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Comment by russellbeattie | Hacker News Reader

I could write a book about my experience learning Spanish after I moved to Spain years ago. I'll summarize:

1. Immersion is overrated, even if you're trying your best to study vocabulary in your off hours. You won't just start "dreaming in a foreign language" because you've been around it all day. I wasted 6 months thinking it would someday just happen magically. It won't.

2. No one will put up with your shitty language skills for more than 5 minutes... Except your significant other. They'll have the patience because they love you. Everyone else will just cringe after a few minutes and change to English, or just smile and wave you off.

3. Hire a private tutor. I went to see a wonderful older woman named Nieves every day after work for 18 months. It was the only real way to chisel a language into my thick skull. She was part therapist, part cultural liaison and part drill master.

Y mas que diez años despues, no he olvidado mucho. Bueno, nunca podria escribir muy bien, pero puedo charlar con otros hispanohablantes sin mucho esfuerzo. Excepto los Argentinos. No tengo ni idea que estan diciendo por nada.

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>2. No one will put up with your shitty language skills for more than 5 minutes... Except your significant other. They'll have the patience because they love you. Everyone else will just cringe after a few minutes and change to English, or just smile and wave you off.

This is actually not true. As a Dutch person I have huge respect and admiration for people that are learning dutch and willing to practice with me no matter how cringy it is. Exactly the cringe is how you learn! I have a friend with whom I can hold a full-blown conversation in Dutch and I'm honestly in awe, he's a PhD student and took on the liberty of learning Dutch whilst many PhD students that are here from foreign countries (i.e. will be here for 5 years) never even make the effort. The effort alone should be highly commended.

You're a rare exception, then. Every single person I know who has tried to learn Dutch has expressed frustration that the Dutch, more even than many (most?) other European countries, will immediately switch to English if they notice you're not fluent.

EDIT: That said, I do agree that if you get past a certain level of fluency it might be easier. And I suppose it depends on where you live. Cities are probably harder.

Pro tip froma friend who was learning Dutch: if you open every conversation with "I'm learning Dutch, so I'm going to try speak only Dutch" (in Dutch), people are more inclined to help.

There are a lot of variables, but one thing to keep in mind is that when people switch from $language to English, a subset of them may simply see the conversation as their chance to practice English (rather than as your chance to practice $language).

The problem with Dutch people is that their English is, all else being equal, unusually good compared to at least most of mainland Europe.

So whatever the variable (city/rural, expat/local, etc.), you're very likely to run into a Dutch person who is fluent in English, and usually fluent enough where it's not even a matter of 'a chance of practice' for them, just a matter of avoiding mutual frustration.

At least when you're talking to someone who wants to practice, there's a chance they'd still prefer or revert to their own language. With lots of Dutch people that's not an issue.

Similarly, Dutch people don't try to talk to Afrikaans people, they also switch to English.

There are exceptions when there are vested interests.

You may have the patience but I do suspect that the majority of people doesn’t.

I also don’t think it is necessarily about respect or admiration. In day to day interactions, people just prefer to use the most efficient means available to understand and be understood. Like using English instead of a clumsy beginners level of Spanish.

>I also don’t think it is necessarily about respect or admiration. In day to day interactions, people just prefer to use the most efficient means available to understand and be understood. Like using English instead of a clumsy beginners level of Spanish.

Of course, but I can guarantee you that, at least for Dutch people, we have huge admiration for people trying to learn our language. Dutch is hard and the effort is appreciated, it shows a certain kind of respect towards the country and its people.

I can guarantee you that if someone at the counter gives the receipt and a foreigner replies with "Ja, graag" in a thick heavy accent she will be greeted with a smile.

I think that we switch over to English and the easy more default setting way too easily, this makes it hard for people to learn the native language because no one wants to practice with them.

