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Comment by Bhilai | Hacker News Reader

I can attest to this. I have three friends who are preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia. Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people with a masters degree who work at top tech companies. They have no hopes to get a permanent residency in US because of long queues. Renewing H1B is a big hassle. Surely its a big change to pick up your life up and move to a different country but its probably for the good considering the current administration's anti-immigrant stand and seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies. This issue has been coming to a head for a while now. My friends at Apple and Microsoft tell me that the immigration woes are picking up heat internally and related questions are making an appearance at internal Q/A with senior management (Tim Cook) so it remains to be seen if tech companies would be able influence any policies.

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For first time ever I think - my Employer (again not an outsourcing firm) has started holding immigration Towh hall meetings for all employees on H1Bs. Its like getting called to principal office and you don't know why.

The fear, uncertainty and doubt is very real among all immigrants afaict.

> preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia.

I know lot of ppl who have been dreaming of this for years but money and opportunity here in US is too good to pass up. 99% of ppl on H1B are not starting companies.

Most ppl just don't have the appetite to slash their income by half. "preparing" doesn't count as a example.

The half-of-salary thing is a bit rich. Tech people unknowingly push up their second or third sigma downside in America and cost of living is hard to compare. In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor. More likely to develop life-long medical conditions. Don't have actuarially balanced government pension (SS accounting is off book, CPP is fully funded). Higher net-debt-to-GDP. Broken political system. It's a pretty long list of nice-to-haves up here.

If you're in the class of programmer than can half your salary by moving to Canada you're still going to be earning at the very least $120k in Toronto, and that's all that shitty. I continue to choose to live in a common wealth (in the old sense of the term) for a reason.

I really like Toronto, but cost of living is high (one of the largest housing bubbles in the world, high taxes), salaries are low and jobs (not only in tech) are scarce. In the States you won't find engineers, doctors, accountants working in the supermarkets/starbucks. Go to any store in Richmond Hill/North York and you will see plenty. There is an ugly truth that people don't like to discuss much, Canada accepts too many professional immigrants relative to the number of available jobs. The proportion of underemployed immigrants is astounding (people who either have to work in unrelated fields or a few levels below their skills). Most of what you mentioned is true, but it's also true that in the States it's much easier to make a living or have a fulfilling career for a professional.

It's not because Canada is accepting a lot of professionals relative to the lesser number of jobs.

Canada's institutions do not accept the immigrant professional's academic credentials, training or their work experience.

A general nurse with 15 years of work experience from India cannot practice the same job duties in Canada due to this restrictions. So they resort to other jobs like home care.

A lot of immigrant nurses in Québec who are from India and Philippines are working in factories now because Québec nurse's association do not recognize their nursing degrees.

The doctors who immigrate drive taxis in Toronto because their credentials are not recognized.

Unlike in the US, for some reason Canadian regulatory bodies have a hard time recognizing credentials of immigrant professionals there by forcing them to take up another job.

A colleague tells me there is this Canadian doctor's and nurses lobby which "protects" the Canadian professional order from immigrant professionals who have come to take up their jobs.

Right now, only IT professionals are accepted as they are. Every other professionals immigrating to Canada should be prepared to re certify their professions or take up additional courses.

Martin you can rent a room in Toronto for $850 with a single housemate. It's no where near that in the valley. What other major costs are there? Healthcare is covered. Dental is <$1k / year. Vision is <$1k / year. Food is way cheaper than SF. Less on accountant fees, less on legal fees, less on anything I can think of, really.

I really don't understand where people get the idea that housing is expensive in Toronto. You can rent a room in a rental home in scarborough or etobicoke for as low as a few hundred dollars. You'd share a house with a dozen people sure, but you typically get a private room at least. The cheapest I've been able to find in SF was $600 for sharing a _room_ with half a dozen people.

> a few hundred dollars

Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going.

If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.

Sure, you can always pay more once you are out of school and can afford something nicer. I used to share a 3 bed apt with two guys near union station, paid $400. Then moved to bachelor at christie, paid $750. Eventually got a detached in a nice neighbourhood w/ a 2k/mo mortgage. Housing was affordable every step of the way.

The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.

3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago.

Even over the past 2 years, rent prices have increased aggressively.

Nowadays, you're lucky to spend just north of $2000/month for a 2 bedroom.

> 3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago.

It was 10+ years ago, sure, but also I had the smallest room (actually a den) so I paid the least. The total rent was 1500 IIRC for what was technically a 2bed+den. I just googled and rent for the same type of apt in that building is going for around $2000 as you said. So if I were to have the same rent splitting arrangement today, I'd probably be paying around $600, maybe $700 for a better room. Which, remember, is around the same as the 3-bunk-bed-room deal-of-the-century in SF.

Also consider my salary back then was CAD 37k. Nowadays a person w/ 1-2 yrs angular experience can land a CAD 100k job fairly easily. My wife sees new grads getting 75k at CGI fresh out of school. The real estate bubble popped too, so it's definitely a buyers market now for those who were eyeing home ownership.

