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Comment by jonnycomputer | Hacker News Reader

If you ever have used an R Notebook written in R-Markdown, then its pretty easy to see why Jupyter Notebooks putting everything in JSON is just... infuriatingly wrong-headed. In an R Notebook, I can see my code, I can see my text, everything is exceedingly simple to understand, and I can edit it in any of the fantastic text editors out there (Jupyter's editor is not among them)

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RStudio is also my favorite editor. All my work is data science / stats related, where I like the workflow of writing/modifying code in a .R (or .py) file, and being able to quickly experiment by running chunks in a REPL with Ctrl + Enter.

R and Python are supported. No Julia, unfortunately. VS Code and Atom support similar workflows with Julia. However, the Julia Language server in VS Code is extremely unstable and I regularly lose LaTeX completions. The REPL in Atom is mind boggling laggy and slow to the point that it is much less frustrating to copy and paste code into a REPL running in your favorite terminal emulator.

Is that atom's fault or just the Julia REPL's fault? I use the REPL directly on Windows and it seems to be really slow as it will take something like "using JuMP" and precompile the module which takes time.

I think it is Juno (the Julia package for Atom)'s fault. Atom is fine on its own, as is the Julia REPL after compilation.

I just looked through Julia's settings tab in Atom, and saw the option "Fallback Renderer" with the note "Enable this if you're experiencing slowdowns in the built-in terminals." It was disabled by default, so I've just enabled it.

Subjectively, I think it feels fine now. Longer use will tell, but I suspect I was just running into a known issue some setups run into, and they already provided the workaround.

EDIT: Comparing running some code in Atom's terminal and a REPL running in the GNOME Terminal, the regular REPL still feels notably snappier -- even though I'm `using OhMyREPL`, which makes the REPL a bit less responsive.

I'd say Atom feels acceptable (and definitely not "mind boggling laggy" right now), and shift/ctrl + enter more convenient than switching tabs. So I will stick with it (for Julia). More time shall tell.

I wonder if Windows is slower. It isn't terrible, but waiting 8 seconds after typing in "using JuMP" is kind of long.

r studio supports python? does it completion and stuff like that?

It uses reticulate for REPL support, and has basic Python completions and snippets.

However, it doesn't seem to complete variable names. Eg, if I defined "foobar", it won't let me tab-complete that later when I start typing "foo".

You can use R Studio to execute the code, and you're preferred editor to do the editing, if you like.

try https://gryd.us

As a result of the serialize-to-json approach, jupyter supports R, python, scala, go, lua, bash, julia, and haskell, among others. Its accessible to a much wider range of programmers, at the cost of version control being a bit weirder.

That is a complete non-sequitur. Json in no way enables that. Just having a defined format enables that.

Emacs org-mode is proof that a simple text format with markup rules is all you really need to support multiple languages in a single file. You lose some of the simplicity of parsing the file, but you gain a ton more.

This isn't true though, right? If you were writing an org mode document about org mode, you now need an escaping mechanism to not mix your structure and text

Multi-language parsing is much harder to solve than simply enforcing some escaping mechanism in the inner protocol level and having tools do the "heavy" lifting (basically a solved problem).

Amusingly, no. Folks have done just that.

That said, you can define away a large part of the problem.

Edit: For trivial examples of "org-mode" in an org-mode document, you need only look at the documentation of org-mode. That said, I expect there to be limitations, because they make sense. Similar to how you can pretty print json inside a jupyter notebook, but don't expect to have a notebook interpreted in the notebook. (If that makes sense.)

Json enables you to chuck the notebook to any browser client anywhere on the net.

Org-mode is great, but you still have to install emacs.

Emacs is, amusingly, a lighter client than most browsers nowadays.

On point, a browser can not remember ifa notebook. Just parse the json. It can also parse text/plain. So, could show the org document without styling. The org document is actually readable. Json... Not so much.

To see the notebook, you have to have a Jupyter setup somewhere.

Edit: For example, see https://raw.githubusercontent.com/taeric/taeric.github.io/ma... which is the source for http://taeric.github.io/ChangeForDollar.html Not styled, and that is a short document, so probably woudn't be that tough to read in a json document, but I'm glad I don't have to.

How is a notebook without proper software to handle it in any way more useful then other structured plaintext-file? Yes, JSON can be prettyprinted in a browser, but what then? It's still a useless mess you can't work with.

It might be the case that serializing to json facilitates support for multiple languages, though I wonder how.

With the reticulate package in R Markdown you can run python chunks, by putting, e.g.

```{python}

for i in range(1:10):

    print("{}:{}".format(i, i*i))

# etc

```

And in emacs org-mode you can:

#+begin_src python

for i in range(1:10):

    print("{}:{}".format(i, i*i))

#+end_src

Language support in org-mode is pretty comprehensive, afaik.

I do not know the details of the implementations behind these, but my own source code is plain and simple unserialized text, and that means a lot to me.

Ah, actually it looks like I'm somewhat mistaken. R Markdown supports other languages as well. I think the real difference is that it doesn't look like R Markdown supports partial evaluation.

By that I mean that that to share the r-markdown doc it appears that you need to rerun the whole thing. It does some tricks to do concurrent visualization, but to actually share the doc you have to rerun all the R/python from scratch.

In jupyter OTOH, if I have a long running ML pipeline as part of my doc, I can render without rerunning the pipeline.

You can cache the results of an rmd cell, and you can also share the rendered version of the doc first. You're right that there's a higher emphasis on "run the whole thing," and I think that that's a conscious (and acceptable) design choice vs not being sure that the shared doc will run as provided.

Yeah I don't disagree about that, but when the question is why is this ugly format more popular, the answer "one has a share button and the other can be edited in emacs" sort of gives you the answer.

YES! R Notebook is so much better in my opinion than Jupyter. I definitely prefer to work with a simple format verses JSON for this kind of work.

Agreed, but I'm coming from the org-mode side of things. Have you ever tried git diff on a JSON file? It's not always pretty.

The main reason for json, I believe, is that the Jupyter client is separate from the backend. It's actually pretty trivial to run the engine on a beefy box while interacting on a light laptop (on the same subnet). With Jupyter Lab and some fiddling, you can put the server anywhere.

It's also trivial to export notebooks to .py files.

That said, my goodness do notebooks wreak havoc on git. I hope this in particular gets fixed as popularity grows.

Having a proper server available is even more reason to use a proper fileformat. The client doesn't care what the server handles and the server doesn't need to send raw datastructures directly from the storage.

Actually, fixing the fileformat-mess should be very simple. Just change the file-load/save-functions. Use a folder-structure with every cell being a seperate file. Or switch to XML. Or make a generic interface and allow to save in whatever the people want. Saving notebooks in Mongodb or some SQL-Database seems like a good goal for dedicated services.

> It's also trivial to export notebooks to .py files.

But this is useless if you cannot edit those py files and obtain notebooks from them.

RStudio has a server mode as well

Here is a link to why the R Notebook is a much better format for doing science. I also prefer it since I use GIT.

https://rviews.rstudio.com/2017/03/15/why-i-love-r-notebooks...

This is the reason why it is great.

> 1) Plain text representation

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