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Comment by Jun8 | Hacker News Reader

Years ago I was at a Chipotle and while chowing down looked at my cup. They had an interesting text there, called "2 minute personality test" by Jonathan Safran Foer. I loved that test because, for the first time, I saw in print a question that I had thought about many times before, which this post made me remember: "Are bonsai cruel?" (The test has many other great questions, google it).

Is forcing your will on something to make it more beautiful (shaping trees is called espalier, btw) a good thing? How about the similar question for people? Is forcing your child to take piano lessons knowing (or hoping) that s/he will thank you in the future cruel?

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https://www.ding.net/bonsaikitten/index.html <-- A piece of internet famous history...

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Bonsai is a practice in manifesting intent in a patient and peaceful manner - which results in a beautification of the universe.

It is not cruel.

For those who didn't know this was a fake website, like me, it can be horrifying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai_Kitten

Thank you. I almost puked when I realized what that site is communicating.

And then it dawned on me, that factory farming is essentially this but for chicken.

The questions: http://a-thousand-words.tumblr.com/post/87219193026/two-minu...

Some interesting thought provoking questions there.

I am not judging bonsai lovers but when I thought about trying it myself I got a little of that cruel vibe around it so I didn't go further. It's not so much about forcing your will on it but the thought of intentionally stunting something's development. Again, no big deal but I decided it wasn't for me.

Do you kill weeds or pick flowers? I can't fathom a stunted growth is somehow worse than killing a plant.

I do. I wrote that I am not judging bonsai lovers but when I thought about it it gave me a bad vibe so I didn't pursue it.

Not cruel, because cruelty requires the causing of pain or suffering to be a willful act. If you do something that causes pain despite your intentions (e.g. suturing), or you do something with no knowledge that it causes pain or suffering (e.g. cutting into a lobster you thought was dead, but it wasn't) - then it isn't an act of cruelty.

With bonsai, you really can't say where the pain or suffering is. There arguably isn't any, since many plants actually often required to be cut for health reasons (e.g. deadheading).

For thousands of years, the majority of humanity would answer that question with a resounding "of course not." Even in antiquity, only a very small niche of people would say that it is cruel, and they lived in a very localized area, so that it's possibly reasonable to discount the amount of people who held this belief as not statistically significant. Today's deep thinkers are usually philosophical descendants of The Enlightenment Era so it's no surprise that they're eager to adopt unusual conclusions when it suits their mood, but consider this: why are we so quick to check realistic probabilities at the door when we come across logical questions that fascinate us?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/69/90/ed/6990edbfa88b72dcd72cb32f9...

[edit] : slightly better quality at http://www.village-ginkgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bon...

This question for me is more about the ethics of trimming plants than about bonsai specifically. Was the original question implying a more general metaphor (not specific to plants) like the one you went into? I think trimming a plant with respect for the plant's health is in line with what plants are adapted to experience, and won't cause suffering or loss of life quality.

Is mowing your lawn cruel?

You know the smell of freshly cut grass in summer? I really like that smell, it triggers some intense memories. Then I read that the smell is away for the plant to signal distress. Now the smell triggers the memories and then a wave of gilt.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140922145805.h...

Without natural predators like wolves, bears, or bobcats, the deer population in certain areas of the United States has exploded(1). This negatively impacts overall biodiversity(2). I doubt deer like being eaten, but that's the process of life, and its vital to maintain the existing biodiversity we enjoy today.

So why would you feel guilt for the cycle of nature? Without deer, buffalo, or other herbivores in suburbia or urban environments, there has to be something to check plant growth.

(1)https://blog.nature.org/science/2013/08/22/too-many-deer/ (2)https://sciencing.com/purpose-deer-ecosystem-8659608.html

Really? What about when you purchase a bouquet of flowers? You’re essentially prizing the most asthetically pleasing plant sexual organs and giving them to your loved ones.

Equating plant behavior/parts with their animal equivalent would mean you live in a constant state of guilt and horror.

In the same way that there's a vast moral gap between causing a creature to panic and causing a kernel to panic, I feel like the word "distress" is acting more evocatively than is necessarily intended here. (But I'm no botanist!)

I don't mow anything with a face.

it's not the same. even if you are similarly "conditioning growth" in both cases, you don't care the same about both things. with lawn, I'd say most people are mowing to "prevent something ugly" more than to "make something beautiful". with the bonsai you are actually trying to make something beautiful. in a way, you are not just "conditioning", you are "designing". it's less about something practical and more about personal preference, more opinionated. and it doesn't happen only with plants. some people like myself are a bit reluctant to share certain things with others, wary that it might change the way they see the world. I wouldn't say growing bonsai is cruel, but I kinda feel it cruel, and I'd definitely avoid doing it.

I read here a day or two ago plants can be anesthetized with the same things that also knock us out.

Does knowledge of this change the equation?

Weed killer can also kill humans. That doesn't make plants sentient.

Did you know bonsai trees live longer then they would have in their natural environment?

Does knowledge of this change the equation?

I think it does :) if they live longer. my question is just fun and I like Japanese aesthetics.

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