« Renting a room » is not considered decent living for a lot of people.

Are we comparing apples to apples? You can also find a room on peninsula for 1200-1500 with one housemate. A 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto in a neighborhood similar to where I live here in SV is going to be 2800/3000 CAD, I am paying 3K USD now. Car insurance $70 per month for 2 cars here, I used to pay $380 per month in Canada. My PGE bill is $50-70, in Toronto hydro/gas are going to be at least twice that. My brother paid $400 a month in heating costs last winter (4 year old insulated house). How about $10 beers, $30 entrees in restaurants (not fancy, just regular ones), more expensive gas, activities for kids. It all adds up. And you're missing the point, it's not that prices are high in absolute terms, but relative to salaries (which are very low). i'd be happy to come back to be close to my family, but I can't afford to take a 50%+ pay cut.

Dude I just got into a new place at Dovercourt and Dundas. I'm on the second floor of desirable house paying $850 CAD ($650 USD).

Yes you can spend $3k CAD on a shiny new two-bedroom midrise condo if you want to, but that's the exception. Most people live in places that cost between $600 to $1200 per person. Max $2k ($1.5k USD) if you live alone.

Nobody I know is paying $400 in heating. That's northern Ontario electric baseboard heating rates. My total electricity bill for all of 2016 was $400.

Beer is not $10. It is $7. Entrees are $14 ($11 USD), not $30.

You're missing my point. I was making $200k+ at 27 in 2012. You can make money here. It's not SV high, true, but it is high enough. There are other things that matter than raw salary.

OK, so 2K for a single person if living along. I guess for a family of 3, you'd need to up that budget by at least 500. My brother is a real estate agent who does a lot of rentals downtown and midtown. He says you'd need to budget around 4.20CAD per sq.ft. It can go higher depending on the layout and views. Rents have risen significantly in the last couple of years. We can back and forth about beer/food costs, I'd lived in Toronto for 8 years (North York - 3 years, Downtown - St.George/Bloor - 4 years and 1 year on Eglington/Younge so I know what I talking about). Can you name 3 companies in Toronto that pay 200K+ in real money (salary, bonus, stock that you can actually sell)? My friends are telling me 110-115K is a VERY decent salary, maybe they are just working for wrong companies.

> You're missing my point. I was making $200k+ at 27 in 2012.

In Toronto? I hope you don't mind my asking: doing what?

Sorry for the delay, I was Chief Data Scientist at a really hot startup.

Is that total comp or salary? Any tips for negotiating for above-market compensation?

All of the problems that you mention pretty easily solved by having money. And in the US, programmers are much more capable of getting that money in the first place.

For example, the chance of getting violently harmed, is solved by living in a good neighborhood.

The problem of healthcare is solved by paying for good health insurance. The issue of retirement is solved by putting lots of your money into a retirement account.

Life really is quite amazing for people in the upper 10%, in america. And programmers easily fall into that category.

> In America you're more likely to get violently harmed

As far as I can tell this is not really true. There are small areas in the US with extreme violence and it skews the overall statistics.

> More likely to become truly poor

Again I’m not sure this is true for a programmer - every year I save 2-3 years worth of living costs.

> earning at the very least $120k in Toronto

What is the cost of a decent 3-4 bedroom house in Toronto fairly close to work?

If it’s anything like Vancouver then $120k is not enough.

>In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor.

all these only apply to lower income ppl in US not to ppl on h1b, they can simply move back to higher middle class in India if things go wrong.

I can't tell if this comment is ironic or not. But I'll bite anyway.

The choice is between H1B in Canada vs H1B in US. Presumably permanent residency is the plan, so "simply moving back to India" isn't the plan if things go wrong 5 years later.

It's hard to ignore the trolls. The phrase "simply move back" is always a clear flag that someone has no idea what they're talking about.

Ok man. whatever. I know tons of ppl who moved back, to start their own business, to take care of aging parents, to retire, for their kids schooling. It is really a viable option if you become "truly poor" in USA.

Sure, but its also a big sacrifice that is a larger sacrifice than, say, moving to another state. Sure, people do it, but it's expensive, time consuming, disruptive, and stressful. And there are additional financial implications such as currency exchange and repaying debts (if you care about your old credit rating) in a different currency, along with transmitting money across borders. Not everyone can just cash out debts.

So yeah, it's possible, but it is no walk in the park.

You can move back to India even if you take up US/Canadian citizenship on your PIO card.

You mean if a H-1B immigrant's kid gets shot fatally in the next school shooting or a spouse is killed in a bar, "simply move back to India"? or do bullets fly only towards lower income people?

>"Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people..."

That's a pretty broad brush you're smearing with there, amigo.

I wish so badly I could trade places, as a conservative man stuck in a 'progressive' country with lower wages. Give me a great salary and Blumpffss 'regressive' US any day.

