financial security, and financial security buys avoiding many kinds of hardship and grief.

You can have money and be unhappy, and you can be evicted because you can't meet rent and be happy, but it's probably easier to be happy when you aren't worried about paying the bills.

Money buys financial security

I'm not sure about that, there seems to be plenty of research that shows people never really feel financially secure, no matter how much they have. Clearly there is a minimum standard you need to reach but I don't think that's what we are talking about here.

Having financial security and feeling like you have financial security are quite likely to be two different things.

The latter is more subject to the hedonic treadmill of "financial security means I don't have to change anything about my current standard of living" as opposed to "I don't have to live on the streets or worry about where our next meal will come from".

I could stop working today and we'd eat and live for the next 50 years just fine. It would absolutely be at a dramatically reduced standard of living. I think I have basic financial security, but many people (myself included) would answer a survey that they don't feel totally financially secure.

Money doesn't buy financial security, because financial security depends on your lifestyle. Rich people become poor if they are so materialistic that they income cannot satisfy their lifestyle needs, therefore money couldn't buy them financial security.

Money can buy you opportunity, but not every opportunity makes people equally happy. Some people love to travel the world and see places for which you need very little money, some people like to drive their kids to school with an expensive car so they can dick measure with other parents and get a boost of self esteem when people look at their cars. Mostly the insecurities and desires in our lives determine which opportunities make us happy.

Here's the argument I think you're trying to make: Financial security is, at least, spending below your income. Also: people are different and enjoy different things.

I agree with those basic ideas! You're not disagreeing with me there. In fact, I already made a similar remark in my concluding sentence:

> You can have money and be unhappy, and you can be evicted because you can't meet rent and be happy, but it's probably easier to be happy when you aren't worried about paying the bills.

The piece you're either not considering or ignoring — which my comment spoke to — is that, controlling for local cost of living, the higher your income is, the easier it is to spend below your income. Necessities don't scale with income. Lifestyle choices can, but by definition, they are choices and can be reigned in. It's hard to choose between rent and food, though.

So I think your response, "money doesn't buy financial security," mostly comes from inaccurately interpreting an intentionally simplistic subclause of a larger argument and taking it too literally and without context.

There's more to it than material consumption too.

Money buys the ability to follow expensive hobbies. e.g. skiing, travel, anything that requires lessons to pick-up as a skill.

Money affords the ability to travel at convenient times instead of cheaper off-peak schedules, so that you ultimately spend more time with your family and friends.

Capital investment can help creative pursuits, such as a well-stocked kitchen greatly increasing the amount of joy you can have when cooking, or the benefits of being able to relax with a home cinema/gaming/sound system that you can be truly immersed in.

Most importantly, it brings peace of mind. In my opinion one of the greatest freedoms is not having to worry about the future. Something you don't appreciate until you gain it, and something you could never imagine giving up once you've experienced it.

Don't kid yourself that you can't buy happiness. It won't dig you out of a hole if you have deeper issues, but it's definitely a significant platform to stand upon.

He is not saying all hapiness can be bought with money, but it's quite obvious that many things that make one unhappy can be solved with money, as also many things that make people happy are bought with money.

And I'm not even talking about objects. For most people having something good to eat and a warm cozy place to live is already happiness. A happiness most people in the world can't afford BTW.

> For most people having something good to eat and a warm cozy place to live is already happiness. A happiness most people in the world can't afford BTW.

That last sentence isn't true. The first sentence defines a standard of extreme poverty or below[0], which is happily far less than "most people in the world" in 2019.[1]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-population-in-extre...

I went from being very poor to above average thanks to the tech industry and at first it really seems that money solve all problems and bring happiness. Now I like to think about it as money make you live comfortable, healthy life but these things have nothing to do with happiness. They are important but you can be very comfortable and still unhappy. What makes you happy are good relationships with people and family, and achieving your goals (which might not be related to building wealth but more like helping your community or discovering the purpose of the universe...)

IMO:

Money doesn't lead to happiness, but no money can quickly lead to unhappiness.

Classic Paper on that Topic:

Dunn, Gilbert, Wilson - If Money Doesn't Make You Happy Then You Probably Aren't Spending It Right

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/danielgilbert/files/if-mon...

TL;DR:

1. Buy experiences instead of things

2. Help others instead of yourself

3. Buy many small pleasures instead of a few big ones

4. Buy insurance that's worthwhile

5. Pay now and consume later

6. Think about what you're not thinking about

7. Follow the herd instead of your head (sometimes)

8. Beware of comparison shopping

For those who don't like the format of this pdf and have a way to access academic resources, a better-formatted pdf is available there (pay-walled):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10577...

From memory, 4. is "Buy Less Insurance", at least they suggest that most insurances we want are not worth it, is this what you meant?

Troy is talking about using money to get more choices on health and helping people. That doesn’t sound like shallow stuff. But being unable to help yourself or others sounds like a place of despair.

It doesn’t take a lot of creativity to imagine how money connects to important things in life, such as buying opportunity and safety for children. Or having someone who spent years in medical training and debt hover over your loved ones (does anyone have a prerogative to a doctor’s time?).

Opportunity isn’t shallow. Choice and freedom aren’t shallow. Will your loved ones never experience tragedy or malady?

> If happiness for you is about things you buy in shops, then you are a shallow person, and you are missing out. A lot. In fact you are poor, but in a spiritual sense.

That's a fair point. From my understanding he was talking about "buying happiness" in a broad sense. Sure he did mention material goods. But also the ability take out time out and being with family and friends and not having to worry about making ends meet.

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