ps: also, flat came after both the aqua trend where effects were everywhere and skeumorphism was pushed higher. Not that surprising in a way.
[1] beos, win311, macos classic, win95 (office97 era) and nt5
- Standard interaction widgets. There was no breaking the scroll, there was no button that you can't discover how to press.
- Expert oriented interfaces. There was no action without a shortcut. The most complex software always had some CLI or an API (optionally with an intepreter).
- Discoverability features. The sortcut descriptions were embedded on the same places you had to click to get the functionality. Buttons were clearly marked. There was almost always some text area telling you what was happening.
I don't miss skeumorphism, but it was often used to mark real features, and those features were gone with the arbitrary skeumorphisms. Current GUI trends were created by people with no interest on making their software useful, instead they only keep an eye on showroom conversion rate. (Whether they are right or not on doing so, it's a problem nonetheless.)
Yeah, I feel A/B testing is really the place where Satan secretly influences the world. I'm losing track of how many times I've seen user-hostile or application-debiliating decisions justified by "data" on user behaviour. Something is very wrong here.
# Runs horizontally.
- Result: wastes precious vertical space on low-resolution widescreen displays (i.e. business displays and most notebooks) that should be dedicated to showing the document body.
# Due to being horizontal, GUI items appear/disappear depending on window width.
- Result 1: having two documents on screen can be disadvantageous compared to having one on screen because a lot of the GUI items aren't showing or are hidden in submenus, encouraging wasting screen real estate by only having one document on the entire screen.
- Result 2: due to the Ribbon's horizontality, instead of having the elements stay on screen in a consistent manner and be easily scrollable, the interface constantly surprises the user by unexpectedly hiding even key GUI items.
# No option to disable.
- Result: if you wanted to have certain GUI items visible at the same time… well, tough. If the floating palette that inconsistently appears when the user places the mouse cursor over certain elements doesn't have your favourite item, then you're out of luck if the items you want to use exist under different tab groupings.
iWork '09 and prior had the best design: a main toolbar with general items, a smaller context-sensitive toolbar underneath, and context-sensitive inspector windows. If the revamped iWork had simply docked those context-sensitive inspectors, rather than get rid of the context-sensitive toolbar, it mightn't have received such a poor response.
The irony is that Office 2003 (and a few releases prior) already had inspectors on the side, and those would have been perfect given the prevalence of widescreen displays, leaving as much vertical space for the display of the document body as possible.
LibreOffice seems to have three GUI modes; one like iWork, one like the old Office, and one like the Ribbon.
Precisely. The average user assumes (often correctly) that the way things are is the way things are. When it comes to what technical people think are basic features (pairing a wireless keyboard to an iPad, or changing default text size on iPhones, or any number of similar tasks on any system), the modern “ease of use” guidelines suggest hiding everything away as much as possible, severely limiting setting discoverability.
So I get used to the defaults. It makes it easier to throw out, reinstall, or switch environments if I need to. In any given day I use 5 or 6 different primary environments.
Time ago I have a discussion with a "commercial" guy who say that the sole really integrated platforms are cloud&mobile so they are obviously the future because we are a society and we need to interoperate. I respond plugging my laptop HDMI into the room projector and show a quick Emacs/EXWM(-X) demo: email? Hit a single key (F6 in my case) and my MUA (notmuch-emacs) popup instantly. On top of it's big search bar I have few single-key accessible saved searches and bottom the big series of tags, a far superior "dashboard" than bloated GMail UI. Of course compose a new message can happen with a single key at any time with any open application I have focused. Oh I imaging someone demand me a demo, a quick M-x skeletor (ivy-completed) popup, a single key to choose beamer slide, quick typing and slides are made, tested locally and uploaded. Another imaginary interruption and another task (skeletor again + org-mode), an imaginary patch sent via mail and voilà: magit integration. All datas are really integrated and usable in a consistent environment, anything can be done in a snap and NO other monster modern GUI or '90-style can do the same. That's the past (starting from LispM/MIT AI lab glory time) and the future like we have had "golden age" of ancient Greek polis and more modern "middle (dark) age" and again a modern age. That's integration and customization. No need to switch between systems (while can be done easily with NixOS/GuixSD + homeManager/GNU stow + unison). My system is main and I can replicate/extend it on any decent hw as nedeed. That's "switching systems" IMO :-)
I'm assuming they were talking about different systems they don't own, aren't their own systems, and over which they don't have the sort of control to install their own software and set things up using their personal configuration files.
