[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc
[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc
[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a...
That's not an accurate summary of Damore's motives, or the reasons for firing him.
on the other hand bending over backwards to assist an oppressive - but lucrative - dictatorship in implementing a real-life version of Oceania's Ingsoc
Corporations are amoral by design. So I don't find this odd at all, but is an incredibly dangerous development.
What is then?
For the capitulation to China, though, the scale seems different. I would agree with the parent that this seems to contradict core philosophy -- much of the words espoused in their "Owner's Manual for Google Shareholders" in their IPO (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000119312504...) now seem hollow (for reasons more than just this). Do they still believe strongly in the "long term" as they claim? How does submitting to one of the world's most repressive places (information wise) "make the world a better place"? You certainly can't claim "unbiased and objective" search results when there is a government telling you certain things you can't include. Companies may be amoral by design (as another poster said) but Google at least in their manifesto certainly seemed to strive to be different. Not anymore, apparently.
The e-mail Larry Page should have written to James Damore - https://www.economist.com/international/2017/08/19/the-e-mai...
But past that it was a pretty reasonable argument. Pruning out the par-for-the-course of accusations that Damore really meant something other than what he actually wrote it made for an interesting and constructive read.
1. "Then you make a giant leap from group differences between men and women on such measures as interest in people rather than things, or systematising versus empathising, to differences in men’s and women’s ability to code"
The author seems to think that ability to code is some inborn talent that must be evenly distributed between men and women. Coding ability (like math, knitting, doctoring and literally every other human skill) is a confluence of natural talent, interest, coaching, and raw time spent. People can have equal talent for a skill, but ultimately have radically different ability due to their chosen paths in life. If Damore's hypothesis is correct and men do have a greater natural interest in coding, then we could expect men to have a greater ability to code, on average, even if men as a whole had less aptitude for coding. Damore didn't clarify because he probably didn't expect anyone to interpret his words with such malice.
2. "You ignore many other gender differences, basing your argument only on a few that you think support your conclusion."
These differences should be cited and used to build a counter argument.
3. "You’re ignoring everything else that could explain the gender gap."
Damore's memo does not take place in a vacuum. It's an alternate view offered in contrast to the popular mainstream view.
4. "The gender differences you cite differ between countries and over time."
Not an argument, or even a rebuttal. More of a confounding factor.
5. "They (gender differences) don’t even support your argument, because you don’t seem to understand what makes a great software engineer...Software engineering requires a broad mix of skills ... Teamwork, in particular... Senior engineers must manage teams—and by your own reasoning that should mean that women, with their greater empathy and interest in people, should be over-represented at that level."
Being a low level software engineer is a prerequisite to being a high level software engineer. If women are underrepresented at the bottom, it's expected they will be underrepresented at the top. You might expect an "enrichment" effect of women in management, but there may be other factors (that I'll talk about later) that result in women leaving the software profession before that point. All of this assumes that high empathy and interest in people are even required to be a good manager. Steve Jobs was often considered a good leader but it doesn't seem like he gave a crap about the people under him.
6. "You clearly don’t understand our company, and so fail to understand what we are trying to do when we hire"
Not an argument.
7. "Even if you are right that more men than women are well-suited to the job of software engineer at Google, you are wrong that taking steps to recruit more women is inherently unfair to men."
Not an argument.
8. "There is plenty of evidence that women in Silicon Valley suffer sexism and discrimination. Read Susan Fowler’s description of the harassment she experienced at Uber before leaving the firm in December. Look at the responses to “Elephant in the Valley”, a recent survey of senior women in tech: among its findings was that two-thirds had been excluded from networking opportunities because of their sex. And beyond our industry, women are less likely than men to be given plum assignments, are given less useful feedback, are seen as pushy when they ask for pay rises (men are seen as ambitious) and, in leadership roles, may be seen as either competent or likeable, but rarely both. “We need to stop assuming that gender gaps imply sexism,” you write. But we know there is sexism! We don’t need to infer it from the existence of gender gaps."
An argument! All of this is certainly true and should be addressed by internal and legal processes. In addition, all of these are potential explanations of the gender gap in software development. However, these points alone are not sufficient to make that argument. What we need here is context. Does the rate of discrimination differ between fields that are lopsided, like computer science, and fields that are more even, like law and medicine?
