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Comment by siffland | Hacker News Reader

will probably get down voted for this but cannibalism was part of some cultures.....just saying, things change.

The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate.

That cliché argument is used not only by the Japanese to defend whale hunting but to any kind of violence towards all non-human animals.

Things change. Things need to change.

>The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate.

No, it's more like:

"We do this for a long time, and we consider this part of who we are, and we like it, and want to keep doing it. We're not idiots to just do it because we did it in the past, and in fact, we have opted to drop tons of things that we did in the past that we don't like anymore, we're not stuck like that".

So why even argue that? Why not just say "I like whale meat"? I hate this "it's a tradition" bullshit. Just say it, stop hiding behind traditions.

Because it _is_ a tradition. They don't actually eat a whole lot of whale meat like they used to do. There's more supply for whale meat than there is demand.

The reason the whaling industry still exists is because it receives government support for being a "protected tradition".

Also, that is the real tragedy, and I hate the fact that the journalists often miss it: criticising people for killing sensing, feeling animals is hypocritical because we do the same thing for cattle, pigs, sheep and chicken. (Argument for whales being rare species are nonsensical because the minke whales that are being hunted aren't that rare.) What's horrible is killing sensing, feeling animals for no good reason.

To repeat one is raising them to be eaten. The other not. We do not eat elephant ...

Still fishing is a general hard field.

Because they don't just like it like animals like stuff.

They like it as meat, but they also like the parts of their culture associated with it.

The same way an American would like the turkey AND the thanksgiving dinner, and would like to continue having both, and not just because of turkey meat, but as a combo.

So would slavery similarly be more justifiable if it was also done not only because slave owners liked it but because it was part of American culture?

Yes. That's also part of how it was justified back in the day. Or do you think that those practicing it thought it wasn't justified as they were doing it?

The fact that people have now changed their minds on that particular matter doesn't mean that anything people haven't changed their minds but consider tradition is equally wrong.

Or that there's some law-of-nature-style "right and wrong" aside what a culture deems as such. For all our modern posturing, if we were merely born 200 years ago in the US, heck, not even the South, we would statistically be far more likely to be in favor than against the practice (and still be considered perfectly "modern" for those times).

> The fact that people have now changed their minds on that particular matter doesn't mean that anything people haven't changed their minds but consider tradition is equally wrong.

No, but it does mean that tradition can be an obstacle for considering the rightness of an action.

> Or that there's some law-of-nature-style "right and wrong" aside what a culture deems as such.

Agreed. But if we assume some basic principles (e.g. like preventable pain and suffering should be avoided or human existence is good or whatever), then we can question whether something is right according to those principles.

In my experience, the tradition argument doesn’t carry too much weight in Norway - local sentiment (I live within spitting distance of three whaling vessels’ home port) is more that whale meat is tasty (and, historically, much more accessible than other meats, as dairy farming is somewhat of an extreme sport on these small islands we call home) and also, whaling is more profitable than most other forms of marine harvesting, never (to the best of my knowledge) having received subsidies &c - it is commercially viable.

Hm but it depends whether there is a victim involved or not IMHO

Sure, but one can say that for eating burgers too.

Yes, and lots of people do.

And even more don't. Like 5 to 1 more...

many people mindlessly throw plastic into the ocean, do drugs, are obese or in some other way show callous disregard for their own health or the health of the ecosystem they live in, what's the point?

Exactly (if the burger is made of animal flesh, that is; but fortunately there are many other ways of making burgers).

Yeah, just not real or tasty ones.

I'm cooking and eating burgers often, and they smell and taste quite real (as opposed to imaginary burgers made out of air).

Have you yourself tried a non-flesh burger, and did you genuinely find it bad? Was it from a shop or a cafe or was it homemade? Or do you have a dogmatic belief that there has to be real suffering and murder for a burger to be real?

It appears to be an issue with expectations for some people (including me). "Burger" is associated with a certain flavor, texture and appearance, so when I eat a veggie burger my subconsciousness is disappointed because it's too different. The veggie burger becomes a worse version of a regular burger rather than an independent dish. This is the main reason why I dislike so many "vegetarian alternative" dishes on our kitchen's menu like chili sin carne, while some "standalone" vegetarian dishes are among my favorites like pasta with spinach, tomato and feta in cream sauce.

I hope artificial meat will be introduced as a 'luxury' product and replace mass-produced fast food ground beef after it is well established as a genuine alternative and not some inferior knock-off like artificial cheese.

> The veggie burger becomes a worse version of a regular burger rather than an independent dish.

I can understand why some people can be put off by the taste. Having previously eaten non-human animals, I can say that I prefer the taste of veggie burgers and sausages, although most vegan cheese tastes absolutely disgusting (especially the ones pretending to be parmesan). But I really, really wish that more of us would be willing to accept a reduction in the tastiness of certain dishes to help prevent antibiotics resistance, non-human animal suffering, climate breakdown, dead zones and starvation.

And other times I really can't tell the difference, and to be honest it kind of scares me. Some brands go so far as to make the minced "meat" look red and bloody[0]. Then, I have to take someone's word that this thing that really looks like a shrimp and is all crunchy really isn't a shrimp[1]. It's like a whole new art form.

[0]: https://www.naturli-foods.dk/produkter/aertefars/

[1]: http://vegetarian-plus.com/product/vegan-shrimp/ (Note: The ones I tried looked more convincing)

I absolutely love this one particular brand (Linda McCartney) of mozzarella-riddled vegetarian burger they sell in the UK. I'm a lifelong meat eater, past redemption really, but my wife is vegetarian and introduced me to them.

I would rather eat these textured soya protein burgers than even the best beef burger I've ever had. They are that good.

Also, upvoted because a difference of opinion isn't what down voting is for, surely ?

> I absolutely love this one particular brand (Linda McCartney) of mozzarella-riddled vegetarian burger they sell in the UK.

Yea, and on top of that Linda McCartney products are cheap, free from plastic packaging and pretty much available everywhere.

> Also, upvoted because a difference of opinion isn't what down voting is for, surely ?

I've also wondered about the semantics of the voting arrows (because I'm working on a HN-like[0]). In the guidelines[1] it says how voting/karma works, but not what a vote is supposed to mean. Within the (rarely used) polls[2] the meaning is a bit clearer. Lobsters[3] requires you to pick a reason for down-voting (and "I disagree" is not one of those), which makes its purpose a bit clearer.

[0]: https://gitlab.com/hjek/undebatable

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll

[3]: https://lobste.rs

Also Papuans ate their dead instead of burying or incinerating them and that's how they got prion diseases. Not all traditions are good.

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