I mean...why can't you?

I'm not the person you replied to but keep in mind that a lot of people talk about wanting to live in another country but never get around to actually doing anything about it.

It doesn't matter what country you are currently in there will be people who want to live somewhere else. Some will get it done but most won't take any steps towards making it happen.

The same reason not every "I'm totally moving to canada/australia/new zealand/europe" liberal in the US can do so. Immigration laws.

Unfortunately for you, your conservative peers in the US don't want foreigners like you to immigrate.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's totally on point. And there's a subtle point too; conservatism reduces opportunity and there's not much evidence that American conservative values have anything to do with good American wages. In fact, on a state by state basis, the opposite is true.

I think one angle the parent may have intended is that immigration increases labour supply and thus depresses wages. This argument ignores the fact that immigration generally grows an economy and in many countries it's a critical driver. This goes doubly for highly skilled immigration - particularly in the tech industry. I've worked with extremely talented folks who'd come to the US from all over the world, raising the bar at the world's top tech companies. Anyone who's worked in these companies will tell you that it's the quality bar that's the biggest constraint on hiring. SV is a concentrator of technical talent - one of the reasons the ecosystem works so well (the other is access to capital).

Beyond that, I'd find it surprising that progressive policy should depress wages - conservative economic stance typically weighs in favour of Capital.

The ultimate irony of the parent post is that the values he strongly identifies with are those that thwart his dearest wish. Emblematic of the human condition?

I'm not even sure immigration laws have much to do with it. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of people never get as far as finding out what the other country's immigration laws are.

I imagine people are vaguely aware of the degree of difficulty for different countries, but your point stands that most people with a reasonable standard of living prefer to avoid the upheaval of emigrating.

Why don’t they get an E2 visa which is designed for immigration for those with high skills and advanced degrees?

An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.

Expecting permanent residency from a non-immigrant visa is no different than expecting a French tourist visa to lead to residency.

E2 visas are limited to few, mostly European countries. The people referred to in the article are from India. Also, China is backlogged in the green card queue so it's useless for them too. I don't think E2 is an immigrant visa either, anyway E2 is an investor visa, rather than founders.

>An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.

It does make sense, because currently the quota is country based. So if you're from a small country, say Cambodia, and have an advanced degee, you can get on a H1B and get a green card in about 7 months, whether 'intended' or not.

H1b is a dual intent visa. Which means a person coming to theUS on a H1b visa can apply for green card.

If you think it makes sense for a person born in India to wait for 150 years while paying taxes etc, and a person born in a different country waits for 7 months, we’ll, it’s clear what your POV is.

E2 Treaty Investors visa is nonimmigrant and requires substantial capital. Source: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...

So not sure what your comment implies.

The EB-2 (if that's what you were referring to) is one of the "exceptional ability" visas. The requirements are quite difficult to meet for a regular professional software engineer.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

E2 visa is employment-based, which means the applicant needs to be employed by the time they applies (usually through OPT or H1B).

So it's not an "either-or" situation.

Sorry, I meant EB-2 insteand of E2.

> was never intended as a path to a green card

Not true. Congress clearly intended this back in 2000 when it passed AC21, and the government has also recognized this through regulation.

Why is this downvoted? Was anything in or untrue? H visas are temporary, non-immigrant visas.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme...

It's downvoted because you, like your profile says, are "opinionated, inconsistent, irrelevant, irreverent and incontrovertible", and regardless of the number of times you are told that you are wrong and that H1Bs are dual-intent visas, keep parroting the same trash in every immigration related thread. Please quit proliferating nonsense untruths.

And here, for future reference, because short of a citation of the law, and probably even then, you won't quit spreading junk knowledge:

Better reference: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1184

b) Presumption of status; written waiver Every alien (other than a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (L) or (V) of section 1101(a)(15) of this title, and other than a nonimmigrant described in any provision of section 1101(a)(15)(H)(i) of this title except subclause (b1) of such section) shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for a visa, and the immigration officers, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status under section 1101(a)(15) of this title.

Without getting in the history of the parent poster, he's not wrong. H1B is a temporary (non-immigrant) visa which allows dual intent. Yes, most people on dual intent visas eventually petition for a green card but I think it's unfair to qualify his post as "junk knowledge". Same thing with L-1A and O-1.

Source : https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-nonimm...

It is junk knowledge to claim that something was never intended as a path to a green card.

Congress clearly intended this it back in 2000, when it passed Public Law 106-313 ("American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act"), which allowed H-1B extensions beyond 6 years for those who are waiting for green cards. If Congress didn't think the H-1B visa should be a path to a green card, why would they pass that bill?

Also the government has recognized it many times through regulation. For example, look at the number of times this regulation talks about a "path": https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/11/18/2016-27...

This is false. H1B holders pay into Social Security and Medicare, but are not allowed access to SS and Medicare benefits, precisely because it's a dual intent visa with the intention of immigration.

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