Irrelevant tangent: I was in Albert Heijn (common Dutch supermarket) today, the one in Amsterdam at Dam Square. They recently sell "Danish Chef Cheese Spread" (you might imagine Cheez Whiz in a tube), which I'm addicted to, to the detriment of my health. As I was stuffing tubes of this into my basket, a pretty young Chinese woman (tourist) stood right beside me and said something in Chinese. It took me a few seconds to realize she'd spoken Chinese and couldn't care less if I existed. It so happens that, at the risk of humble-bragging, I've taken some Chinese lessons. Ten more seconds later, I understood what she'd said: zhe shi shenme? "What is this?" She had no idea what this bin of cheese tubes was, and why would she? I then spent another half-minute trying to think of the word for "cheese" in Chinese. Of course, I was too late, and she re-joined several other attractive Chinese people. Google translate says Qǐ sī (chee suh), but is that possibly the actual translation? I may never know.

My experience in the Netherlands matches what you are saying. My Dutch is barely enough to hold a casual conversation with a colleague, and I do make a lot of mistakes. But people do keep up with me, and I had multiple job offers after doing the interviews entirely in Dutch.

After you reach a certain level people tend to be forgiving.

My oddest experience when learning Dutch was standing in line at the Post Office and hearing the woman berating the non-Dutch people in the queue in front of me for not learning Dutch. Then when I got to the front and asked for postzegels in OK Dutch, she replied immediately in English..., I told her she was a hypocrite...

> Immersion is overrated, even if you're trying your best to study vocabulary in your off hours. You won't just start "dreaming in a foreign language" because you've been around it all day.

It works for me. Even if immersion means a lonely weekend with a book in a foreign language. I begin to verbalise my thoughs in a foreign language, at least partially. The longer exposure to a language, the more foreign language in my thoughts. Sometimes I even need to make a conscious effort to switch to my native language, because I'm thinking slower and shallower in a foreign language.

> No one will put up with your shitty language skills for more than 5 minutes...

Possible it is the reason why immersion doesn't work for you. You need to stop using your native language for some time. Completely. Native language shouldn't be an option. When you mind sees an easy way to deal with language problem (switching to native) it uses easy way. It is the general principle of how human mind works: use the easiest possible way to get a desired result.

When I'm reading book, using native language is an option: I can translate sentencies into my native language and understand them from the translation. I did this before, but then my mind developed a shortcut way, not translating, just understanding. It is much easier. After that I got troubles with translating, it is hard, you know. I just do not know a good translation for words, I understand meaning of words, but it take a lot of effort to separate meaning from foreign word, and then to find a native word with this meaning.

> You need to stop using your native language for some time. Completely.

I second this.

My German instructor mandated that all speaking in the class would occur in German (preferably thinking too)

So, you couldn't rely on English as crutch. It is astounding at how quickly the brain picks up key words when your main communication tool (English) is suddenly taken away. It is also very entertaining, to realize how the nature of our thoughts themselves becomes simple, when we think in a language while having a limited vocabulary

It led to funny situations too. When you don't even have the vocabulary to ask a question, how do you learn at all? When the instructor explains concepts to you in a language that you haven't learnt yet, how you gain insights at all !?

It appears to be a chicken and egg problem, but once the ball got rolling, it was arguably the fastest I learnt any new skill, bar none.

>Everyone else will just cringe after a few minutes and change to English

Due to this I decided to do immersion in Colombia and lived outside of the gringo neighborhood. No one in my neighborhood spoke English and I was forced to communicate in Spanish when buying groceries, the sim card I bought didn't work, taking tennis lessons, ordering food, etc.

Benny Lewis (Fluent in 3 Months[1]) says he doesn't speak English, if people try to switch. His approach is basically go to pubs and try to speak from day 1.

On the other end there's Khatzumoto (All Japanese All The Time[0]) who spoke as late as possible, getting as much exposure as possible first (had Japanese audio on 24 hours a day for 18 months).

After 18 months of "input-first" learning, he did a phone interview with a Japanese company and was treated as a native speaker (and hired and moved to Japan).

Benny's method is about getting a "workable" level as quickly as possible (at the risk of forming bad habits in accent early on, misusing grammar & vocabulary).

Khatzumoto's method (based on linguist Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis) is about getting a solid model for the language, which the brain builds naturally through constant exposure, before speaking or writing a great deal.

For more on these methods check out their respective sites. As an introvert I prefer the "listen first, speak only when necessary" approach, rather than "go out and make an ass of yourself from day 1" :)

[0]: https://ajatt.com/

[1]: https://fi3m.com/

No affiliation, but I have great respect for both, and have benefited from their advice tremendously.

Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis says that you need comprehensible input. Immersion as a complete beginner does not give you much comprehensible input. He advocates that you need what you listen to be 95% understandable, which means you have to start with very, very basic input. Personally, I find 50 - 60% is good enough for me to improve if only slowly. I went to France this year after 7 months of listening to French for 2 hours a day. During that 7 months I went from DELF A1 level material (complete beginner) to YouTube videos from native speakers talking about things that interest me (such as physics). I took a French immersion course in France and was tested at the beginning as B1 level. So, the input hypothesis method got me from complete beginner to intermediate in 7 months without immersion. I did not do any speaking until after 5 months of listening.

That's interesting. I learned of it second hand, and must have got the wrong idea. I thought the whole point was that it's the way everyone learns their first language, as babies? When you start, nothing is comprehensible. But with enough input, everything becomes comprehensible!

I second this.

I lived in a bland, boring commuter suburb of Paris for 2 months to improve my French. Completely different to central Paris which I came to hate as much as the French. Even my poor French trumped people's willingness to switch to English, and many people in the suburbs speak very little English. So it's possible to get immersion even in a city like Paris.

I feel the need to comment on my original post to clarify (as it appears I may have been misunderstood)...

I strongly dislike Paris - the city - not Parisians or non-Parisian French living there.

I dislike it the same way I dislike London. To someone like me, more at home in the countryside, it's just a noisy, sprawling, unclean armpit of a place. My opinion (and one shared by many French people I spoke to) is that Paris is no longer French in the same way that London is no longer English. They effectively operate as city states.

I really dislike this cliche that Parisians are rude. It is absolutely untrue, and usually the product of tourists not understanding French culture and inadvertently causing offence. It is also a product of people only visiting the hellhole tourist areas. Like most French people I wouldn't dream of going to those areas unless you paid me!

As an unbias observer (neither a proper local, nor a proper tourist) I can definitely say that the rudeness of tourists far far outweighs the rudeness of the locals. In fact, I don't recall any direct rudeness from locals at all. On the other hand, seeing tourists behave in a disrespectful manner was a daily occurrence.

Parisians are a whole different breed of people. Actually, that's too nice. They're assholes. I watched my Quebecois travelling companion speak in perfect French to a counter person, who virtually sneered at him before ignoring him completely and speaking to me in English. They've got being rude down to an art form, truly. Outside the city though, we got treated like long lost cousins - all due to his French. Same experience in Italy with an Italian speaking travel partner. Paris is, um, special, no doubt.

My wife speaks pretty decent French, which leads to amusing scenarios in Paris where she speaks in French to a person who insists in replying in (sometimes poor) English. Often they both persevere in the opposite languages to their own, leading to a weird inversion of what you would imagine would be the most efficient communications strategy!

I would guess there might be a few motivations for people to do this though, not necessarily just rudeness. Misplaced helpfulness, wanting to save face by not switching languages back, practicing English, who knows?

(What's really funny is when they finally give up and revert to French and then address a question to me - only for me to shrug with embarrassment and tell them I don't speak French.)

Does your wife have an alternative language to switch to? Maybe trump their English with a couple of sentences of German, or Spanish?

I wouldn't advocate being an asshole usually, but for Parisians speaking in English at you to be snobs, just compliment them on their impeccable English skills and suggest that means they must have some Englishman blood in them.

It may have also been what your friend said — French people are quite formal compared to Canadians and Americans — I know some French and was corrected a couple of times based on how I started the conversation: “Good evening” first, then start... most Americans at least don’t talk that way

Another 'politeness' example that can often trip people up is 'tu' offending people in France in situations where it would be perfectly normal in Quebec.

Everybody says this about Parisians, but I haven't found it to be true. I've visited Paris 3 times for a total of almost 3 weeks and met very few rude people. I've met a lot more assholes in Manhattan than in Paris. Of course, I follow the French rules of politeness. I always start with "Bonjour/Bonsoir" and always finish any visit with "Merci, bon journée/soirée, Au revoir." On the other hand, I've seen plenty of rude behavior by American tourists who just start speaking English to French people without any greeting or any attempt at French.

Canadian French is very different from France's, be it the accent, the idioms, the vocabulary.

As a native French speaker travelling in Montreal, I often found it easier to talk English with French speaking people, to my great shame.

