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Comment by jhfhhhf | Hacker News Reader

"Catcalling, harassment, sexual demands for career advancement, rape" - those are not nearly in the same category. And it is presumably offers of career advancement in exchange for sex, not sexual demands.

I'm sorry - I don't approve of sexual harassment, but with all the hysteria, I am still not sure how often women simply consider sexual interest to be harassment. It seems to me sexual interest is a normal aspect of human life. And being attractive also has advantages, that the #metoo crowd never mentions. We don't really know how many women actually benefited from being attractive. Weinstein claimed many women took him up on his offer, after all.

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Not very often at all. We know the difference. We know, or learn quite quickly, as do the vast majority of men, how to politely say no, to those who wish to be polite.

Stop assuming this is hysteria, it's not. It's a collective, we're just tired of this. And let me also offer some quick and dirty math to support that it's not a majority of men. Let's assume 1% of men don't know how to be polite and in fact enjoy being abusive. They do this on average 1/week to a randomly chosen woman. Within a relatively short time every woman will have had at least one unpleasant experience.

For the most part these individuals pick on people they presume to be easy targets, so some women get treated much worse than others, just as men who are perceived to be easy targets equally have problems - probably with the same guys. That's also why the power dynamics play into it, the definition of easy target depends on that. And at some point, everybody just gives up, deals with their situation as best they can, and tries to never go upstairs ever again in Yale frat houses.

It clearly is hysteria. Maybe it's uncovering a real problem (I am inclined to believe data like from this article), but it's most definitely, obviously a hysteria. The media is very happy to pounce on accusations, and many of the most widely publicised ones have turned out to be either completely false (A Rape on Campus, mattress girl, Oxford Union, Duke Lacrosse, Jian Gomeshi) or extremely overblown (Tim Hunt, Rosetta guy). We cannot talk about this problem clearly and rationally and devise sensible and effective solutions until people stop being hysterical.

This isn't just about the most widely publicised events (in which just as many and more as the ones you listed were spot on) but about something that impacts women at every level of society. Try talking to your female friends about it.

You're both right here, but also remember that the 'hysterical' ones are a tiny slice of the people who are upset about this. We'll never get to a place where there aren't at least a handful of manic twitter addicts being crazy about the issue.

Waiting "until people stop talking crazy" just means no action, ever.

Do you understand that if you perceive non-harassment as harassment, you're perceiving it as harassment, so of course you think you're not misperceiving it? Like, you get that reality is sometimes different from your perception of it?

If someone suggests you're misperceiving something and your only reply is "I'm not because I know I'm not," you have an obvious epistemological problem.

If it's one woman who stands out in complaining about harassment, then maybe you have an argument. But you have to believe that a giant chunk of the female population are oversensitive and have siege mentalities in order to actually make a counterpoint to the study.

Do you actually believe that many women are oversensitive to harassment?

Not really a giant chunk, just a very vocal chunk which might well just be a minority.

Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. At the very least, many don't really have the comparison to what it is like to be unattractive, which is not very pleasant, either.

Many people expend a lot of money and time to become more physical attractive. Few people expend effort to become less attractive.

What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. So telling such stories is a double whammy: you can show proof that you are attractive, and get some pity points and protection, too.

> Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim.

Harassment isn't the same as interest.

Heck, expressions of interest aren't the same as interest.

You are insulting men by equating male sexual interest with harassment.

> What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive.

No, you don't.

Because the people who actually take accusations of sexual harassment seriously don't associate it with attractiveness (people who habitually defend harassers or who are serial harassers themselves like to associate them, at least rhetorically, as part of a defense against harassment claims by arguing that the accuser isn't attractive enough to harass, but that's about as far as the association goes.)

>What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive.

I'm more surprised than I probably should be about how much this misses the mark. You don't actually believe only "attractive" women are sexually harassed do you?

That's the thing about personal experiences - they tend to transcend epistemology - but fortunately, at least in my case, not basic self-defence techniques.

Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise.

That would be the ultimate goal of the power game feminism is playing. Political correctness is another tool for that, censoring my thoughts.

If you want to convince me, show me things I can perceive and factor into my estimate of the situation. Don't ask me to simply believe stuff. That would be mind control and power games, and I am not playing.

Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise.

What? You're just saying in a roundabout way that the truth is whatever you think it is. That doesn't make any sense.

What would it take for you to accept the conclusion of the posted study at face value?