9. "Finally, let’s look at your contention that by trying to recruit more women Google is discriminating against men. You seem to think that if we stopped paying any attention to applicants’ gender when deciding who to hire, we would naturally converge on the “right” share of men and women, that is, the share that matches the distribution of talent in the recruitment pool. I don’t believe that. Unless we make special efforts, some women will be put off applying by the heavily male culture; those doing the hiring will be influenced in their assessments of candidates’ ability by the stereotypes they’ve formed in that male environment. We should “treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group,” you write. That is what we are doing."
This is so much feeble it hard to figure out where to start. First, no one really cares about talent in the recruitment pool, even if they use the word "talent". What they really care about is ability (see my above definition of ability). If you have solid math skills but can't tell a for-loop from an if-statement, google probably isn't trying to recruit you for a programming job. "Special Efforts" is the problem, not the solution. Harvard makes "special efforts" not to recruit asians. Fifty years ago, companies made "special efforts" to hire white men. "Special Efforts" are discrimination, full stop. Reverse sexism is still sexism.
In this article's quest for "context", they missed all of it. There are a couple of major data points that they glossed over.
1. The paradox of gender ratios in STEM fields by country. Gender ratios in STEM fields are most extreme in countries that are most gender equitable (like the nordic countries) and least extreme in countries known for sexism (software developers in Zimbabwe are 50% women and india has a much higher percentage of women in programming). One explanation is that Software development in these countries is composed of more westernized individuals who have more progressive views than other people in their country. The other explanation is that talented women are basically "funneled" into computer science in those countries because it's even harder for them to enter other professions.
2. The prevalence of women in law and medicine. The stigmas against women entering these was pretty extreme, yet women smashed these barriers to the point where most people entering the medical profession are now women. There are still areas in medicine that are male dominated, but there are also areas that are female dominated.
There's also a philosophical question that needs to be addressed. Is the existence of a gender gap proof of sexism? If yes the forensic science and veteranarian science have a lot to answer for. Those professions are more lopsided in favor of women then computer science is in favor of men.
Obviously the issue is complicated, but it's not clear that the discrimination that women face in computer science is greater than they face in other fields where representation is more equitable. My biggest takeaway from Damore's memo was that Google was 110% committed to the idea that the gender imbalance is due to sexism. And since it can't find particular instances of sexism to punish or stop, everyone must be so guilty that they can't see it. Google's response to the Damore memo says quite a lot.
These people will brand fascist those who urge for calm conversation supported by facts and reason. They will deplatform and protest and even violently attack those who speak up about there being more to this stuff than discrimination, namely individual motivation, and whatever the gender influenced magical secret sauce is that forms human motivations and personality especially when you look at population averages.
Bret Weinstein and Jordan Peterson for example agree and talk about these things, the cultural phenomenon of 'group identity', 'social justice warriors' and 'equality of outcome vs. equality of opportunity' and are generally opposed to this radical movement that tries to tell us that you are defined by what you (must) identify as or what group you belong to, eg. white heterosexual male.
Bret Weinstein, professor of biology, gets attacked and has to resign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_State_College#2017_p...
Jordan Peterson gets protested a lot and labeled a right winge extremist despite being left wing liberal (but an advocate for 'fixing your shit' so you can 'step up your game'): https://www.queensjournal.ca/story/2018-03-06/news/jordan-pe...
imo you've overstated his point, I think he would argue that some of the difference can be explained by biological differences. But if that was the full extent of his assertions I don't think he would have got into so much hot water. As I've argued elsewhere on HN, Damore made several further claims, such as:
1) Hiring practices and funding which aim to counter the gender gap are wrong...
2) ... and Google cannot see this because of its inherent left-wing bias.
While there are actual differences between individuals, what is presented as an objective biological fact is often a false projection of someone's subjective biases (i.e. sexism and racism).
