(this same argument works for Snowden. There are some who argue- without much evidence- that he was always a Russian asset, because he ended up there; but his eventual landing in Russia doesn't retroactively prove he was a Russian agent all along)
I don't think it works for Snowden. I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot who wanted to expose what he thought were illegalities and essentially corruption but didn't think he's survive or get a fair trial here (both of which are unfortunately very possible). I don't think he ended up in Russia at his choosing. I believe he had an original destination in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) but wasn't able to get there before his visa/passport was revoked? Something like that.
Assange is Australian.
Whereas Assange might have (depending on the facts) happily taken help from the Russian state in the name of sowing chaos. Assange has no particular ties to the US, and might have found a way to square it with whatever his morals are. Or he found an encrypted archive in his email and he just published it, provenance unknown.
https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv...
I have never seen proof of this accusation? Can you link me to it? Not the accusation, but proof?
What is it: was he "used" like you said, or mislead, or intentionally aiding Russia?
To be fair the DWS scandal is a real problem, a big deal, and a threat to our democracy... and nobody was seriously punished for that. DWS is hardly the pariah that Assange is. And this happened during your second phase.
There are definitely levels of threats to American democracy. If DWS refers to Wasserman-Schultz then it pales in comparison to an enemy foreign state's military intelligence corrupting the American government.
Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary?
Now, I don't want to defend Assange's every single motive, but the DWS scandal was pure corruption, while for whatever bad Assange has done that you keep promising to show me, he has clearly shown bravery in doing some good along the way.
And by the way, revealing war crimes is not anti-American. Liberty and justice are American principles. There will always be corruption and always a need to reveal it.
It's interesting... you're asking me if I really believe something that I didn't ever say and implying I did. I actually compared the Wasserman-Schultz situation (which I think is incredibly overblown) to a sovereign foreign government's military intelligence corrupting the American government. And yes, when comparing those two things, the latter is far more worse.
By "DWS scandal" do you mean the Debbie Wasserman Schultz issues[1]? I've read about that reasonable extensively, and they don't seem a huge deal to me at all. I mean it's good she resigned, but to me it looks more like a "perception of bias is as bad as bias itself" thing.
She probably did some things that benefited Clinton in the primary, but these don't seem that big a deal in the scheme of things.
The Wikipedia link I posted seems a reasonable summary. Which of them exactly is this big threat to democracy? For example, I thought the "removal of Sanders access to database" was a big deal until it became apparent that Sanders staffers had accessed private Clinton campaign information and it was restored in less than 24 hours[2].
What am I missing?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Wasserman_Schultz#2016_...
[2] https://www.npr.org/2015/12/19/460361192/dnc-restores-sander...
Do you accept that Guccifer 2.0 was a Russian agent? If not, then it's going to be a long post.
If you do, then Guccifer 2.0 himself claimed he gave the leaks to Wikileaks[1]. Wikileaks tweeted the same information[2].
Which part is in question here exactly?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guccifer_2.0#cite_note-:5-7
But one might wonder why anyone cares about it or gives it any consideration, when there are so many far stronger data points.
The Guccifer narrative supports (weakly) the idea of a link between Russia and the emails.
So in order for this to matter you have to believe that Russia matters when considering WL.
And in order to believe that you must believe that WL's journalism does not stand on its own and that the motives of those who leaked information are what matter.
But WL is designed to be immune to the ill effects of specific political motives for releasing data. I'll point out some of the many ways:
- WL tries to verify that it is being given authentic documents. Revelations that documents WL publishes were inauthentic would sink WL nearly instantly. So authenticity absolutely must be the #1 consideration.
- For any leak there is an entity whose data was leaked. If a leaker doctored information before sending it to WL, the leaker could easily be discredited by a public release by the entity of an authentic version, revealing what had been doctored, which would reveal motives.
- WL insists upon full, unredacted documents. Most of the leaked information has been mostly irrelevant. You could spend days reading WL releases without encountering anything juicy. Why? Because the full documents provide evidence that no aspect of the document has been withheld to create a false impression. This results in a lot of boring stuff -- most of the HRC emails were bulk mail sent to the addresses in question -- but lets the legitimately interesting data stand in proper relief without suspicion.
- When possible, WL goes to great lengths to validate/authenticate data. WL created a tool to allow site visitors to easily validate the DKIM/DomainKeys signatures validating that the emails were unmodified. If salacious or newsworthy information had come from an email that failed DKIM/DomainKeys verification, WL's approach would make that obvious even to those who do not understand how content signatures work.
