(this same argument works for Snowden. There are some who argue- without much evidence- that he was always a Russian asset, because he ended up there; but his eventual landing in Russia doesn't retroactively prove he was a Russian agent all along)
(this same argument works for Snowden. There are some who argue- without much evidence- that he was always a Russian asset, because he ended up there; but his eventual landing in Russia doesn't retroactively prove he was a Russian agent all along)
I don't think it works for Snowden. I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot who wanted to expose what he thought were illegalities and essentially corruption but didn't think he's survive or get a fair trial here (both of which are unfortunately very possible). I don't think he ended up in Russia at his choosing. I believe he had an original destination in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) but wasn't able to get there before his visa/passport was revoked? Something like that.
Assange is Australian.
Whereas Assange might have (depending on the facts) happily taken help from the Russian state in the name of sowing chaos. Assange has no particular ties to the US, and might have found a way to square it with whatever his morals are. Or he found an encrypted archive in his email and he just published it, provenance unknown.
https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv...
https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/
And of course he did produce a TV show for Russian state television.
I have never seen proof of this accusation? Can you link me to it? Not the accusation, but proof?
What is it: was he "used" like you said, or mislead, or intentionally aiding Russia?
To be fair the DWS scandal is a real problem, a big deal, and a threat to our democracy... and nobody was seriously punished for that. DWS is hardly the pariah that Assange is. And this happened during your second phase.
There are definitely levels of threats to American democracy. If DWS refers to Wasserman-Schultz then it pales in comparison to an enemy foreign state's military intelligence corrupting the American government.
Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary?
Now, I don't want to defend Assange's every single motive, but the DWS scandal was pure corruption, while for whatever bad Assange has done that you keep promising to show me, he has clearly shown bravery in doing some good along the way.
And by the way, revealing war crimes is not anti-American. Liberty and justice are American principles. There will always be corruption and always a need to reveal it.
It's interesting... you're asking me if I really believe something that I didn't ever say and implying I did. I actually compared the Wasserman-Schultz situation (which I think is incredibly overblown) to a sovereign foreign government's military intelligence corrupting the American government. And yes, when comparing those two things, the latter is far more worse.
By "DWS scandal" do you mean the Debbie Wasserman Schultz issues[1]? I've read about that reasonable extensively, and they don't seem a huge deal to me at all. I mean it's good she resigned, but to me it looks more like a "perception of bias is as bad as bias itself" thing.
She probably did some things that benefited Clinton in the primary, but these don't seem that big a deal in the scheme of things.
The Wikipedia link I posted seems a reasonable summary. Which of them exactly is this big threat to democracy? For example, I thought the "removal of Sanders access to database" was a big deal until it became apparent that Sanders staffers had accessed private Clinton campaign information and it was restored in less than 24 hours[2].
What am I missing?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Wasserman_Schultz#2016_...
[2] https://www.npr.org/2015/12/19/460361192/dnc-restores-sander...
Do you accept that Guccifer 2.0 was a Russian agent? If not, then it's going to be a long post.
If you do, then Guccifer 2.0 himself claimed he gave the leaks to Wikileaks[1]. Wikileaks tweeted the same information[2].
Which part is in question here exactly?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guccifer_2.0#cite_note-:5-7
But one might wonder why anyone cares about it or gives it any consideration, when there are so many far stronger data points.
The Guccifer narrative supports (weakly) the idea of a link between Russia and the emails.
So in order for this to matter you have to believe that Russia matters when considering WL.
And in order to believe that you must believe that WL's journalism does not stand on its own and that the motives of those who leaked information are what matter.
But WL is designed to be immune to the ill effects of specific political motives for releasing data. I'll point out some of the many ways:
- WL tries to verify that it is being given authentic documents. Revelations that documents WL publishes were inauthentic would sink WL nearly instantly. So authenticity absolutely must be the #1 consideration.
- For any leak there is an entity whose data was leaked. If a leaker doctored information before sending it to WL, the leaker could easily be discredited by a public release by the entity of an authentic version, revealing what had been doctored, which would reveal motives.
- WL insists upon full, unredacted documents. Most of the leaked information has been mostly irrelevant. You could spend days reading WL releases without encountering anything juicy. Why? Because the full documents provide evidence that no aspect of the document has been withheld to create a false impression. This results in a lot of boring stuff -- most of the HRC emails were bulk mail sent to the addresses in question -- but lets the legitimately interesting data stand in proper relief without suspicion.