Usually when I encounter someone claiming a great feminist agenda, their minds were made up beforehand and they never even tried to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe you're the exception, but that would be counter to my perceptions.

Let’s I do something to you and you really don’t like it, but I think it’s okay.

Imagine I say, “Why are you misperceiving my actions as harassment? You seem to have an epistemological problem.”

What’s your response?

> I'm sorry - I don't approve of sexual harassment, but with all the hysteria, I am still not sure how often women simply consider sexual interest to be harassment.

Here's the thing, business interactions are not the appropriate venue for expressing sexual interest. If someone is giving a pitch to VC's to secure funding for their company, it should be about business, not about someone trying to satisfy their sexual desires.

> It seems to me sexual interest is a normal aspect of human life.

Lots of things are a normal part of the human experience, but are not appropriate in a professional setting.

> And being attractive also has advantages, that the #metoo crowd never mentions. We don't really know how many women actually benefited from being attractive.

No, no, no, this is wildly misguided. Full stop, #metoo is about sexual misconduct and the culture that allows it. Even if some women are given preferential treatment due to their looks, it in no way justifies sexual abuse/misconduct. It does not justify abusing power to suit sexual whims, even if some women acquiesce to it.

> Lots of things are a normal part of the human experience, but are not appropriate in a professional setting.

That's true, but I've given this a lot of thought, and I've come to the conclusion that it's simply impractical and inhumane to forbid romantic/sexual interest in a professional setting. Let's face it, most new people you meet in your adult life, you meet through your job, and many people start relationships and even marriages with their coworkers.

I think we should encourage emotional maturity and sensible behaviour instead. Although this too is difficult, because most people can't achieve the former, and the latter is extremely elusive especially in the current climate.

Its about the balance of power. Expressing interest in someone you have authority over is inappropriate, and definitely should be forbidden. We mustn't just revert to 'boys will be boys', that hasn't worked out well at all.

> That's true, but I've given this a lot of thought, and I've come to the conclusion that it's simply impractical and inhumane to forbid romantic/sexual interest in a professional setting. Let's face it, most new people you meet in your adult life, you meet through your job, and many people start relationships and even marriages with their coworkers.

Romance in the workplace shouldn't be forbidden under any and all circumstances but there should be a number of definite parameters:

I don't think there is anything wrong with politely inviting someone to hang out after work to see if the interest is mutual. If the answer is no, that's it, you don't ask again.

Expressing 'sexual interest' at work to me means communicating that you want to have sex with someone, which I don't think is appropriate at work. That would be along the lines of inviting someone to spend the night, sexual innuendos, or other forms of flirting. All of that is problematic in the workplace.

Some people will argue, "What if the interest is mutual?" Sure, but many people don't/won't perceive when it is not, and work is not for finding sexual partners.

'Romantic interest' is more along the lines of communicating you'd want to date someone. Even that is not something that should be going on at work. If two coworkers establish a connection and pursue that outside of work, ok.

Even then, a superior should never date subordinates. And in a sales or investment situation, it should be off limits to proposition someone seeking the sale/investment. Someone pitching their startup shouldn't feel pressure to reciprocate someone else's advances in order to preserve a chance for funding.

> I think we should encourage emotional maturity and sensible behaviour instead. Although this too is difficult, because most people can't achieve the former, and the latter is extremely elusive especially in the current climate.

I would agree, but what does 'sensible' mean? I think many times the offender didn't think they were doing anything wrong. I think people need to speak directly to what is ok and what is not ok so that there's a shared understanding.

> I would agree, but what does 'sensible' mean? I think many times the offender didn't think they were doing anything wrong. I think people need to speak directly to what is ok and what is not ok so that there's a shared understanding.

Ah, yeah, that's exactly what I meant. The "rules" need to be clarified and spelled out as much as possible. It's just that I'm not smart enough to decide on what they should be (in part also because I'm very adaptable and extremely tolerant to behaviour others consider inappropriate).

"business interactions are not the appropriate venue for expressing sexual interest."

That is bullshit feminist invented to support their victim narrative. It used to be 30% or more of couples met at work. It is normal to fall in love or get interested in people you are surrounded with.

This "professional environment" feminists love to talk about doesn't exist, because people are not robots. People have relations with each other. Even among men, there will be colleagues that bother you, or some that you like and become friends.

There are maybe some rare cases of companies aiming for that "professional appearance", but it is all fake. If that is your thing, go seek out such companies. But don't ask other people to change their work environment.