It's awesome that you've got, or at least dreamt up, a system that works for you, but if you're able to use that exact system on every single machine you use, that isn't quite what was being described. That's an ideal, but only really feasible for personal machines.
Also, I'm going to get downvoted, but please put in a few line breaks.
> Also, I'm going to get downvoted, but please put in a few line breaks.
I still have to learn the idiosyncratic way HN handle text... I do put linebreaks, I'm edit in Emacs and paste here, however HN mess it up...
It mostly deals with decisions during programming, but the first part of the article describes exactly this problem.
Always remember a thing: from diversity born evolution, from standard borne Ford-model workers.
> of course for work there are requisite
So, which is it? We do or we don't?
> but tech users should IMO do their best to avoid working in bad environment
More often than not, it's not up to the workers but company policies. Besides, needing to use a machine other than yours isn't a "bad environment", it's life.
Not only that, but the "other machines" could equally be non-networked terminals for heavy machinery. A lot of these run a stripped-down version of Windows, so the basic user interface is usually left at default settings whilst an always-open program takes up most of the display.
I agree with you on the next part:
> [...] to convince their company to let them use productive software
I'm right with you here, but again, company policies. Plus, your example suggests you're just thinking of individuals within a company as individuals.
We mustn't assume that all users here are in technical jobs, particularly development; often we're just moving between standardised Windows workstations, lowest common denominator setups so that (A) non-technical users could log in to any machine and still understand how to use it and (B) the IT department have fewer headaches to sort out.
After all, a company is not just made up of individuals; it's full of teams who have to work together to reduce each others' burdens. Sometimes that means using setups that aren't our favourites; our personal productivity mightn't be as great as if we used our own setups, but the company doesn't grind to a halt when someone's delicate configuration goes haywire and the IT team spends more time on it than anybody has any right to expect.
There's a delicate balance to maintain in most companies. IT departments have no trouble labelling even the very technically competent users as ID10Ts.
> however HN mess it up
Are you making sure to use two carriage returns, not just one? It's not particularly idiosyncratic, reddit is the same. I think it might be inherited from non-WYSIWYG forums or bulletin boards.
At any rate, it's becoming a bit of a standard to use two carriage returns due to this being the way that line breaks are entered in Markdown.
hard stuff nor applied in a too bureaucratic manner: you ask/negotiate
and see results. BTW I do my best to avoid too big companies because of
bureaucracy...
On line break, no I type on a single line and Emacs automatically brake
line a 79's column... Of course I can leave double empty lines but the
results will be obscene for small-screen reader... That's the F-F idea in
emails. How does it look for you know?
IMO HN should limited it horizontal line.
Your editor shouldn't insert the line breaks at 80 column intervals; separate the content from the presentation, and let HN format your text properly. After all, if you have a small screen, the text will be wrapped according to the browser width anyway.
I understand that you complaint about my comment's long lines because I "format" in F-F style (i.e. no linebreak except for paragraph), next I format with double linebreak to force HN "cut" longer lines.
I do not know how to format in other way, inserting html+inline CSS with maximum text width or maybe even media query is not something I expect HN accept nor a thing I'd like to do as a HN user...
Never underestimate the importance of good defaults.
--
In the end, I find that left-side orientation is rarely done well, or well imho. I did really like the Unity UI in Ubuntu, but I think I'm the only one on this. I used to position my launchpad in macos on the left as well, but this is awkward, and easier to just have it auto-hide.
That said, I'll agree that the Ribbon does work best on a full screen interface at the top, though I still think a or two context-sensitive toolbar(s) would work better.
I was thinking about this in the shower: why is mapping a drive letter to a path in the Ribbon? Shouldn't that be a button somewhere in or near the navigation tree interface in the left sidebar, grouping it with the other aspects of disk drives and paths.