- WL can be weaponized by anyone against anyone. There was a US Army report identifying this characteristic early on. Falsifying the identity of leakers would of course be a valuable tactic to use when weaponizing. WL is useful because of the aforementioned characteristics and in spite of being able to be weaponized in this way. It's not novel that a government could submit intel obtained by its intelligence agency to WL to cause a political consequence in another nation. Of course this could happen. It can even be done by domestic parties like Chelsea Manning. It's a question of whether the information leaked is beneficial by providing important transparency or revealing outright fraud/crimes.
I have to wonder when people oppose Assange due to indignation about Russia or Manning if the underlying reason is actually that they don't view the war logs or the emails to have been useful investigative journalism.
That doesn't really follow.
Wikileaks has a very strong agenda. If you read Assange's book "When Google met WikiLeaks"[1] it's pretty clear what it is.
It's possible to believe that the leaks are real docs, but that Wikileaks timed their release to maximize their effect on the US election, and that matters a lot.
I have to wonder when people oppose Assange due to indignation about Russia or Manning if the underlying reason is actually that they don't view the war logs or the emails to have been useful investigative journalism.
I think much of the war logs was dangerously unreadacted, but broadly was good. I think Assange was very happy to release emails because it both suited his philosophy ("no secrets") and his agenda. I also believe Assange was corrupted by the idea that he would be able to escape his cage in the embassy through some combination of helping Trump and Russian support.
[1] Extract: https://www.newsweek.com/assange-google-not-what-it-seems-27...
Gufficer is literally a person or group of persons in Russian GRU (military intelligence). It's about as direct a link as you can get and the American government came out and said this.
Everyone from the Dutch[1] to private companies have come to the same conclusion (and had linked the hacking group to Russia before the DNC hack).
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-russia-cyberc...
The voting on this is amazing. It's gone from +3 to -2 to 0 and back up and down a few times in just a couple of hours.
It'd be really, really interesting to see the patterns of what else voters are voting for.
I don't think this comment is particularly controversial (it's a direct response, doesn't attempt to interprete the evidence, made it clear the evdidence depends on your starting point etc etc). Notably the only reply at this point at least partially agrees with this post (I think?)
I guess being part of a controversial topic leads to spill-over in voting. I suspect it's particularly pronounced in this case, because Assange's actions have made him vilified by different sides of politics at different times, and so there is always something to hate on?
I find it really fascinating, and I'd love to be able to dig into the data to see what exactly is going on.
I'm not talking about prejudice or other backward ideas, but simply ideas that challenge the dominant world view that I'd describe as Silicon Valley Establishment Democratic Party Loyalist.
There was a point during the 2016 campaign when Sam and others involved in YC decided to become openly and unabashedly partisan. Notably, not in an idea driven way but in a way that is power oriented.
This emboldened those with partisan aims in the HN discussion to reach out to mods to help them rid the community of people critical of the establishment Democratic Party and its sacred cows.
It's really too bad.
Discovering that the mods read my comments and somehow thought the account needed to be banned was pretty insulting to me. I really appreciate HN and the broader YC community and so being singled out that way for making polite and respectful arguments was (I think) really rude and inappropriate on the part of the mods.
When I emailed the mods to discuss, the excuse was that there was a "flame war". In my opinion, respectful discussion is productive even if both parties talk past each other a bit for a while until something closer to a consensus is achieved.
We are at an important time in the history of the US and I think it is profoundly irresponsible of the HN mods to try to ban any sort of political discussion from HN.
Over the years I've learned a great deal from HN, most of it technical but occasionally have gotten some valuable political insights as well. Also, occasionally reading a political interpretation from someone whose technical views I respect can be really mind expanding.
Even if one accepts the premise (that there was active collusion inside the DNC that cost Sanders the election, binding popular primary elections have only been a thing since 1972. It’s quite a stretch to call the supposed failure of that system a threat to democracy.
It's only been 50 years?
https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/
And of course he did produce a TV show for Russian state television.
> ... extension of Russian military intelligence
> ... Russia airing the dirty laundry of others
> ... good for Russia
I see that the western obsession with Russia continues unabated.
This issue has absolutely nothing to do with Russia, and the suggestion that Assange is a Russian asset is unsubstantiated (just like all the other "Russia did it" claims). [1] [2].
Russians are nowadays even blamed for MP's speeding tickets [3]
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/the-v...
[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/13/labour-mp-de...
I don't think all of Wikileaks' revelations are from Russia, but even if they all are - and Russia had selfish motivations - it was a benevolent act toward the world. Truth is power, and revealing the truth to the powerless is never an evil act.
Because of how WL releases full, minimally redacted documents, there is really no reason to worry about the details. Failures of journalistic integrity happen because of strategic omissions or intentional misdirection. WL essentially can't do that because it releases the source material in essentially raw form.
