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Comment by kyle_martin1 | Hacker News Reader

Great job Ricardo!

I took the 9-month Self-Driving Car Nanodegree and managed to find a job in the AV industry right before graduating.

I found the ND worth every penny because they broke down really dense topics that you’d usually need to be in a MS program at CMU or Stanford to undertake. Now I’m leading AV development at my current employer!

Like any course or degree, they can’t cover everything. That’s ok though, because you’ve learned enough to continue learning by reading current academic papers. You must be motivated though.

There’s a lot of nay-sayers on HN. I’d encourage you to ignore their excuses for not completing their ND. Usually these people don’t have enough grit or motivation to do something hard. If you really want it...you’ll work hard and persevere to get it.

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I did the Android nanodegree, and have never had so much as an interview. I think people's success after Udacity is largely determined by their educational background before Udacity. For example, the article is ambiguous about whether the student finished his computer engineering degree at university or not. I have a non-STEM degree.

On the other hand, seeing comments from people who dropped out of nanodegrees makes me consider that maybe it's a little more difficult than it seems. Moreover, the job market for mobile is just bad. It's either six figure rockstar, or unemployment. I think doing one of the javascript ones might have produced better job prospects.

At this point, I'm resigned to indie development while I work a part time non-tech non-profit job to make rent. Currently working on a MacOS desktop app that might make a few bucks, but probably not.

I used to do mobile development. You need a strong portfolio to compete. I had made around 6 apps (some my ideas and some for clients) when I got my first mobile job. Consider making some novel apps without any expectation of being paid. Nothing guarantees you a job. If you’re not hearing back...there’s got to be a logical reason. Be honest with yourself and come up with a list of 25 things that will give you an edge and start doing them. Just don’t give up!

Regarding the education comment...I’m going to disagree with you there. Employers don’t care where you went to school. They care about what you’ve done in the past (doesn’t matter if it’s at work or on the side) and what you can bring to the table. I had to compete with people with PhDs for my current AV job but I got the job because of the whole package of skills that I bring rather than theoretical knowledge in a single niche topic.

> Employers don’t care where you went to school.

This depends on the employer. Google is notorious for not only caring about your school, but your GPA. Also as someone who has looked at hundreds, if not thousands, of resumes over the years - the reality is you very quickly start to look for any sort of signal and schools are definitely something some (I would guess most) consider.

Do I think it's unfair? Sure. But recruiters simply do not have the time to look into every applicant with any sort of detail.

I’m not so sure anymore. I’ve worked at a couple FANGs and I have never looked at a candidates resume beyond their last job or two. I only look at their degree to calculate years of experience in my head. But ultimately we put faith in our interview process more than a resume. I would totally hire someone who has relevant experience than what their degrees were (or any), as long as they passed the normal interview gauntlet that everyone takes.

Engineers typically don't care so much about school, but the first filter is recruiters who do. A recruiter has <10s to read your resume and has no technical knowledge, so a good school or FANG on your resume helps you pass their screen.

years of mostly pointless assignments, lectures and pre-test cramming coupled with thousands of hard earned dollars spent on getting <10s of attention from a recruiter. Feels harsh, strange and unproductive enough to be true.

Let's say you get past recruiters and/or HR. You're sitting in a room full of potential coworkers who question how you wake up in the morning and put on your pants because they went to a four year school and have that degree. It's a club and you're not in it.

This is not the experience I had when interviewing at my current employer (or any employer I’ve interviewed at!) and I didn’t go to college.

No longer true at Google about degree/GPA.

Play around hr. Network.

> Consider making some novel apps without any expectation of being paid.

This part is non-trivial, is it? Coming up with a new kind of app idea (which is useful, not just shows 3 twirling balls or something) is not easy.

And doing the millionth todo app or something is not the same.

If you were a novice painter/cook/carpenter/sculptor/singer/accountant/mechanic what would you include in a portfolio? Now, the portfolio exists to demonstrate a skill you posess.

You'd look for established people and their works from your domain and copy them to study their methods, their style. Figure out and differentiate the core from the frills. Tweak, mix, combine, jam and fuse what you've learnt.

Then you'd merge your favorite styles together to create your own, novel work. Repeat enough times and you have a solid portfolio.

Unfortunately, the programming world is crippled with 'get rich quick' apps/websites/products.

Most newbie programmers believe that unless they have a novel idea, they cannot and should not build an app or a website. That attitude sucks the life and joy out of learning anything including programming.

I strongly urge you to copy, steal and be inspired by as many apps and websites as you can before going for novelty.

What you will learn in the process far outweighs any commercial success that you can hope for.

Good luck.

> At this point, I'm resigned to indie development while I work a part time non-tech non-profit job to make rent. Currently working on a MacOS desktop app that might make a few bucks, but probably not.

Am intrigued by your comment, as my interpretation of what you want and what you're doing seem to be at odds with each other.

My assumption is you want to get a paid developer role, whereas your side project seems to be satisfying personal curiosity (otherwise, you'd definitely already have an answer to the question of whether your Mac app would make a few bucks). The latter is immensely important in its own right, but quite likely won't solve the first problem itself (again, if it were to, you'd have a surer answer to whether it was likely to make money or not).

I flamed out of university without a degree at all, but put myself in places to get a CMO role (which I ultimately hated, but still...) at a startup because I aligned my side projects with what I wanted from my career rather than just things I wanted to build. It's a hard choice, but it's one that probably has to be made.