- When possible, WL goes to great lengths to validate/authenticate data. WL created a tool to allow site visitors to easily validate the DKIM/DomainKeys signatures validating that the emails were unmodified. If salacious or newsworthy information had come from an email that failed DKIM/DomainKeys verification, WL's approach would make that obvious even to those who do not understand how content signatures work.
- WL can be weaponized by anyone against anyone. There was a US Army report identifying this characteristic early on. Falsifying the identity of leakers would of course be a valuable tactic to use when weaponizing. WL is useful because of the aforementioned characteristics and in spite of being able to be weaponized in this way. It's not novel that a government could submit intel obtained by its intelligence agency to WL to cause a political consequence in another nation. Of course this could happen. It can even be done by domestic parties like Chelsea Manning. It's a question of whether the information leaked is beneficial by providing important transparency or revealing outright fraud/crimes.
I have to wonder when people oppose Assange due to indignation about Russia or Manning if the underlying reason is actually that they don't view the war logs or the emails to have been useful investigative journalism.
That doesn't really follow.
Wikileaks has a very strong agenda. If you read Assange's book "When Google met WikiLeaks"[1] it's pretty clear what it is.
It's possible to believe that the leaks are real docs, but that Wikileaks timed their release to maximize their effect on the US election, and that matters a lot.
I have to wonder when people oppose Assange due to indignation about Russia or Manning if the underlying reason is actually that they don't view the war logs or the emails to have been useful investigative journalism.
I think much of the war logs was dangerously unreadacted, but broadly was good. I think Assange was very happy to release emails because it both suited his philosophy ("no secrets") and his agenda. I also believe Assange was corrupted by the idea that he would be able to escape his cage in the embassy through some combination of helping Trump and Russian support.
[1] Extract: https://www.newsweek.com/assange-google-not-what-it-seems-27...
Gufficer is literally a person or group of persons in Russian GRU (military intelligence). It's about as direct a link as you can get and the American government came out and said this.
Everyone from the Dutch[1] to private companies have come to the same conclusion (and had linked the hacking group to Russia before the DNC hack).
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-russia-cyberc...
The voting on this is amazing. It's gone from +3 to -2 to 0 and back up and down a few times in just a couple of hours.
It'd be really, really interesting to see the patterns of what else voters are voting for.
I don't think this comment is particularly controversial (it's a direct response, doesn't attempt to interprete the evidence, made it clear the evdidence depends on your starting point etc etc). Notably the only reply at this point at least partially agrees with this post (I think?)
I guess being part of a controversial topic leads to spill-over in voting. I suspect it's particularly pronounced in this case, because Assange's actions have made him vilified by different sides of politics at different times, and so there is always something to hate on?
I find it really fascinating, and I'd love to be able to dig into the data to see what exactly is going on.
I'm not talking about prejudice or other backward ideas, but simply ideas that challenge the dominant world view that I'd describe as Silicon Valley Establishment Democratic Party Loyalist.
There was a point during the 2016 campaign when Sam and others involved in YC decided to become openly and unabashedly partisan. Notably, not in an idea driven way but in a way that is power oriented.
This emboldened those with partisan aims in the HN discussion to reach out to mods to help them rid the community of people critical of the establishment Democratic Party and its sacred cows.
It's really too bad.
Discovering that the mods read my comments and somehow thought the account needed to be banned was pretty insulting to me. I really appreciate HN and the broader YC community and so being singled out that way for making polite and respectful arguments was (I think) really rude and inappropriate on the part of the mods.
When I emailed the mods to discuss, the excuse was that there was a "flame war". In my opinion, respectful discussion is productive even if both parties talk past each other a bit for a while until something closer to a consensus is achieved.
We are at an important time in the history of the US and I think it is profoundly irresponsible of the HN mods to try to ban any sort of political discussion from HN.
Over the years I've learned a great deal from HN, most of it technical but occasionally have gotten some valuable political insights as well. Also, occasionally reading a political interpretation from someone whose technical views I respect can be really mind expanding.
Even if one accepts the premise (that there was active collusion inside the DNC that cost Sanders the election, binding popular primary elections have only been a thing since 1972. It’s quite a stretch to call the supposed failure of that system a threat to democracy.
It's only been 50 years?