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Comment by martythemaniak | Hacker News Reader

> I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's.

The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success, with no established car maker able to match them yet. It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.

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> It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.

Certainly possible. I personally think he's acting like a buffoon and I haven't been shy about stating it.

However, as I told another commenter in this thread, I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning, he's now more of a liability than an asset. It's not that he was never valuable or never deserved any trust - rather that he doesn't deserve it now.

Put another way: At what point does the goodwill he's earned expire?

I have always seen him as a bit like William Durant. His use expires when the company is no longer trying to grow at 2x every 3 years.

Alternatively, he could dramatically change his approach as the business matures.

> I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin initially got Tesla into existence.

True, but Elon Musk led their series A, which is also when he joined the company along with J.B. Yes Martin and Marc created the company, but it would not be where it is today without Elon Musk.

It doesn't always matter who initially created the company. For example one of the co-founders of Apple was Ronald Wayne, whom the vast majority of people have never heard of. He left Apple very early and sold all his shares back to Jobs and Wozniak for $800.

> with no established car maker able to match them yet.

The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster):

https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-...

https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr...

Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today:

https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...

Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers:

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric

https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/

https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html

https://www.e-tron.audi/en

VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform:

http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss...

https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-...

Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?

Kona will only be available in a small number of U.S. states and global regions, in limited quantities.

It is a compliance car, to reduce the emissions overall of the fleet they sell allowing them to sell more high profit ICE cars. They are likely losing money on each sale as well.

I think the Kona is a great start and wish it would have a better chance, but it is crippled from the beginning.

So you're arguing that Hyundai beats Tesla on price and efficiency even when Hyundai's not really trying? What will happen to Tesla when Hyundai really tries?

No, I'm arguing that they have to sell a certain number, otherwise face stiff penalties in the U.S. and Europe. Discounting the car and taking a loss is better than paying the fine.

On a positive note, it is a step in the right direction to rev up that part of the company, as they will need the experience for future success when they can no longer rely on ICE sales

The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla. While it makes a good commuter car, it is strictly not on the same playing field as a model 3, other than price and propulsion method.

> The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla.

Yes, I agree. Hyundai has better quality control than Tesla:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115659_tesla-model-3-q...

The quality also comes nowhere close to a Tesla. While it makes a good commuter car, it is strictly not on the same playing field as a model 3, other than price and propulsion method.

Agreed. The Kona's fit and finish is miles ahead of the Model 3, and the interior comfort is the same for...1/4 the cost of the Model 3? Tesla's got quite a bit of work cut out for it if it hopes for the $35k Model 3 to stand a chance in the marketplace, since it'll being facing a ton of competition by the time it comes out (if ever).

It's not nearly on the same playing field as the model 3 in regards to price.

The last time this came up, many people said that the primary reason to buy a Tesla was for Autopilot, which I have not yet heard of another manufacturer with an equivalent product.

I think another advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger station access.

I'd agree with you on autopilot. Though, I think all that most people want is good crash avoidance plus lane keeping and traffic-aware cruise on the freeway. A lot of other car companies are there as well, and I'm starting to believe that true level 5 is a decade off or totally impossible.

Supercharger access is becoming less of an exclusive as well. Electrify America is putting in a lot of stations (there's a couple near me right now, with about a dozen more planned) that support 150kW now (30 more than a Supercharger), and 350kW as soon as there's a car that can take it.

> 350kW as soon as there's a car that can take it

Like the Porsche Taycan:

https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-p...

Cadillac super cruise is supposed to be fantastic. I've never used either and will not comment on which is better, but it's certainly competitive.

Agreed, these are both killer apps for Tesla. I've got a 3 and have driven my car with Autopilot and a few Model S with autopilot, and it's crazy tech. To me, it's not worth the money, so I didn't order it, but to others, it's the entire reason to buy the car.

Even though I've only used superchargers 4 times in 6 months, it absolutely solves the EV roadtrip FUD in a way that nobody else has figured out yet.

Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?

Tesla just sold 63K Model 3s in a single quarter. Despite availability of Leaf and Bolt [both are cheaper]. None of the vehicles you have listed are true competitors to Tesla at this time. True competition will be something like an electric 3 series or C-class

The Jag and Audi are _absolutely_ competitors.

Jag IPace sold less than 200 vehicles in the US in November 2018[1]. Comparably Model X sold ~1875 in Nov 2017. [2]

[1] https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ [2] http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-...

I live in the most EV friendly region in the US and I hardly see I-Paces. Meanwhile Tesla is just crushing it here.

They are priced higher than the long range dual motor model of the Tesla Model 3, yet they have significantly lower range and the Audi has inferior performance where the expensive Jaguar barely matches the 3. But unlike Tesla, both lack the supercharger network so good luck traveling with them. Competitors? Maybe, but not really all that competitive.

Match them at what?

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