But they can decline to release certain groups of documents that go contrary to whichever narrative they are trying to build.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18466194
DKIM DomainKey Identified Mail, obviously diplomatic communications must prevent spoofing (!), so those mails are signed anyway, ensuring provenance of the emails
I have to admit I have no clue as to what is the format of "leaked emails".
I do remember some of the diplomatic mails being scrubbed of identifying information of individuals (say names). This would have a low entropy, so it would seem easy to download the archives from WL, take an email with a singlle censored name, then bruteforce over alphabetic characters, and verify the hash signature. Unless WL has taken the precaution to censor at least x unpredictable bits (i.e. a single character in a name or word does NOT equate to 8 bits) where x is an infeasible bruteforce depth, in theory it should be possible to recover redactions by WL.
Edit: I may be conflating the scrubbing of names with the Snowden leaks, but I believe WL has also scrubbed some individual's nammes...
A public key for the domain name owner is used to verify the hash was generated (and thus the email sent) by the owner of the domain.
Email systems can thus quickly/easily check the validity of the hash when receiving inbound messages and flag or discard messages which lack the header or which fail the test.
Obviously leaks that reveal actual wrongdoing are an unalloyed good. When the leaks that merely provide voyeuristic windows into the routine business of institutions (e.g. the diplomatic cables), the social value of the visibility becomes less clear. When leaks of that sort dominate, and consistently target American and western interests we have to question the motives and the integrity of the conduit.
Truth is power, yes, but is that power being granted to you, or used over you?
It's also to be expected that WL's every move is scrutinized. But anti-WL action went much, much further, including a complete financial boycott from above. That was years before any allegations of Russian meddling ever entered the picture. The US has openly targeted them for years, but if they hold any grudge about this in return in the form of not pulling punches and maximizing publication impact, it is supposed to reflect badly on them? That seems more than a little unbalanced.
The skepticism only goes one way. WL has a perfect track record in accuracy. Their own story however is regularly misrepresented and misstated. Plus, never forget that it was a Guardian journalist who was dumb enough to leak the crucial password to the full diplomatic archive, in the same book where they admitted to being too dumb to Google how to open a 7zip file. Such their missteps from the traditional press are casually excused in a game of closing ranks that reminds one more of cops than renegades. So much for the enlightened and free press: they needed a bunch of crypto nerds to show them how it is done, after the tech industry stole their collective lunches, and they handed over control of their platforms and income to hordes of shady surveillance capitalists.
The traditional press' warmongering and American mythologizing is also a naked fact. So much that they even held off on the Trump bashing for a while, when he was banging that drum, calling it "presidential".
So who is really using power over whom? Who is using truth for whuch cause, and who is publishing self serving fluff pieces instead? Why should we worry about WL, when the American fish is clearly rotting from the head down, and those who are supposed to stop that are incapable of doing so?
The cablegate dump had many interesting revelations https://theweek.com/articles/488953/wikileaks-cablegate-dump...
Some may believe it is in the public interest to hide US aggression to protect ourselves from repercussions. I think it is necessary to expose US aggression to public light to minimize its use altogether. If you can't justify an action to the public, perhaps you should not be spending taxpayer dollars to do it clandestinely.
I'm not insinuating that WL was actually presented with that decision in 2016, but it seems clear their acknowledged selectivity in publication is capable of distorting the true state of affairs.
If WL had information about another party and chose not to release, it's not a distortion: the distortion already existed. But it would arguably be unethical to not act to end the distortion, if WL was capable of doing so.
Spying on private citizens is wrong but has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, which is - despite the fact govt should be held accountable, that does not mean they aren't entitled to private communication.
The public doesn't need to know every letter they wrote during their political career and their communications certainly don't have to be accessible by anyone wholesale, which is in fact exactly what WL is trying to achieve. Lower privacy != no privacy.
WL completely ignores the concepts of confidentiality, security clearances, NDAs at all levels of government, from your standard office clerk all the way up to the president and everything in between. There's no way that can be justified.
If they found that I was involved in a scandal, and gave that information to the New York Times, and they fact checked and published it, would be ridiculous for me to try go after NYT.
If the US is explicitly going after him for his role in disseminating classified information provided to him by whistle-blowers, I'll be disappointed, a little outraged, and unfortunately not completely surprised, since the US has jailed journalists before.
If the US is claiming he is a foreign agent acting against the US, and is willing and able to prove that in a court of law, without any reference to his role as a journalist accepting information from US whistle-blowers, I'll be pleased, a little surprised, and a bit suspicious that it's really about the whistle-blowing.