> "Catcalling, harassment, sexual demands for career advancement, rape" - those are not nearly in the same category.

Yes, they are in the same category of “unwanted sexual conduct”.

Now, sure, there are narrower categories each could also be put in which exclude some others.

> I am still not sure how often women simply consider sexual interest to be harassment.

Interest is an internal state; women may not want you to have interest, but short of some outward act they are unlikely to have anything to consider harassment.

If you are expressing unwanted interest in the workplace, or particularly in a context where you exercise economic power over the subject of that interest, they aren't wrong to view it as harassment.

"I am still not sure how often women simply consider sexual interest to be harassment"

There are lots of ways to address this, but I'll limit myself to probably the biggest issue involved: Power dynamics. If your boss expresses sexual interest in you, it puts you in a very difficult situation if the interest is not mutual. See result #4 in the article, and read through some of the comments here for examples.

Right, what they have in common is the idea that the situation gives the woman less rights. Either she owes the man sex in exchange for promotion at work, or the man can take sex because his position outranks hers. Once the determination is made that she can't say no (or not without a fight), something has gone seriously wrong whether it progresses to rape or not. And yeah there's a spectrum and yeah there are other axes we can judge the situation on, but there's a litmus test here and it's not asking a lot to pass it.

Of course they aren't in the same category. I wrote them in increasing intensity. But all of them happen more frequently than a lot of men think.

This has nothing to do with being attractive. Ask a bunch of your female friends how many of them started getting catcalls at age 12. You might be surprised.

In my local non-software community, a key figure in the local Renaissance Festival was brought down by rape charges, which led to a plethora of #metoo among female friends who dealt with him.

I brought this up to my daughter, who is 24. She said "Yeah, I was warned not to be alone with him when I was 10".

And I, as a devoted father who has a very close relationship with his daughter (she's one of my closest friends, honestly) had no idea about this. This should give all men pause. What else do you not know about, that happens to your spouses, your sisters, your daughters, your mothers, your friends?

Also worth asking: what have you said to or around those women that made them believe they can’t trust you with those stories?

That's a good question, something all men need to ask themselves (after they get over the stupid idea that it isn't happening or women are making it up)...

Here's the thing. It's so common for women that they don't detail every little incident in their lives to every man in their lives, because it's too much to track. Do you remember every driver who cut you off in traffic? That's kind of the level of the low-grade sexual harassment women deal with. It's just about every day.

So no, I'm not told everything. And hopefully, most of the time, it's not that the women in my life are afraid to speak up to me about it. It's not that my then ten year old daughter was afraid or ashamed to talk to me about being warned about a lecherous, creepy man in a position of power. It's that even then, she knew it was part of life as a woman.

By age 10, I had already asked a few female friends to be her "bad aunties". Their job was to be adult women she could talk to who weren't in her chain of command - not parents, or teachers, or officials of any sort. They were there to listen and advise when she needed it. And they were specifically asked to keep her confidence no matter what - even from me, and her mother. And she knew this. She knew she had adult women her life she could turn to when she didn't have anyone else she felt safe with, knowing that her parents trusted them with her.

I recommend this to every father.

If you're not sure of the difference between interest and harassment, you're probably part of the problem. And I'll note that guys who say that rarely have trouble telling the difference when it's another guy expressing sexual interest in them.

im honestly not sure what your point is here about guys hitting on guys, but in my experience being hit on by women it is a genuinely blurry line.

in general, it makes me very uncomfortable to be touched by someone without giving explicit consent, and over the years this has happened quite a few times (ranging from touching my hair at a bar to forcibly trying to restrain me from leaving after i decline sex). but if someone who i already consider attractive grabs me and starts talking to me, i don't necessarily mind and i might even like it. a whole range of behavior goes from uncomfortable to enjoyable in proportion to how much i am attracted to the person. on the flip side, knowing how uncomfortable it makes me, i will basically never touch anyone (other than to shake hands), unless they have explicitly told me it's okay. i think people perceive me as being kind of cold because of this.

my point isn't that the ambiguity condones bad behavior in any way, but rather that you shouldn't make such sweeping statements to shut people down who might be trying to have a good faith discussion. this stuff is complicated and we need to talk about it.

Yes, as a fellow human being living in this culture, I also understand sexual dynamics are asymmetrical and complicated. Thanks.