I recall a simple transaction with a cashier in a supermarket, and having her repeat the simplest things (like "hello") a couple time because I had no idea what she was saying or if she even was speaking French, this was awfully embarrassing.

Although I agree, Parisians are asshole.

Parisians are SO awful. I studied abroad there for a year and was shocked to find that many of them (especially women my age -- and I'm a woman) were nastier than New Yorkers. All the French friends I made were a) not native Parisians and b) mostly male. But I spent Spring Break in the South of France and most people there were supremely kind and tolerated my accented French.

This is a myth, just as it's a myth that New Yorkers are rude horrible people who will yell at you in the street.

I'd argue that there is a surprisingly homogeneous distribution of horrible people throughout the big cities of the world.

Quebec French sounds very different to European French.

Weird. My partner and I visit Paris annually for weeks at a time. I've had maybe one or two rude experiences that I can think of. Everyone else I've encountered has been pleasant.

I am a very fat American tourist who has spent a total of two months in Paris in my life. I never met any impatience with my terrible terrible French from any Parisians at all.

How I truly wish I had had your experience. I'll be honest, I haven't been back in over a decade so maybe things are better now. That would be great.

I've been visiting Paris for 40+ years and I've noticed a distinct difference in sentiment over the past 5-10. Perhaps it's the younger generation or the freedom of movement within the EU or some other factors.

Good to know - I visited Paris at the end of the eighties, with friends, and it was a terrible experience. After two days we fled the city. I was yelled at when trying to buy metro tickets, because my pronunciation and word selection was slightly off - I remember I literally backed away several steps from the counter. Restaurants.. all bad. We met a total of two nice people, one young guy with a button which said he would speak English, and an old woman who didn't speak a word of English but still came running when she saw us studying a map. They were both very helpful. Everybody else? Not very much. Not at all, really. Train stations, other public services - speak perfect French, or get ignored (at best).

And at that time I had been travelling to lots of countries for years, and I never had any trouble communicating with people. Big cities, villages at mountain tops, desolated island towns. People were nice everywhere. Except for Paris.

If that has changed for the better recently then that's truly good news.

I confess I was surprised myself.

Not everyone has these choices available.

I am in Norway and am from the US. Kids now learn English when starting school at 6: My spouse (in his early 40's) started learning later. Advertising is half english and half Norwegian. English language television has subtitles instead of dubbing and "Norwenglish" exists. To make matters worse, I'm in an urban area.

I only know one native english speaker here in Norway.

It took some time before I could use norwegian in everyday activities: Before I had a certain level, folks would just switch to English. Heck, I still get folks switching over and I'm firmly at an intermediate level (at least, I don't consider myself fluent). Honestly, the best resource I could have is to be around elderly folks - or sometimes folks about my mother's age - because this age group is less likely to know english, not understand it, and/or not speak it as well.

I'm sorry, but I feel compelled to say something, as I think your first point is potentially misleading to prospective foreign language students.

> Immersion is overrated

> Everyone else will just cringe after a few minutes and change to English

It's not really immersion if you aren't forced to speak the language, and form and maintain social relationships solely in the target language. It sounds like you weren't able to achieve that on your own in your day to day.

> Hire a private tutor

This is good advice. Your tutor was presumably speaking Spanish with you, which was the missing piece.

The takeaway should be if you're not part of a social group that speaks primarily (if not entirely) in the target language, then you will not learn it well.

Languages are a way of bonding between people. A single person raised alone in the wild has no language; a group of people in the wild always do.

I was definitely immersed - with my own apartment, and later a Spanish wife, baby, etc. - but I was also there on tech business, so there were plenty of people around with great English skills. I understand your point, and will agree that immersion is better than not, but my point is simply that there's no magical transformation just by living in another country.

My tutor definitely spoke Spanish to me, but the first several months was all in English. I hate the teaching method where a teacher just yammers away in the target language, as if (again) by magic and special miming gestures, the students will 'pick it up.' Bleh. Nieves gave me a review of concepts in English first, then we practiced speaking. I can't imagine learning any other way - but that's probably why she taught me that way. That's the benefit of a private tutor.