Also, your nanodegree looks to be unused as-is, with little link to the work you're currently doing (sure, it's an app, but Android/mobile to MacOS/desktop is about as far as you can stretch the "app" link) - how are you framing it with employers?

I'm no longer interested in a paid developer role.

If you’re still looking for paid work (dev or otherwise), reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to help in any way I can, i.e. with referrals or advice. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleenmullaney

I see a nanodegree or coding skills for that matter as an addendum to your existing skills. The branches to your 'T' shaped skilltree.

That said, you do have to adopt a non standard route to getting a job from a nanodegree. You can't apply like average graduates; you have to network, hustle, and build up a stronger portfolio than your graduate peers

"For example, the article is ambiguous about whether the student finished his computer engineering degree at university or not. I have a non-STEM degree."

According to the OP's LinkedIn profile, he started his undergrad in Computer Engineering in 2015, started doing Udacity courses in 2017, and expects to complete his degree in 2020.

>For example, the article is ambiguous about whether the student finished his computer engineering degree at university or not.

No it's not. There's explicitly a part of the article that asks if he was able to get a job without a degree. He does not have one.

There's no better resume than a bunch of portfolio projects you've built (imho)

That typically works when your works are mostly visual and the position takes that into account. Most hiring managers won’t bother reading a single line of code.

I wonder how helpful it would be to blog or make videos about them compares to just having the projects.

The geography matters. I did the Self driving car nanodegree and not having a US work permit pretty much took out all my chances. I did have an interview with Voyage but I didn't clear round 2 or 3 I don't remember.

The elephant in the room is that there's a shortage of "self driving car engineers" because the whole thing is growing so fast.

> I think doing one of the javascript ones might have produced better job prospects.

> Currently working on a MacOS desktop app that might make a few bucks, but probably not.

Why not make your side project a javascript oriented one? Two birds with one stone.

He hasn’t finished his degree

> And I’m actually still attending my university online, to finish my Bachelor’s. I’ve stayed enrolled the whole time.

I think that you’re leaving out too much of your background in this comment - the nanodegree on top of your existing EE and math degrees and years of experience as a software developer is a much better bet than doing it as a college kid or someone with no degree or professional background.

I have a SDC nanodegree too but not as lucky as you...I also have a masters in MechEng with 5+ engineering experience. Haven't had much success pivoting into the industry.

Keep trying! I’m fortunate. I worked extremely hard and passionately the whole nanodegree too. Maybe even to the point where it would seem obsessive ha.

I’d recommend reading the papers from the DARPA 2007 challenge. https://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642039904

Pro-tip: You can google each chapter title and find PDFs for free.

This is interesting! What was valuable about these papers specifically, as opposed to the many written in the past 11 years?

It’s important to understand the heritage of the SDC algorithms.

They also provide you with a lot of different perspectives from a practical system design level.

search each chapter title. no need to give free promo to a major ad company.

the less we use this as a verb, the less the next generation will use it.

and cheers on your nanodegree. i've finished 2 myself.

For those wondering too long just like I did, AV as in autonomous vehicles I presume, not adult video I presume... :))

Yes autonomous vehicle haha

What is the AV industry?

Also is it worth doing The self driving degree if you’re unable to move to Silicon Valley? I mean is it worth trying to get into that industry if you can’t move to a tech hub?

Most R&D in this field is done in or around the automotive hubs. I.e. Detroit, Munich, Ingolstadt, Stuttgard, Wolfsburg, Tokyo, Tel Aviv etc. Silly Valley companies are getting almost all of the attention, but most of them are not doing anything that is more advanced than what the car manufacturers and big automotive electronics companies are doing. The few that are genuine tech leaders are either Waymo (good luck getting into that) or have very strong ties to a car manufacturer.

The typical path into this industry is to start at a big supplier ('tier 1' in automotive parlance) like Bosch, Continental, Valeo, Delphi etc. If you are half competent, you can get yourself poached by a car manufacturer after a couple of years. You can go the HN dream path and work for a tiny Silly Valley startup in the hopes of getting equity or getting acqui-hired down the line, but that will mean far less compensation and longer hours in exchange for a tiny chance of winning the startup lottery. Though TBH at this point the handful of winners are pretty much established and the almost 100 other startups in the AD field in the Bay Area are almost definitely not going to succeed.

By context, I'm assuming they meant autonomous vehicle.

Yes Autonomous Vehicle

And my other question? Any thoughts?

IF all the jobs in field X are in locations a,b,c and you can't move there then yes seems like it wouldn't be smart to study field X in order to get a job unless you see a future where locations with that job are going to change to somewhere you can go.

I guess that’s a personal choice?

Wow. Thats great to hear. I am starting that degree in a 1 week. so pumped.

Take it seriously (take notes on paper like ‘real’ school) and be sure to read the papers from the 2007 DARPA urban challenge. See my other comment for the link.

Good luck :-)

Thank you for the link and advice. I plan to totally nail it.

hey sorry if you answered this else where ( couldn't find it), were you doing nanodeg fulltime or were working at the same time

I was working a 40 hour job and doing the nanodegree in the mornings before work. I worked on assignments during the weekend. I tried to manage my time well to avoid falling behind or having to do a project at the last minutw.

My sister was also battling cancer so this made it even more difficult from a time and emotional standpoint.

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