That said, I don't think there's much reason to think that a person who created a throwaway account to undermine the legitimacy of #metoo is really trying to have a good-faith discussion.

The point about my comment on men not understanding consent and boundaries is that it is very often a convenient lack of understanding. The claim that women are just too darned mysterious is used to justify violation of consent and boundaries. However, if those same straight men are hit on by other men, they suddenly develop a very clear idea of boundaries and consent.

This suggests to me that the lack of understanding is not just convenient but willful. As Upton Sinclair says, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" The same goes, I think, for horny dudes. Especially horny dudes living in a patriarchal culture where women used to be effectively property of one man or another, and where that patriarchy is still being slowly unwound.

I'm sorry, why do you think how these things are categorized matters in this context? In the workplace all of these things can be inappropriate, and should not be taken lightly.

Catcalling is an inappropriate way to show sexual interest, especially in the workplace. Sexual harassment is a legally defined term in most places, and is not just showing an interest, it is harassment. I hope we can agree that sexual demands for career advancement is not just sexual interest, and neither is rape.

A person's sexual interest is theirs. When they chose to share that interest with another person in the workplace they better carefully gauge their position of power, and the appropriateness of the context. They should also respond in a mature and appropriate way if the interest is not appreciated or reciprocated.

You should also be careful how you throw around the term "hysteria" https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/history-quackery/history-h... as it is a loaded phrase

My understanding is sexual harassment is aggressive, in a way that goes beyond confidence or assertiveness. I suppose it feels like being in a fight in a way. Most fights don't have lasting consequences, most fights occur in environments or cultures where they're almost excused in a way, but if somebody wants to fight you, and even if somebody wants to fight you in an environment that's normally very sober, such as your office, you tend to know it. (And depending on your relative sizes and prior levels of acquaintance, it will make you uneasy).

> I am still not sure how often women simply consider sexual interest to be harassment.

In this setting it's at a minimum incredibly unprofessional, especially between people who don't know each other well and are potentially customer/client or investor/investee.

Imagine doing this stuff in a sales meeting.

Which of catcalling, harassment, sexual demands for career advancement, or rape do you consider acceptable expressions of sexual interest?

"All the hysteria".

You might want to look at the etymology of the word "hysteria", and think about it in this context.

I'm curious why they're not all in the same category, what categorization system are we using?

If we're using a system that puts catcalling in the same bucket as actual rape, that's a little bit of a problem. Catcalling is offensive, tasteless, and disgusting, but it's not the same as forcing someone to have sex with you.

I support laws against catcalling, or enforcing existing harassment laws to include catcalling. But you really lose me when you try to put saying anything--no matter how offensive or even illegal--in the same bucket as doing physical violence to another person.

I think this is where the #metoo movement and other groups that promote women's safety and well-being lose a lot of support from people who would otherwise be in agreement with them. I can go really far supporting laws to protect women from all kinds of awful things. But I can't really stretch reality far enough to say that saying something is the same as raping someone.

I wasn't suggesting catcalling is the same as rape; I was suggesting they're both in the same category. To use an analogy, a Ford Fiesta and a Ferrari FXX aren't going to compete in a race together but they're both cars.

No one is suggesting catcalling is the same as rape; people are suggesting they're both in the same category. To use an analogy, a Ford Fiesta and a Ferrari FXX aren't going to compete in a race together but they're both cars.

To use an analogy, a Ford Fiesta and a Ferrari FXX aren't going to compete in a race together but they're both cars.

To use an analogy, public urination and murder aren't doing to result in the same penalties but they're both crimes.

Sure, but in the context of workplace harassment catcalling and rape would be in the same category, fireable offenses, no?

Sure, but in the context of criminal law, public urination and murder would be in the same category, offenses that can get you arrested, no?

There is an unsavory political/propaganda purpose to putting catcalling and rape in the same category. The eliding of crimes of vastly differing degrees of severity is another warping of law enforcement and the judiciary which totalitarian states have used to oppress individuals. To do the constant work against this, we need to be careful about distinctions.

> There is an unsavory political/propaganda purpose to putting catcalling and rape in the same category

Unless one views combatting unwanted sexual conduct to which people are subjected without consent as an unsavory purposes, no, there isn't.

> The eliding of crimes of vastly differing degrees of severity is another warping of law enforcement and the judiciary which totalitarian states have used to oppress individuals.