I can second what you are saying. Currently living in Switzerland and trying to learn the same way is nearly impossible. I learned better on my own for the years prior to coming here from the states. Every class I have taken, the teachers are just instantly speaking from German without zero explanation in your mother tongue. It truly is a waste, im here on tech business as well and basically all of my colleagues speak english as its the internal speaking language for businesses around Zurich. What has helped me slightly, is memorizing german songs, and translating them via google translate, to me the speaking it and hearing it doesnt help nearly as much as memorizing vocabulary, which is what I focus on now.

>My tutor definitely spoke Spanish to me, but the first several months was all in English. I hate the teaching method where a teacher just yammers away in the target language, as if (again) by magic and special miming gestures, the students will 'pick it up.' Bleh.

This is usually the difference between a trained teacher and someone who's teaching to earn a bit of money. When English speakers go and teach English abroad, it's normally to give already-fluent people conversation practice. They don't have the training to be able to teach beginners effectively.

It is remarkably difficult to drop your language to a beginner's level. You need to remember exactly which tenses the students know (which may just be the simple present) and their extremely limited vocabulary.

The best lessons I had were where the difficult concepts were explained in English, but the majority of the lesson was in Spanish. I think a lot of teachers view dropping to English as cheating or breaking immersion, so they don't do it.

I've known people who intentionally moved to a place where people only spoke the local language (and perhaps a few word of English) and they sent their children to a local school. It was incredible to see how effective immersion can be when there's no escape hatch. Of course usually it's difficult to pull off, considering how many locals speak English and how many non-locals tend to be around.

> 1. Immersion is overrated, even if you're trying your best to study vocabulary in your off hours. You won't just start "dreaming in a foreign language" because you've been around it all day. I wasted 6 months thinking it would someday just happen magically. It won't.

> 2. No one will put up with your shitty language skills for more than 5 minutes... Except your significant other. They'll have the patience because they love you. Everyone else will just cringe after a few minutes and change to English, or just smile and wave you off.

I suspect these two put together are actually the reason why it's easier to learn languages as a child.

I'm not familiar with the evidence (how could you test this?) but it seems to me that everyone I go as an adult people will switch to English as soon as they hear I don't speak the local language.

As a child, it's different. You're constantly corrected, and people will forgive your mistakes indefinitely. Also you're hanging out with kids, and they tend to only speak one language, so you end up learning it from them.

> I suspect these two put together are actually the reason why it's easier to learn languages as a child.

This is a difficult comparison to make. When we say easier, I think we mean without conscious effort (e.g bilingual kids). How old were you when you would consider yourself fluent in your native language?

Suppose you compared an adult with five years of Spanish lessons versus a five year old bilingual Spanish speaker. Almost certainly the child will have better conversational fluency and will be better at aural comprehension, but the adult is likely to be able to express more complex things. For example I'd expect someone with 5 years of regular Spanish lessons to be able to mostly comprehend a newspaper, ignoring specific vocab. I'm not sure I'd expect the same of a 5 year old.

But now imagine an adult with 5 years of (buzzword) immersive language training. You move to the country, you speak every day (and ask people to correct you), you watch TV shows and listen to the radio, you read the newspapers. I think you could easily be comparably fluent to a 5 year old bilingual.

What you're saying is true - kids have the advantage of parents correcting them constantly, if they go to a school in their second language they'll have teachers and classmates correcting them. Though I'd argue that hanging around kids will only make you as good as those kids. That is, you will become very fluent using the language simply (which is probably the hardest to learn as an adult), but it will still take years to know concepts that adults already know and can transfer.

It’s not easier to learn a language as a child; that’s a now debunked myth. Children just don’t have any other distractions , internal or external, and literally nothing else to do.

I suggest that anyone who thinks a child has an easy time learning a language should try to explain a foreign concept (which all language is, initially) to a 4 year old.

Debunked by who?

Numerous peer-reviewed studies showing that if you add up all the hours kids spend learning their mother tongue, and then compare with adults that have made a similar investment in a second language, the adults achieve an equal or higher level of mastery.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1128751 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9280.01415

Basically there's a relationship between time invested and skill that's nearly the same no matter how old you are (and perhaps even in the adult's favor). But what DOES differ significantly is that adults typically don't spend 8-16 hours every day immersed in their target language.

