Comment by sp4rki | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sp4rki | Hacker News Reader

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While I don't condone at all this kind of behavior on behalf of men, I have also seen the other side of the story on various occasions. One specific incident actually comes to mind. A friend of mine had been dating a woman I was friends with from high school and used to keep in touch with. At this point I didn't know they where dating each other. One day he terminated the 'relationship' and the woman while seeking my advice made the comment that she could 'fuck up his life by saying he raped her'. I tried to convince her not to do so and though that she had desisted of such idea. A week later I was informed that my friend was being detained and charged with sexual assault, at that moment I actually put everything together, made a few calls and realized what had happened. I ended up telling everything she told to the police and my friend's lawyer and a week later the charges had been dropped.

I even had a closer to home to home experience with this in highschool, I was a girl's scape goat in a plot to make a boyfriend jealous while I was actually still a virgin. She told everyone that she had sex with me, when it wasn't true and it almost became a problem.

I'm not trying to say that this is the case here and that the author is lying though, but with lack of proof (and that certainly seems to be the case by reading the blog post) it is a very slippery slope to name the person on your blog. This could most probably ruin the guys life, the same way my friends life was on the verge of being ruined by someone with a bone to pick. Again, I'm not saying this is the case here, nor that I don't believe her, nor that I condone some men's behavior. As a matter of fact I'd rather side with the author on this one, but naming a person publicly like this, can easily destroy his and his family's life and future.

This is similar to a story which involves one of my (then) friends. Schoolies is what can be compared to as Spring Break in the US. It's a place where kids finishing high school go to celebrate for a week. There's plenty of drinking and socialising, your usual parties. We made friends with a group of girls who were staying in the apartment next to us. They were all friendly (or so we thought), offered to make us breakfast, we drank and partied with them a few times.

After one long day of partying, we were all just relaxing and drinking and watching some late night television. My friend is lead into the room by one of the girls and that's the last we see of him for the night. Now I can't say for sure what happened in that room, but all we know is that the next morning we find out this girl has a boyfriend, who now also knows of what had happened the previous night. Hours pass, doors are banging, my friend is now being threatened by the boyfriend. Then the police show up. The girl who had lead my friend into the room has gone to the police station and accused him of rape.

At this stage, that girl has left with her boyfriend, while the other girls still remain in the room next to us. We chat across the veranda and the other girls still seem normal and friendly (you wouldn't expect this from friends of a girl who had just accused one of the guys of rape). The issue of the pending allegation of rape arises and one of the girls notifies us that she believes our friend is telling the truth and will give a statement to say that the last thing she saw was her leading him into the room. And that after speaking to her in the morning she seemed normal and didn't confide in them about any problems that night.

That night ends and a new day begins, my friend is clearly shocked and frightened. His phone rings, it's an unknown number. He picks it up and the person on the other end introduces himself as the father of the girl. (One of the other girls had given his number to the father). The father goes on to say that this has happened before multiple times. This girl has falsely accused men of sexual assault multiple times (wtf?). He goes on to say that he believes his story and apologizes for what he has been going through. Charges were eventually dropped, other girls made similar statements, things were supposed to go back to normal. I noticed a bit of a change in my friend from this experience, he was not the same person he was before the accusation.

I'm not saying women are liars or anything close to that about this story. I certainly do not advocate the naming and shaming this blog post is doing, it is unprofessional and frankly, ridiculous. Women say men exert power over them, yet they forget just how easily they can destroy a mans life and career.

I'm confused by this post, and the GP post. How are these stories about fraudulent accusations relevant to Noiren's blog post & tweet?

Of course there have been cases where women falsely claim sexual assault, and it has severe negative effects on the accused. But does it follow that women in general (including Noirin Shirley) should not publicly name a man who assaulted them unless they have iron-clad physical proof, because of the risk that... they might be lying or delusional, unbeknownst to themselves?

Correct me if I'm misreading either post, but that seems like a strange logical leap. If Noiren were lying, she would know that. If she has no personal history of mental illness, alcoholic blackouts, etc. etc. and has a clear recollection of what seems to have been a pretty clear-cut interaction, she can also cross off delusion from the list.