True, but irrelevant, for several reasons: first, this isn't a law enforcement issue; second, while the category of discussion overlaps with criminal conduct, it is not a discussion of crime as such, but of a category united by shared features not incliding criminality; third, no one is suggesting equivalency or arguing for ignoring the distinctions between acts within the category while discussing the broad category.

Unless one views combatting unwanted sexual conduct to which people are subjected without consent as an unsavory purposes, no, there isn't.

But if one views the efforts towards combating unwanted sexual conduct as a pretext used by certain people who want power as an end, then it becomes an especially unsavory purpose, no?

True, but irrelevant, for several reasons: first, this isn't a law enforcement issue

The classic strategy of non-governmental authoritarians, since they do not have a monopoly on violence, is to do what they can with the same effect. If you don't have the state monopoly on violence, then dress in uniformed hoods and do violence and vandalism under the cover of anonymous crowds. If you don't have the state function of the judiciary, then use kangaroo courts, "trial in the media," and extralegal means to make accusations with the presumption of guilt. All of the above is very relevant today.

third, no one is suggesting equivalency or arguing for ignoring the distinctions between acts within the category while discussing the broad category.

False. Exactly that is happening in order to turn the tables on current power structures, and to let one group intimidate another.

That's a fine perspective. While I do think catcalling should be illegal, I don't think it should carry the same punishment. Never the less, we're still talking about workspace harassment here.

If we lose such distinctions in the workplace, then there will just be context-specific oppression in the workplace. Livelihood is a major part of life. The spirit of such principles should be in force everywhere of importance in a free society. A free, liberal society accomplishes by convincing and by choice what an oppressive society accomplishes by heavy-handed imposition and coercion. Pay attention to what you're really asking for. It may well be around long enough to be used against you.

I'm well aware of what I'm wishing for. No need to be condenseding. I certainly don't presume you and I would see eye to eye on the society I'd build.

I'm well aware of what I'm wishing for. No need to be condenseding.

What would happen if your tools were used against you?

I certainly don't presume you and I would see eye to eye on the society I'd build.

Do you imagine your faction would be in charge? It certainly sounds like you do. "Revolutions are often initiated by idealists, carried out by fanatics and hijacked by scoundrels." -- Thomas Carlylse

Then I would defend myself, and if I lost, that's fine, it's the cost of progress, even if I spent the rest of my life in jail.

It sounds as if you're already doing things that could land you in jail.

Offers of career advancement in exchange for sexual favors are really really bad, regardless of whether or not someone took them up on it, and regardless of whether they benefited from it later. Not just from the victim's perspective- the person who made the offer of a quid pro quo is just literally a shitty manager or investor and I would question every other aspect of their leadership ability and character. If they can't figure out the blindingly obvious, simple stuff, who knows what other blind spots they have. It's a huge red flag about someone's judgement.

For an investor, their main professional task is to determine if someone is a good risk for investment (possibly with other people's money, who are trusting this person to make good decisions). If their criteria is a quid pro quo for sexual favors rather than whether or not someone's startup is a good place to invest, they're not doing their job. They're doing the opposite of their job.

Likewise, a manager who promises advancement in exchange for sexual favors is advancing someone based on their willingness to sleep with them rather than whether or not the person is a good candidate for advancement. Again, not only is that manager doing a shitty job at being a manager, they're almost doing the worst possible job at being a manager. It's akin to promoting someone based on their personal loyalty to the manager rather than their ability to do the job. It happens all the time but that doesn't make it any better.

TL;DR, even ignoring whether or not someone is a victim in this situation, and not caring about any of the moral or ethical aspects, the harasser has still shown themselves to not be worthy of their job. The most selfish, amoral interpretation of the situation still demands getting rid of the harasser, even if all you care about is business success and are willing to overlook everything else.

> It's akin to promoting someone based on their personal loyalty to the manager rather than their ability to do the job.

Nah, it's way worse. Promoting based on trust can be good, trust is a very important commodity (and hard to come by). In contrast to sexual availability or whatever.

I agree, although I would distinguish between trust and personal loyalty. Trust is collegial, but loyalty is a submissive relationship, at least in the sense that I mean it here. I trust decisions based purely on trust, but I distrust decisions based purely on loyalty, which is unquestioning.

Makes sense, I didn't consider that small but important distinction!

You should ask your wife how she feels about your presumption that women are exaggerating benign sexual interest into sexual harassment, and how you actually think Weinstein's casting couch was a good thing for women.

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