Plenty of what's in even Explorer's relatively simple ribbon could be in a context-based location for greater semantic grouping. That could simplify the Ribbon, and turn it back into a simple toolbar, maybe with a secondary, highly context-sensitive toolbar at the bottom of the window.
That's not an unprecedented thought. Windows XP had it with the Quick Tasks sidebar. The problem there was the use of sentences rather than simple command names made it difficult to separate the signal from the noise; plus, if you didn't change any of the defaults, you had that little dog making the whole thing seem rather unserious when it was actually a rather power paradigm, poorly implemented but with much untapped potential.
Ever seen a non-technical user move the mouse with the same dexterity as you or I? I haven't. The mouse always roams around for a month of Sundays before it eventually arrives in the right place.
This is not a stable interface; it is an ugly hack to make up for wasteful the Ribbon was designed to be
At best, it could be a sort of distraction-free writing mode except that you can still see the rest of the interface, some parts equally as eye-catching as parts of the Ribbon.
Not just non-technical. I hate having to hunt for the tiny target. A very highly technical friend of mine invented a term for that: “pixel spearing”. I am truly insensed at how much time I waste trying to spear the exact right pixel.
It's why hiding toolbars dynamically works well in macOS' fullscreen mode; flinging your mouse to the top of the screen always shows the menubar and toolbar without fail (unless the mouse is captured by the app, of course, like in a game).
At the very least, Office should then show a small context-sensitive toolbar (mini-ribbon?) or a sidebar; instead, the only recourses are either the inconsistent appearance of the floating palette that only appears when the stars are aligned with the user's mouse pointer or temporarily showing the Ribbon again.
Like I said to another reply to my comment, lipstick on a pig. Maybe another analogy is that it's a band-aid on a flesh wound.
The floating palette is not inconsistent. It appears when you select text. First it's half transparent because you might not need it. If you want to use it, hover with the mouse above, the palette becomes non-transparent. If you just want to highlight something by selecting it, you can move the cursor away, the transparent palette hides. I can reproduce this behaviour all the time. It might not be the best idea, but it's not inconsistent in its usage.
Though they were more common, the market had already moved to notebooks outselling everything else. Microsoft should have had foresight. In fact, you might say they did, with Windows Sidebar in Vista; whilst not fantastic, it was a good use of horizontal space.
Besides this, they already had interfaces in prior versions of Office that made more efficient use of vertical space __and__ made efficient use of horizontal space on widescreen displays; they were the sidebar palettes, still used in Visual Studio. They just needed further development; instead, they were completely removed.
> It's not inconsistent
It is if you're a user with special accessibility requirements, especially those with motor skill problems or vision difficulties; ephemeral interfaces are hard to target, and without a means to manually invoke it and a consistent location, might as well not be there for many a user.
A well-designed interface doesn't need to account for edge cases. Office 2003 and prior's interface, whilst not pretty, was already extremely usable in that sense. All that was needed was context-sensitivity; instead, the baby went out with the bath water.
But you didn't specify that when you called it "inconsistent" in the parent comment. I assumed no special accessibility, as did you, because you haven't mentioned it before. So maybe it is inconsistent of those users, for the rest it's still consistent.
>All that was needed was context-sensitivity; instead, the baby went out with the bath water.
The ribbons in Office have context sensitivity. Select an image, image ribbon is shown, table - same and so one. Since text is the primary context, it is always shown per default ("Start" ribbon).
That's your mistake, then. When talking about user experience design, it's always inclusive-by-default, accessibility a top priority, not an afterthought.
This comes back to my parent comment right at the top of this thread: using native widgets with full accessibility support gives you this for free. Of course, I'm not saying there shouldn't be innovation, but those outcomes should be on par with the default widgets, not even a tiny bit lesser.
> The ribbons in Office have context sensitivity
But they (A) still show too many features for whatever is selected, demonstrating that the context-sensitivity is limited; (B) don't always automatically change to the appropriate tab; (C) sometimes show two tabs, confusing users (especially when it comes to tables or graphs); (D) hide other tools, by virtue of switching tabs, which would still be useful (namely, everything on the main tab).
