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Comment by paganel | Hacker News Reader

I just searched my home address from where I’m typing this comment, a street name of about 10 letters followed by a 2-digit street number in an European capital city of 2 million people. Google Maps gave me the correct street name after typing 5 of those 10 street name letters and after I also inputed the street number the first result in the suggested list was the correct one. Apple Maps didn’t display the correct address at any point of me inputting the address’s letters and digits, and after I finished writing them down all and clicking the search button it redirected me to an address with the same name located 100 kilometers away. Apple Maps still has a very long way to go.

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Might it be Google Maps has the added feature of all your search history, your (real time) location and all those other privacy-sensitive data?

One Saturday morning Apple Maps displayed a message on my locked phone’s display saying something like: “You’re XXX meters away from [coffee place]”, where [coffee place] is the location where I usually drink my coffees (especially during the weekend) and where I have never checked-in at or searched online. Meaning Apple is as privacy intrusive as Google and FB, but apparently they’rs still lagging in location search.

You can disable that in the privacy settings on your iPhone though, and that data never leaves your iPhone according to Apple. Google doesn't make the same promise.

Stuff like this should always be opt-in, never opt-out.

It is opt in. When you set up your phone for the first time or after a restore, it asks

I call that nag in nowadays. Pretty common, and sad to say very effective.

Opt-in to something that is only happening inside your device?

I'm not sure these are opt-out. I think they're opt in.

I have the latest iPhone (well, it was the latest until this fall ) on the latest non-jailbroken firmware and have used an iPhone since the 5s. I go to coffee shops often. They're basically my second home.

I also use the default Apple maps when navigating, and have location turned on for a few services, including find my iPhone.

My phone definitely knows where I frequent. I recently moved cities and my iPhone recognizes my new "home" even though I never updated it. (it's where I sleep a lot, I guess).

Still, I have never gotten these location-based alerts, nor have I ever opted out of them.

I think this is callled Location Based Alerts and based on Significant Locations: https://ibb.co/eBzOQf

Apple keeps location logs, but AFAIK they never leave your device. These suggestions are made locally.

It certainly sent my geo-data outside of my phone where it was reversely geo-located to the name of the coffee shop, there’s no info on my phone alone matching the name of the coffee shop to its geo-location.

The location seems to have been sent out to do the geo location lookup, but do you think it also sent up that you’re there frequently, or anything else about your schedule?

So they do send data out.

I’m not sure you’re familiar with how the internet works.

I’m not sure I follow: a poster above said something like “Apple keeps all your geo-location data on your phone/device, no need to worry”, I followed up by saying that that’s highly unlikely, because somehow Apple was able to reverse geo-locate my coordinates into a POI, most probably by sending data out of my device, to their servers, your telling me “I don’t know how the Internet works” doesn’t enlighten me one bit.

If it matters I can agree that I’m not the smartest bulb in the room when it comes to the latest web-dev stuff, it just happened that by chance I got to work on this geo and web stuff taken together for quite some time now, just a little before Google decided to publish their Maps API (that’s early 2006, if I’m not mistaken). I remember the glorious days of writing Python scripts that would help connect in real time an external GPS unit to a N60 Nokia phone so that the images taken with the phone would be mapped to geo-coordinates written on a file somewhere that will later be used to display those images on a map. Because back in those days phones didn’t have GPS capabilities built-in. I was also the person who built the first google maps mashup around these parts of the world (a pale replica of the Chicago crime website adapted to my home city, extracting addresses from plain-text police reports automatically was fun) and ever since then I have been obsessed with geo stuff and maps on the web. But, as I said, I’m not the brightest bulb so maybe I’m missing something about “how the internet works” and as such I’d be happy to learn more.

You don’t need to take my comment so seriously. It’s a quip at the whole “data going out” thing. The first thing your iPhone does when it boots (run it through tcpdump) is contact Akamai (the CDN Apple uses). Data goes out.

The information never leaves your phone. Keeping where you go locally on your phone is no different privacy wise than keeping your text messages and your call history.

But yes it can be disabled.

I’ve just replied to a similar comment above, I’m not sure that the “information never leaves my phone” is accurate as my phone was able to reversely geo-locate my geo coordinates to the name of the coffee shop. I’m not sure how it would do that without sending my geo-data to outside of it or without trying to match my geo-location to extracted keywords from my messages (which would open another big can of worms).

Sending a data outside and keeping that data on the outside servers are two different things don’t you think? Apple might use a web api but they don’t store that data about you unlike google.

Once the data is outside of my device I have no control over it and I suspect that it is somehow stored on some server, yes.

They could have first accumulate information about where you were and then make a location lookup later, this separatimg the visit from time. They could also make some decoy geo-location request. I dunno if they do, but if i was serious about it I would.

Or maybe this being a frequent location for you they already cached the map tiles from that one time you opened the map while in the neighborhood.

Or maybe they actually loaded all POIs in your home state at some point in the past. There aren’t that many out there.

They have a whole white paper on differential privacy. But more to the point is motive. What motive does Apple have in collecting individual user location data? They don’t sell advertising outside of the App Store and that’s just based on keyword search.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056

> Meaning Apple is as privacy intrusive as Google and FB

From what I recall, Apple supposedly does not collect that data.

https://www.cultofmac.com/522515/how-to-see-iphone-significa...

Turning that off is non obvious too. I needed to when it got a bit deranged due to variable working hours and gave me travel times to the same location multiple times a day.

You can serve specific suggestions without violation of privacy.

Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google.