Certainly, she should be (and, I'm fairly confident, is) aware of the repercussions of a post like this. But it's certainly not "ridiculous and unprofessional"; on the whole it seemed like a very measured response to an assault. Any legal repercussions will have to come from a court, of course, but naming him is perfectly valid, and must have helped to give her back some control over her situation.

What if he had pushed her down the back stairs instead of sexually assaulting her? Should she be photographing her bruises (hoping they're visible enough...) and asking the bar if they have a video camera out back before telling anyone what happened, just to be sure she hadn't imagined the whole thing?

There are absolutely negative consequences to being publicly named as Florian has been here (though he'll face far worse if the legal process finds him guilty). Yes, if Noiren were wrong/lying/deluded, she would be doing him a serious wrong. If she is telling the story accurately, though, who's actually to blame for those negative consequences? (And why is this so obvious with any other crime, but not with sexual assault?)

Why wasn't this girl sent to jail? She tried to completely destroy somebody's life multiple times. That's about as bad as trying to shoot somebody in my opinion.

Probably because she's mentally ill. Same thing happened to a friend of mine; a girl who turned out to be schizophrenic accused him of rape; luckily her story didn't make sense and she later realised that she'd been delusional. On the other hand, I know at least five women who've been raped; only one went to the cops. The rest had credible stories and witnesses; they still couldn't do it.

This is not punished with jail time most of the time, but it easily becomes a case of defamation of character, which the person in the story could have easily pursued IF the event had clearly damaged his reputation in some way. If he had done serious jail time, been fired from his job, or expelled from college then you have a clear cut case of a libel suit.

Why is this? You don't walk free if you shoot but miss. Why do you walk free if you try to put somebody in jail for a long time and ruin the rest of his life too?

Generally this sort of cases are dismissed in court because of lack of evidence. The same way that woman needs proof of a sexual assault, a man needs proof that she has done damage to his name and reputation so he can file a civil lawsuit against her. This type of procedure rarely carry jail time, it at all. In this case, if the woman has no proof AND the man has been fired from his job he can easily file a lawsuit and seek damages.

Right, but that's not what I was wondering. I was wondering why does actual damage need to be done to file a lawsuit? Isn't trying to hurt somebody good enough? If you try to shoot somebody you'll end up in jail even if you miss.

Because technically, as a citizen of the United States (in this case) are protected by freedom of speech rights. If you ask me what I think of my neighbor, I might tell you that I think she's a whore and that she probably has syphilis. That is in no way illegal, BUT if I start a campaign to slander her name publicly, it can be taken as a deliberate attack on the victim's reputation and even then it's not so much that it's illegal, but that you caused another citizen damages from your actions.

I have a right to tell the world you're a rapist, there's a freedom of speech inherent to being a US citizen which allows me to do this, but you have the right to seek damages for the troubles you're being put through.

It's a tough question to be brutally honest. I agree there should be harsh penalties for false police reports especially in cases such as this. It shouldn't be an almost walk away, try again experience.

but with lack of proof (and that certainly seems to be the case by reading the blog post) it is a very slippery slope to name the person on your blog.

Let me get this clear: it's your opinion that unless somebody videotapes every moment of their life, that they should not publicly state negative things that happen to them?

edit: for the downvoters, which part of that question is inappropriate?

I'm upvoting you since I believe the question has some merit and does have to do with the discussion.

Anyways, I've made no such claims, but you have to admit that it is as easy for a woman to completely destroy a man's life with such allegations, the same way a man can destroy a woman's life by committing a sexual crime against her. For this reason it is a necessity to have actual proof, be it video, witnesses, and most importantly DNA.

To answer more clearly your question: Anyone has the right to state whatever negative things happen to them, but the moment you start pointing the finger (in this case the alleged sexual harasser) you better have proof not only because you might be potentially destroying the life's of many people in the process, but because you are also opening the door to a suit for defamation of character.

Think about it, if it so happens that it's not true, he might lose his job, the custody of his children, any future career in the field in which he has established himself, being labeled as a sex offender, etc. If you're going to completely turn someone's life upside down, you better have the proof to prove such allegations.

Tone, putting words in someone else's mouth and conflating a very specific action with doing anything at all.

And, like a few other comments, authored by an account registered specifically to jump into this fight.

It's a touchy subject, one where if you think differently than other people they may judge you for it. I wouldn't blame someone for coming up with a throwaway account.

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