Reply to self since this is now too old, but these studies are anecdotally confirmed by online polyglots who are able to very efficiently learn languages to mastery by constructing 24/7 self-immersion environments. See www.ajatt.com, for example.

I really like drills. I posted a 'A Short Guide to Independent Language Learning' on Reddit last year, it also has some advice about how to work with a tutor:

https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/66myn1/a_...

Plug: Over last couple of months, me and a friend made an extension for studying languages with Netflix, we are quite pleased with how it's turning out:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lln-language-learn...

> 1. Immersion is overrated

Well... That depends, I'd say. I'm learning Japanese, and my learning rate always spikes when I'm actually there, hearing and speaking the language all day every day.

On the other hand, most people I encounter in Japan don't try to switch languages because my Japanese, clumsy as it is, is still better than their English.

I wish I could still edit the comment to clarify: Immersion is definitely better than not being immersed, but just being in another country - even for a length of time like myself - doesn't magically teach you the language. Seems obvious when it's written out, but I definitely remember being under the impression that it would help way more than it did. Thus my 'overrated' remark.

That's definitely true as evidenced by the huge numbers of people who can survive living in various countries without learning more than a handful of words in the host language.

The highest yield for me has been 1:1 video call tutoring (italki) by a long margin.

> I went to see a wonderful older woman

One of the most joyful conversations I had in Italy was for 15 mins with this old lady at the bus stop. She was patient and tender, in a way that old people are. If there was a younger person at the bus stop that day, I'm pretty sure we would have just spent the time skimming through our phones.

I forgot to put the context: My Italian was pretty broken then. I never had a meaningful chat in Italian till that point. She complimenting me several times on how well I could talk. It helped me approach other conversations with much more confidence.

.... or just speaking English. The reach of English is now at the point where, in my experience, most people in Europe will just switch to it even if you open the conversation with them in their own language! It's actually kind of deflating ("what was wrong with my grammar or pronounciation that immediately gave away that I'm English?") and it makes building foreign language competence through direct interaction that much harder. Of course from the other person's perspective they see an opportunity to practice their English, so they are identically motivated

Immersion works much better if you have the bases because you can't have a conversation if you don't have the minimum level and nobody want to talk and waste their time to someone really bad (ain't nobody got time for that), especially in France. At the end of the immersion, worst case scenario you will have a better listening. Personally when I went traveling in South America I improved a lot, people don't talk English so you have to make a huge effort and that's how you learn, but I had learned the bases at school and read the grammar few weeks before going.

I dunno, I'm somewhat disagreeing with this. I think the immersion can work, but it requires that one:

- has some working knowledge so that you can "follow" the conversations around you. I.e. you're able to understand that "mumble mumble" was a word that you do not know.

- you actively participate and try to speak and understand as much as possible.

2. Except when you have to deal with people who don't speak anything other than the local. I live in German and am learning German and there's no shortage of people who only speak German to me and therefore they have to deal with my shitty German. They seem OK with that, it's tiring for me but also somewhat rewarding and motivating.

Of course all this depends on one's knack for languages. I did "full immersion" type of Spanish in Argentina at a Language school, 5h / day. The teacher spoke only Spanish. I'd say it was extremely exhausting but also extremely effective. I'd say Spanish lends itself well to this kind of method since the basic grammar is quite easy and a lot of the words are familiar to a native French/English speaker (basis in Latin). However this method would never work with Chinese, that language is a few orders of magnitude harder.

Overall the article is an advert for Duolingo.

> Immersion is overrated, even if you're trying your best to study vocabulary in your off hours.

That is not true AT ALL. Immersion is absolutely essential to learning a language. But you must remember that immersion means both passive listening to the language AND active speaking.

If you never speak the language because everyone switches to English, you are not immersed.

> No one will put up with your shitty language skills for more than 5 minutes.

Of course not. The point of language is communication. People will naturally become frustrated when they cannot understand another party or the communication is flawed.

The best way to learn a language is to go somewhere where no one actually speaks your language. In Europe, this might mean spending a lot of time around old people who don't speak English and talking to them.

Los Argentinos no son tan malos hablando. Hay algunos españoles que Dios mío, parece que te van a bañar la cara de saliva cuando hablan!