Unlike Google, Samsung, Microsoft or Amazon who have never rushed a product to market before it was really ready.... er.

The thing is, Apple Maps was a screwup yes, but it's never been a paid feature and you could just install Google maps if you wanted to. I would agree that we do generally expect more from Apple, but as an iPhone owner that just stuck with other better free options anyway, I have difficulty working up any strong emotions about it.

I’m European, and before apple maps; Siri couldn’t search for businesses or places of interest. “Sorry, I can only look for places and businesses in the US and when using US English”.[0]

Sure. There were growing pains, but being out from under the thumb of google is a good thing. Both _my_ user experience and my privacy as a customer has improved.

[0]: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw

> Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google.

I don't know the details but I assume it was about money. If I ran Apple, I wouldn't be comfortable displaying ads on an app that is 1. installed for all users by default 2. the user cannot uninstall.

I am OK with a built-in app doing data collection for ads provided it only starts collecting said data after informed consent. However, displaying ads from Google's ad network would hurt me in at least two ways: 1. it ruins the default experience for the users (I think Google agrees that ads are bad for user experience or it wouldn't have things like YouTube Red or soon to be called YouTube Premium) 2. it ruins my relationship with advertisers who now have to go through Google to reach my customers.

Google, I assume, is also unwilling to provide Google Maps free of charge without 1. contributing data back to make Google Maps better (and serve better, higher paying ads) 2. allowing Apple to serve as the sole ad exchange for Google Maps for iOS

Once again, these are just my guesses. I know nothing about the industry. I thought it was strange that advertisers don't simply trust Google when it comes to data about advertising and want some kind of auditing (can you imagine yet another tracking script that phones home to some consulting company that is charged with keeping Google "honest"?) However, the recent reports that Facebook lied to advertisers shows that the concern is real (if not for Google but at least for some other people). Anyway, what I have learned is that the world of advertising is built on distrust. My understanding of advertising is very limited. It seems like the industry thinks there is value in advertising that does not immediately lead to user action like a purchase. The advertiser gets value out of an ad simply being displayed even if the user has no intention of eating a McDonalds or getting an Uber at this very moment. The problem I can't wrap my head around is how does McDonalds know if an ad display impression is legitimate and how does Google know that all legitimate ad display impressions get counted and paid for without using a third party arbiter (an arbiter is unacceptable to me if I were Google)?

I'd love corrections if I made any bad assumptions. Thanks

It was about turn-by-turn directions. Google had them, Apple wanted them, and Google knew that keeping it exclusive to Google Maps was a big competitive advantage.

https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_swit...

I've read other more recent accounts that also claim Google wanted to collect more location data from iOS users in order to license their scalable vector map tiles to Apple, but couldn't find the link.

Here's an article with a bit more detail

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-map...

Thanks to you and the grand parent comment. This shows the power of defaults, right? It makes sense in this light that Google is willing to pay a billion plus dollars to Apple every year to be the default search.

I'm still amazed by these big numbers though because I just can't wrap my head around them.

It may have been about money, or because Apple no longer felt comfortable sharing all of their customers' location data with Google anytime they used the built-in maps app. I don't believe the option of displaying ads was ever considered.

Honi soit qui mal y pense...

I've used apple maps from Day 1 - I've honestly never really had an issue with it - other than very early, it had huge issues with finding addresses - they fixed that within the first year.

No mapping application should, can, or will be 100% accurate its up to you as the user to ensure the directions given are sane and reasonable.

I assume you live in the US or you wouldn't be saying that. It's essentially unusable in Germany. As important privacy may be, Apple Maps simply isn't a competitor in Europe. OSM might be. Apple isn't.

As long as we’re doing anecdata: Apple Maps is leaps and bounds better in the archipelago of Stockholm, Sweden. Google Maps is basically impossible to navigate with in a kayak.

In Stockholm urban area it’s about the same, but the Apple Maps UI is anecdotally easier to use (my mom being the test subject)

This is fantastic. Do you get any different types of direction when on the water? I’m imagining the head scratching when a feature request comes in for tide and wind would seem helpful to be incorporated into travel time.

I mean, of course they didn't design Apple Maps for seafaring. It would be super useful though to get local wind speeds estimates, and directions -- and in particular predicted wave heights! Nothing to get the blood going like meter-high waves on the outer coast. Do or die kind of deal.

And the guy in charge of that got fired. Apple held itself accountable for that mistake. Meanwhile at Google, they continue to double down on privacy-hostile business practices.

As a self-determination card.

If you're thinking in 'customer journey' terms (and I don't just mean maps), you don't want anyone holding segments hostage.

I'm sorry, but what on earth does this have to do with the linked article?

With the statement from Wozniak saying that after Apple bought Siri the results from queries became way worse. Instead of coming up with the actual 5 lakes it now comes up with some realtors.

Interestingly, just yesterday I saw an Apple Maps Car crossing the Benicia bridge... What I thought of seeing this was "Oh, wow - an apple maps car - don't see to many 'maps cars' around any more... interesting"

So, it shows they have some self-awareness of the problem.

How is this in any way relevant?

That's because Google knows where you live.

Apple also knows where I live and where I drink my morning coffee (pls sea the other comment I made reguarding this).

Apple doesn’t. Your phone does.

And any day of the week, with their lawyers' approval, apple can release an update where they pester you with a fullscreen notification until the end of time asking you to upgrade to a new OS version where they do send all of that data back

If you have a contact card for yourself and have set it as ‘me’ than Apple of course knows everything on that contact card.

Apple does not.

Gee, I wonder how your address book shows up on icloud.com then. Magic?

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