The fact that he won't be able to air any government's dirty laundry is for the better. I can guarantee Russia will continue to air other country's dirty laundry with impunity in the future, with or without Assange.
> Russia will continue to air other country's dirty laundry with impunity
your words.
I'm not sure I understand. How is it for the better? Shouldn't wrongdoing be brought to light, no matter the perpetrator?
I just wouldn't even speculate on that unless there was a compelling reason to make such an assumption and also a way of confirming the theory.
Yes. We have examples of exactly that happening.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/17/wikileaks-turned-down-l...
So... you do live in that world.
They don't expose the information. They keep it and use it for themselves.
Even if Assange is a Russian agent, I'd rather have him exposing things that go on than not. If he refuses to publish dirt on Russia, the leaker can go to someone else.
By making an example of him, you're just giving governments of the world more control. I can't see how you can defend this position.
> Most of WikiLeaks’ biggest revelations concern the US military-industrial complex….Why aren’t human rights abuses producing the same effects in regimes like China or Russia, and what can be done to democratise information in those countries?
> In Russia, there are many vibrant publications, online blogs, and Kremlin critics such as [Alexey] Navalny are part of that spectrum…..In Russia there are competitors to WikiLeaks, and no WikiLeaks staff speak Russian….WikiLeaks is a predominantly English-speaking organisation with a website predominantly in English. We have published more than 800,000 documents about or referencing Russia and president Putin, so we do have quite a bit of coverage, but the majority of our publications come from Western sources….The real determinant is how distant that culture is from English.
source: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/12/no-julian-ass...
Those are mutually exclusive concepts.
This is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Obviously a platform like Wikileaks can be "weaponized" by any party against another party.
I think it's a question of what is the most relevant aspect of the leak overall, not who leaked it or why. For instance, suppose someone had leaked detailed information about the misconduct of Jerry Sandusky several years before it became widely known. Would it matter if the leaker had been affiliated with a rival football program?
What I think is so ingenious about Wikileaks is that by releasing the full documents and data sets, it is very easy to take the leaked information simply at face value without worrying about what may have been selectively leaked and why.
In the case of the HRC emails, there were a few concerning themes regarding campaign finance and the Foundation, but those items could easily have been diffused if HRC had owned up to it and offered to have various experts dig deeper into the financials to show that nothing unusual was going on. For some reason the campaign chose a strategy of claiming the emails were fake, which was soon revealed as a lie by the DKIM/DomainKeys signatures on the emails themselves.
So unfortunately in the case of the HRC emails, the campaign chose a bad strategy and then got caught in a lie, all of which was much more consequential than the few bits of information that were potentially worthy of a deeper dive.
Also, one has to believe that WL would not have published damning information about Trump if it had been available. There is no evidence to support that claim either.
My take all along has been that all that is required for WL to be a force of good is for there to be no selective releasing or editorially driven redaction, and for there to be no evidence that WL sat on important information to suppress it. Neither of these have been the case.
WL did maximize the PR value of the HRC/Podesta emails, but I view that as being (especially in hindsight) more of a fundraising/bootstrapping decision than an editorial one. There wasn't anything "smoking gun"-like in the latter emails, they were all apparently released at random to much fanfare.
So anyway, I think the point is in the laundry itself, and that intent matters much less than it would with more narrowly focused leaks, such as those that traditional journalists typically use/abuse.
While dumb, I don't think he has specifically kept secrets about Trump. His actions show a definite agenda. Act two, he just doesn't realize that it is someone else's agenda.
Where is the line? When is transmitting factual information to the public journalism and when is it not?
Wikileaks actually changes the game on malicious leaks because it won't publish the typical "a high ranking source who wishes not to be named claims that ___" rubbish. Instead, it forces the source to provide the full context of the leak in the form of complete documents.
Think about how much mischief a high ranking official could cause by leaking selective or misleading tidbits to reporters... FWIW it happens all the time for obviously political reasons.
For typical journalists, the relationship with those high ranking sources is a major form of career capital, and so the journalist must accept whatever tidbits are offered, and is incentivized to present them as requested by the source.
In the normal press, leaks are used as propaganda by government officials all the time and journalists play along happily, not caring that they are often spreading propaganda in the form of off the record comments.
WL operates at an entirely different level and demands that sources not engage in mischief and supply the source material in its entirety so that the material can be judged on its own merits.
Have you read the content of wikileaks' leaks? Their twitter account is a partisan mess, but their actual leaks are some of the most solid journalism of our era.
Many people wish to discredit Wikileaks.
So far no one has provided evidence that Wikileaks has ever doctored, edited or manufactured anything in their releases.
I think that indicates something, but it's certainly not conclusive.
And they are, by their own admission.