And here's your boy Dave Rubin:
"In an interview in March 2018, Rubin said he would vote for Donald Trump in the 2020 U.S. presidential election if a progressive like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, or Gavin Newsom is running against him.[29] Rubin also characterized President Trump as a political moderate, saying "he's a Democrat in a lot of ways", and spoke favorably of Trump's cuts in government regulations.[30]". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rubin
Also, it is not at all surprising that it would be right-wing nut jobs who would approach Damore -- as we can see even here, no one else wants to discuss it, no matter what the merits of the argument, such as they were, might be.
So, she is drastically misrepresenting and misunderstanding ONE point he made in ONE chapter of his book (hardly a foundation of his philosophy), and she openly admits to having never read his book, and that's the example you want to give? Interesting...
Can someone mansplain "hate-reading" to a layman?
The act of reading a piece of writing by someone you dislike for political reasons and mentally discrediting them by refuting their arguments with specious or fallacious reasoning. Primarily undertaken in the conscious pursuit of confirmation bias.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myt...
So in the story they found a stronger correlation between tacit knowledge than simply IQ for instance.
I mean, that's precisely what people disagreed on. One side thinks his way is the best and most obvious way of getting to the truth, and the other side thinks he's a deliberate provocateur who's loose with his facts. There's nothing wrong with being on a side, but at the same time we shouldn't paper over that it is A Side.
The resulting meltdown and repetitive lying about his memo just goes to show how right he is. Nobody has successfully defeated his arguments which aren't even complicated, they're obvious and common sense. Instead they just try to shoot the messenger.
This is kicking the can down the road on noticing the disagreement. Some people think he wrote in a perfectly reasonable, rational way. Other people think he wrote in a deliberately provocative way, to cause a stir. It's certainly possible to use polite-sounding language in deliberately provocative ways.
Just to go with the most extreme possible example, if I wrote an article about any conceivable version of "was the Holocaust really as bad as people say?", it wouldn't be enough to just word the whole thing politely. I'd have to be extremely considerate of my audience audience to write something like that, and of the real world context in which my audience was going to read the article, and what it would mean in light of their experiences. My motivations for choosing that topic would be under intense scrutiny, since everyone has heard heard similar-sounding things before from horrible people. If I'm not extraordinarily considerate about those things, I'm either an idiot, or I'm deliberately causing trouble. Anyone can see that, right?
Some people feel that way about Damore's arguments. They feel the content is inherently hurtful, such that starting an "even-keeled, rational-sounding debate" about it is inherently rude, at least without doing a lot of work to acknowledge the feelings context. And then obviously lots of other people feel differently. That's a big disagreement, and you don't have to be an insane person to be on either side of it.
Did Google say he was fired because he lacked a moral compass?
The opportunity cost of not getting in on the Chinese market by being complicit in human rights abuses is in the billions, and possibly some direct costs if you generate badwill (so, let's add the cost of keeping up a farce for the employees just to be thorough, which is probably in the millions). As long as you keep everyone in the dark about what you're doing you can reap the benefits.
It is far more likely for such a competitor to turn around and launch a censored version in the US, just changing the censorship criteria. Can you imagine the impact of a partnership between the Murdoch empire and a search engine with ideological censorship built-in?
It sent a message to the entire world that Google is staffed by extremists who systematically cannot be trusted to provide unbiased services or search results for anything involving women or feminism. It caught the attention of conservative politicians. It killed dead the idea that Google is run by logical, data driven people (as Damore's memo was basically a big pile of data and studies), and judging from what my friends who still work there think, it created huge cynicism in the developer workforce too. It very much did not "appease the devs" unless you are naive enough to believe that Damore is some outlier in disliking diversity programmes in tech firms.
But as others have said, the common denominators are profit, social credits, employee demands (only a few people resigned b/c of the china initiative), suppression of individual opinions and elevation of collective opinions, corporate leadership, corporate power, innovation and culture that leads to innovation, etc.
Anyone else care to identify other parallels between these two actions?
Disclaimer: I wrote the post.
Damore might have considered it an "honest" discussion from his perspective, but there was no chance that it was actually an even handed analysis. The memo was poisoned by his words from the start.
He claimed that writing the memo would put his career at risk because left wing opponents would attempt to purge him. In fact the memo wasn't even primarily about gender, it was about anti-conservative bias at Google. This claim was proven entirely correct by what happened next.