Also, context-sensitivity would mean that the Ribbon would change back to the main tab after any operation in the other tabs was done. Since it doesn't, it demonstrates that the user has to constantly switch between contexts manually, meaning that the Ribbon's context-sensitivity is pretty poor and, again, inconsistent.
Not really. I think you pulled this card to win the "consistent" argument. After all, I don't see evidence that this style does hinder accessibility.
>(B) don't always automatically change to the appropriate tab;
They do, Word 2010. Inserting Image -> Image ribbon, same goes for tables. If you want to force-show a ribbon you can always doubleclick.
>(C) sometimes show two tabs, confusing users (especially when it comes to tables or graphs)
Whats confusing about this? It shows a header "table tools" (translated) so the purpose is clear. Sometimes stuff is more complex and needs more space.
>Also, context-sensitivity would mean that the Ribbon would change back to the main tab after any operation in the other tabs was done
It does. Again Word 2010. Select image, make an operation. Write text again, (because you might make several operations) thus exiting the image manipulation mode and the Start ribbon is there again.
Note: I'm not saying this is the best interface there is, merely that it's not as inconsistent as you depict it.
Actually, if you look at all the comments I've been making in response to my initial comment, the parent of the thread, I've been talking about accessibility the entire time, especially for visually impaired.
For the visually impaired and those with motor skills impairments, it's fairly easy to overshoot where the floating palette appears. If you shoot too far up, it disappears; it doesn't reappear when the mouse comes back to where the palette was, the text needs reselecting.
That's my main inconsistency.
> (B) don't always automatically change to the appropriate tab; > They do
I stand corrected in one respect, but we still have inconsistent behaviour. Say you create a table, the Ribbon will change to Table Tools. Great.
Click away from the table and then click back. Still on the Home tab. Well, this makes sense since you're probably editing text — but again, that just reinforces my belief that those tools should be in a separate toolbar (à la Office 2003 and prior).
> What's confusing about this? It shows a header "table tools" so the purpose is clear
The technically minded may figure it out, but ordinary users have to rote learn what the tabs do. As an example, Table Tools shows two subtabs, Design and Layout.
Do you think you could get Sheila from accounting or Bob from packing to tell me the difference between the two tabs, or how the two Design tabs differ, without letting them click around the interface? I doubt it.
When there are two context-sensitive tabs shown, and they're both heavily related, you can almost bet money that an ordinary user, Sheila from accounting or Bob at reception, is going to cycle between the two tabs to find what they're looking for. This isn't intuitive.
> Note: I'm not saying this is the best interface there is, merely that it's not as inconsistent as you depict
That isn't high praise. A user interface shouldn't be inconsistent at all, especially the flagship product of a multi-billion dollar company, and especially the de facto standard in productivity software.
Not just the technically minded. Office is primarly used by non-technical people.
>Do you think you could get Sheila from accounting or Bob from packing to tell me the difference between the two tabs, or how the two Design tabs differ, without letting them click around the interface? I doubt it.
Telling? Probably not. But asking them to do X with the table? Yes, at this point (when working with the program) it's probably muscle memory to do the stuff you want.
Who, in my experience, have only a grasp of the absolute basics of what they're using (and pretty much only live in the home tab), and consider most of the other basic functions as too complicated.
> [...] it's probably muscle memory to do the stuff you want
A good user interface design doesn't _require_ muscle memory, though it can reward it by making repetitive actions quick and efficient. Intuitiveness should be the goal.
Or occasionally a setting you last touched five years ago when you installed the thing, as you're quite happy it's been set ever since.
How strange that they don't need data to to install ads in start menus and new tabs, "refreshing" the whole GUI (once you've fully assigned the old one to muscle memory), or adding other pointless bloat.
My theory is that the assumption there is some kind of meaningful "Average user" which a product is then built for ultimately destroys utility in software.