Jaja. You are correct, Castellano is much better in Argentina than Spain. Los Protenos are nearly speaking Italian sometimes!

Immersion can be very valuable once you learn the language to a serviceable extent.

I learnt German formally till the A2 level, and used to be able to speak in grammatically correct sentences, albeit with a limited vocabulary, no nuance and an obvious accent. (I'd say at 6 year old native speakers level)

Since then however, I haven't been around anyone familiar with the language, and now I am back to knowing nearly nothing (5 years since)

It becomes very easy to get learning new words, when 80% of the words in most sentences are familiar. You can piece the rest together. Also, people are willing to tolerate having conversation with you in the language, if they speak it natively and the conversation is short + simple. Reception and billing counter interactions are perfect for this.

Immersion can also be very valuable when languages are closely related. I have learnt other Indian languages through immersion, because they closely resembled my native language. Again, because the grammatical structure and vocabulary had major overlaps.

I do however, fully agree with hiring a personal tutor, at least for the initial few months. Duolingo can help you with only so much.

> You won't just start "dreaming in a foreign language" because you've been around it all day. I wasted 6 months thinking it would someday just happen magically. It won't.

hmm, I went abroad for three months once and after two months my inner monologue and dreams were mostly english - even half a year after when I came back my girlfriend told me that I would sometimes be speaking in english during the night.

This mirrors my experience learning German, in Germany, pretty much exactly. I falsely assumed I would just somehow pickup German by being exposed to it every day but the brain is amazing at filtering things out. I'm attending German lessons 3 evenings a week now but it's still a rough road.

> part therapist... part drill master.

The winning combination needed to teach anything to anyone are these two qualities.

The point of immersion is not to absorb the language by osmosis with zero effort, but rather keep you in a daily linguistic/cultural context. Your learning efforts will simply stick a lot better than just doing Anki cards in your home country.

> No tengo ni idea que estan diciendo por nada.

I feel this way about some Caribbean Spanish accents. I was recently in Havana and sometimes I felt like they weren't even speaking Spanish. I find Argentine Spanish pleasant to listen to.

Pro Tip: Go to Latin America (ok, maybe not Argentina in your case), there people have much more time and will talk to you on the street. Try to avoid capitals or quasi-capitals though.

Holds also for Portuguese (in Brazil)

> Holds also for Portuguese (in Brazil)

Brazil was a great place to practice Spanish. Almost nobody spoke English when I visited, so I ended up speaking Spanish with everyone. Some people spoke Spanish themselves, and for the rest, the mutual intelligibility with Portuguese was good enough to get by.

I can speak Spanish, and I find that Portuguese is really hard to understand. In written form I can usually figure out what the meaning is (as I can do with other, more distant languages such as French or Italian), but hearing it spoken, I can’t make sense of what is going on at all. It sounds like Spanish, but all wrong, and I find that I just can’t focus on trying to parse what the words mean.

You probably mean Continental Portuguese. Brazilian Portuguese is really much better for learning. They don't eat syllables and they take their time to pronounce and emphasize words. You still need to know a few rules but they are sufficiently regular to eventually start guessing words (e.g., "ue" within a word -> "o", ending "dad" -> "dade", ending "ion" -> "ão").

Source: I've had at least half a decade of frequent contact with both dialects and I still have way more difficulties with the continental version.

> You won't just start "dreaming in a foreign language" because you've been around it all day

I mean. I'll start dreaming in spreadsheets if I've been doing a lot of work in them for a couple of days, so that seems strange to me.

Thanks for writing that.

Reading it rather effortlessly made me feel like I still knew some Spanish!

> Excepto los Argentinos. No tengo ni idea que estan diciendo por nada.

The poor Argentinians, always being treated as different…

It's been shown that after puberty the chance to master a second language is statistically highly improbable. But native speakers appreciate the effort to get to an acceptable level.

Most people don't suck with vocabulary. They suck with making native sounding phrases!

They suck with the phonems!

I've absolute pitch. I can speak any language exactly how a native person would speak.

My wife knows more languages than me, yet she sounds like a foreigner based on feedback we received while traveling in multiple countries.

Most people even if they've fluency in a language will still sound like a foreigner.

Now, if you've absolute pitch you can differentiate between different pitched sound and match native speakers.

Most people can't do that!

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