The reason he used the phrase "cultural Marxists" is because Marxists have historically relied heavily on purging institutions or ideological opponents, suppression of speech, insistence on conformity and relentless lying about people they dislike. Given that all these things have happened to Damore it appears to be an apt analogy.
To give an example outside technology, think of prisons - largely staffed by and filled with men.
A democratic socialist or a libertarian would want to close prisons.
A neoliberal wants the prison to hire more female guards.
Yes, as I said, they're neoliberals ;)
> A neoliberal wants the prison to hire more female guards.
afaik, a neoliberal wants the prison to be able to hire whoever it wants without meddling regulations causing inefficiency and putting more strain on the hiring process.
Either way, I laughed.
I think it depends how you define social progressivism. They buy into basic tenets - for example, gay marriage. Basically, progressive when displayed alongside a far right party.
It wasn't an open honest discussion.
He wrote some memo and it was pass around the Google until some people found out and got offended.
If he wanted an honest discussion he shouldn't be passing notes around like it's highschool. The memo apparently ended up being pass by more and more people. That's not how you approach this or many topics that are sensitive. I think his lack of common sense and clarity screwed him over really.
This is my understanding base on this article:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kzbm4a/employees-...
Gizmodo have the full letter:
https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...
This is before we even approach this sensitive topic, regardless how anybody feel about it, he have already messed it up from the get go.
Because I've sourced my stuffs and showed how I base my discussion and form my thoughts on my subject with those sources. If I am wrong I would like to learn from it. Otherwise just posting this means I have to take your word for it without any evidence and I don't do that.
You are making the perfect the enemy of the good here. Your idea of "honest discussion" and claim that how not to approach topics that are sensitive is completely subjective. You are trying to silence his voice (just like google is silencing many chinese voices). You dont make the rules about how someone gets to speak.
I dont think he was productive in his desires but I do believe that he was candid , genuine and I would never tell someone they dont get to epxress their honest thoughts.
Think of the past decades with gay rights , trans rights and you want to tell someone they cant express their thoughts and need to keep their ideas in the closet. Is bigotry from the LGBTQ crowd allowed but we cant be bigoted against them? This double standard keeps us all back from making a truly free society. It seems google and and from your argument that this freedom is subjected and carefully tailored from elite that designate what voices should be heard and silenced.
I don't have to make any rules. I'm saying how he did it got him fired. If you think how he did it is correct go ahead and do it in all of those tech companies. You think you won't be risking getting fire doing the way he did it?
Whether you like it or not. Just like his memo trying to be slapping hard truth down. I'll give this unpopular opinion down. There is always rules on how to sell your idea and say things especially sensitive matter. If you're going to go blunt about it, don't get mad if you're going to get fire. Actions have consequences. He could have gone about it many ways and if you think his ways is the best go ahead and do it at your company with his memo. I wouldn't be surprise you get fire.
Rules? Ha. I just have to point to what happened to him. He got fire cause his way got him fire. Rules? You think this idealist thought of yours work with people? Try managing people with many different ideas and being blunt all the time.
You're the same as the people that didn't like his memo. You can't handle the blunt truth and got angry.
Also here's a thought experiment. Why don't you use your real name instead of a username handler and post the same thoughts online.
I'd like to see if you act the same way with your real name as a username.
This is some top-tier trolling, right here. Thanks for the laugh.
Most Google employee that didn't like the China or Pentagon collab protest by leaving.
His memo from the get go divided people into groups. Is that really how to sell an idea? So the people reading this either going to like it or not. It made it so easy for the reader to fall into a group because it did it for them. Is being blunt a good thing at all? The things he said about women, whether or not I agree with it, being blunt about it is such a bad way of presenting his idea. Bringing up negative stuff over and over instead of positive is not a good way about trying to convince people to your side. You can just focus on whatever strength/positive your solution on your side and address little to none of the other side negative. There are books out there for persuasion; it's not some evil technique, it teaches you how not to come across as a social lunatic when talking about sensitive subject.
If you don't agree with it's fine because for me, it's not a mole hill worth dying for.