If you have 50 features that on average 1% of people use, you can easily reach the false conclusion nobody cares about these features, when on aggregate 90% might use at least one of those features. Thus in aiming for the average, you haven't designed for anyone at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy
Combine this with the fact that metrics can't truly tell you why something is, only that things somehow appear to have a relation. Developers love love to run wild with a narrative about how their particular reading of why the metrics shook out this way is unchallengable fact, backed by DATA (when its really exactly the opposite, you drew a conclusion based on relations you assumed to exist), you have a recipe for some really horrible misdesigning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_dredging
I think modern application design is completely off the rails, driven by statistical phantoms that are assigned significance in an arbitrary and non-systematic way and its leading to software that is genuinely a degraded experience for the user, wearing the mask of something that is propped up as "objectively better".
Everything was accessible via the menu! You could tell what was a label and what was a button! There were tooltips! There were no hidden gestures--some magic combination of taps and swipes that has you banging on your phone like a monkey.
What's remarkable about GUIs today is that the software is hardware to use despite having less functionality and fewer features than ever. Compare new GMail to Outlook 98; Windows 2000 to Windows 10; the built-in PDF viewers in Edge/Chrome to the Acrobat PDF plugin; etc.
The other trend that's pissing me off is - actions are increasingly irreversible. I loved computers because it seemed to have reset or undo buttons everywhere! Most actions / mistakes were fixable in one click. Even Windows Recovery which failed to work correctly most of the time - still provided mental safety and I explored with ease.
Now, things seem to happen for no reason. Flick the mouse the wrong way and something will change, and render a software unusable with no way to fix it unless the application's uninstalled - some changes even survive reinstalls and the only way to fix is an OS change.
when I booted a win95 box last year, I thought to myself, with emacs and sbcl I'd use that as my daily driver
But you're being a needlessly argumentative, by any real definition all versions of Windows have been "real operating systems".
Brushing all the checkboxes and menus it could under the rug in favor of those stupid "Wizards" gives me a headache even just reminiscing about it
"Internet Connection Wizard"
"Help Wizard"
"Accessibility Wizard"
Windows 7 was a-ok too, but my best memories are still with 2000/2003.
This still is the right way to design GUIs for applications to which it is applicable, many people (me included) still follow it and I would warn against thinking of it as of obsolete.
Nevertheless there was and it looked really crazy.
> There is no equivalent dialog in modern Windows
The last version of Windows I used was Windows 7 and I'm pretty sure it was there. I was coding WinForms apps and it uses native system widgets stylable via these settings. Now I use Qt to develop cross-platform apps (on KDE5 as the primary environment), it follows the principle in almost every aspect (it doesn't let you change the colors easily however, you need to design a custom theme for this), it also suggest attaching a keyboard shortcut to every action and displays these right to the menu items.
You're talking about the high-contrast theme. It wasn't anything special, it was just a specific set of settings from this dialog. Compare that to now, when having a dark mode took so much work Microsoft made a special announcement and everything. Ridiculous.
> The last version of Windows I used was Windows 7 and I'm pretty sure it was there.
It's been a while since 7, but if this dialog was there it was because you could still disable compositing and use the old fashioned Win32. The closest thing in 10 lets you change your titlebar color and background.
I'm grateful for all those people, yourself included. But the problem is that most software is moving to the Web, and the browser is treated as blank canvas. Everyone reimplements their own UI to their aesthetic taste, with no regard for accessibility and interoperability. It's the other reason (besides security) that Flash was bad; just calling it "DOM" doesn't make it suck any less.
Today people are always optimizing (for the showroom), always redesigning. That's part of the problem, not of the solution.
What’s refreshing about Be is that it only goes like three deep. Button and not button, and... desktop?
It’s because the Be UI is so shallow that it is charming. If you allow 6 different types of every UI thing like Google and Apple do, your UI designer has no chance of getting everything correct. There’s just too many combinations of widget states.
Only by limiting UI depth can you get that Nintendo-Esque complete feeling, like everything is there for a reason. And Be does.
could you point to some additional resources on this topic?
I've got an old Celeron system I was going to throw away but because of this I just installed the 32bit version of Haiku on it and have been enjoying its simple style.