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Comment by oiuytgfyhujik | Hacker News Reader

biblo-ref: Journal of Ironic Internet Postings 1 April 2011

There is an apparently dwindling minority of people who would consider this to be sarcasm and not irony. For these few, irony is never merely logical negation. It necessarily involves unintended and opposite consequences flowing from the protagonist's actions. A short internet search suggests I may be the last of this kind.

The only problem I have with caveats like this is that on all the hundreds of occasions when I've heard someone say, "Actually, that's not irony," the subsequent explanation of what does qualify as irony has been different every single time.

This is additionally confounded by the fact that British people really do mean "sarcasm" when they say "irony." (At least, most of the British people I've spoken with do.)

> This is additionally confounded by the fact that British people really do mean "sarcasm" when they say "irony."

I've never experienced this in actual conversation with British and/or other non-US English speakers. But the internet definitions I'm finding seem to all include 'sarcastic but somewhat subtle' in the definition of ironic. For me the definitions of sarcasm and irony do not intersect. Sarcasm is intentional whereas irony is at best random or more often a signifier of implied 'fate'.

Irony certainly can be random or a signifier of implied fate in the case of literary/dramatic irony.

Verbal irony, which is closely related to but not identical to sarcasm (though there is quite a lot of debate on exactly the relationship among psycholinguists) is most certainly intentional.

    "I don't wear my seat belt because if I'm uncomfortable I'll drive more dangerously."

    "Sounds like you've really thought that one through."

Verbal irony, possibly sarcasm depending on whose definition you buy, but definitely intentional in any case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Verbal_irony discusses this further and refers to specific research on this topic.

Suggested motto for the USA:

"We don't understand sarcasm and we carry guns"

I concur. The distinction is important.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony:

"-Synonyms 1, 2. Irony, sarcasm, satire indicate mockery of something or someone. The essential feature of irony is the indirect presentation of a contradiction between an action or expression and the context in which it occurs. In the figure of speech, emphasis is placed on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of a statement; one thing is said and its opposite implied, as in the comment, 'Beautiful weather, isn't it?' made when it is raining or nasty."

Alanis Morisette's "Isn't it Ironic?" was an ironic tragedy for us all.

Actually I think 'Unfortunate' would have been the appropriate word in that song. Most of the situations described don't involve any direct negation of the protagonists intentions. The only possible qualifier is

'Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly

He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye

He waited his whole damn life to take that flight

And as the plane crashed down he thought

"Well isn't this nice..."'

... but the last line is still sarcasm, not irony.

Please clarify:

It's like 10,000 spoons, when all you need is a knife.

It's like meeting the man of your dreams, and then meeting his beautiful husband.

A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break.

Does the qualifier "it's like" affect its intent?

Take an example of irony--the story of Oedipus. Oedipus leaves his family specifically to avoid a prophecy that he would kill his father, and marry his mother. The action of leaving his home, by which he intends to stop the prophecy by removing himself from proximity to his parents, causes it to come true, because unknown to Oedipus he was adopted. Oedipus causes the prophecy to come true by accidentally returning to his biological parents.

So we have the action of a protagonist causing the opposite effect of what was intended--irony. The items Alanis lists are mainly really annoying.

Making sure I understand, is this 'irony'?

Alanis is a regional manager, overseeing several stores. Her office is located in a specific store. Alanis decices to institute a 'no smoking' policy on breaks for all stores, but not her own store (where her office is located - she loves to smoke cigarettes).

Corporate agrees and it becomes company policy. Impressed by Alanis's HR policy, they transfer her to an ailing store, where smoking is banned and she cannot undo corporate policy.

So, the protaganist must always make the action to be considered irony?

In traditional tragic irony, yes. If you look on wikipedia it seems the consensus is now that everything, more or less, is irony.

I'm late to the thread but Ed Byrne expounds hilariously on your point in this classic standup bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg

> Most of the situations described don't involve any direct negation of the protagonists intentions.

That was what I was pointing out.

You are being sarcastic.

Yes it is technically sarcasm - at least in common English usage. Since irony doesn't seem to exist in America I'm not sure if American-English makes the same distinctions.

For added convenience:

    @ARTICLE{oiuytgfyhujik:11,
    author  = {{oiuytgfyhujik}},
    title   = {{on: World's largest association of pilots boycotts body scanners}},
    year    = {2011},
    journal = {{Journal of Ironic Internet Postings}},
    note    = {\url{http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1885309}}
    }

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