In addition, Durham, in particular, is a melting pot of Northerners and Southerners. This has lead to some wonderful conversations where regional and cultural expectations were questioned.
Lastly, there are several startups here that are actively recruiting the best people away from the groupthink and costs that are currently dominating the bay area.
I lived in this part of NC for 13 years and am happy to answer questions.
One thing I really like about this area is that for a moderately sized urban area, there is a lot of nice outdoor "green space" with trails for hiking, running, and biking. Yes, if you're into MTB you're basically limited to just XC here, as we don't have the elevation change for true DH riding... but again, there are mountains about 3.5-5 hours away and you can get your fix of DH stuff there with a day-trip if needed.
It's also nice having nice places for water sports / water based recreation... you've got Jordan Lake, Falls Lake, Lake Crabtree (just don't eat the fish...), Harris Lake, University Lake, Cane Creek Reservoir, and the like.
And as others have pointed out, there are plenty of educated people here to contribute to the intellectual scene. Obviously there are the folks at Duke, UNC, and NCSU, but don't underestimate the impact of the smaller, lesser-known colleges and universities in the area either. Take NC Central, for example. They're a small HBCU located in central Durham, and have a VERY highly regarded law school for such a small school. I routinely meet people from all over the country who come here to attend NCCU Law. And you also have Shaw, Peace, Meredith, Campbell, St. Augustines, as well as Wake Tech and Durham Tech, all contributing to the base of educated people in the area.
I guess it depends on what you are looking for though. For my tastes, I love parking off of Reedy Creek Road behind LCCP, and being able to ride Crabtree (fast, "flow" trails), 286 (slightly more technical than the crab), Rocky Road (very technical and challenging), Sludge (technical in spots), and then go grind out some training miles on the gravel roads in Umstead.
That said, I'm sure there are places with even more variety. But I've never suffered from a shortage of places to ride here. :-)
This sentence really makes me rethink how much time some people routinely spend on the road. I live in Santa Monica where's it's minutes away from beaches and about half an hour away from mountains. If I just want to go there to relax, I don't want to have to spend hours just getting there.
Also, as someone from NC, I'll go ahead an say while I'm a big fan of the dramatic scenery of the West, the coastline and beaches of NC have their own special charm, not to mention are cleaner. Only problem is, with sea level rise, the Outer Banks probably won't exit in a couple decades.
That said, it's not the case that every 3rd person you meet is a KKK member, raging homophobe, or conservative snake-handling fundamentalist who refuses to send their kids to the doctor, or any of those other stereotypes. Those people exist, but even in the rural areas they aren't necessarily ubiquitous - although this will obviously vary from region to region, town to town, and I haven't lived in every part of NC, so there are probably some spots that are especially bad that I don't know about.
But anyway, the conversation about was about living in the Triangle area around Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, and this region seems to be in pretty good shape as far as tolerance, diversity, etc.
Born and raised in rural North Carolina. The racism and bigotry and religious zealotry is very prevalent there. Durham, Raleigh, and Charlotte are all nice cities. However, you should really stick to those areas if you're not wanting to deal with any trouble.
Their analysis checks out with my memory of recent events, with IL, WI, VA, and MO ranking very highly racist.
City lab article expounds on it here and has a nice graphic: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/02/the-role-of-structura...
Housing is also surprisingly expensive in the nicer parts of town given the necessity for a car. With that said, it's a great option if you're comfortable with the opportunities here and want to settle.
10 years ago new CS grads were getting 60k/yr and moving up quickly. Now that I often hire for the area, it's closer to 70k in my experience. Yes, you can move to SFO and make 90k, or more? But you have to adjust drastically for cost of living. Perhaps you get better RSUs and free lunch?
Once you get more senior salaries the salaries are even more competitive. The only thing that doesn't seem popular is huge pile of RSUs that you'd get working for one of the SFO companies.
It’s definutely worth it to chase the money out of undergrad IMHO.
I looked on Glassdoor not too long ago for AI/ML and there were probably 20-30 postings.
I think the trick is to pick any place with a college (and there are tons in NC) and the weather or lifestyle you prefer. I think Asheville and Boone are amazing for people who love mountains and dont mind colder weather for less humidity, while Greensboro and Winston would give you a lot of bang for your buck with their historic vibe and nearness to other regional hubs, and then there's even Carolina beach near Wilmington for beach fans, which is at least cheaper than some other beaches.
Wilmington is a fun place in many ways. I grew up nearby (Holden Beach) and went to UNC-W and worked in Wilmington for many years. The area has a lot going for it, but in the end, I left for the Triangle region back in 2000 just because there were more business/career opportunities in the Triangle.
I think the tech scene in Wilmington has improved over the last 7 or 8 years, but at least up through 2000 (when I left) it was kind of a backwater from a tech standpoint. Programming jobs were few and far between and there weren't all the user groups and tech events and things you get here in the Triangle.
Anyway, I'd encourage anybody considering Wilmington to really research the job scene and see what's going on in their industry there, before committing.
I've lived in the Triangle for 15 years now, I would recommend you come after we have a light rail.
Lisbon and Porto are super popular with ["digital nomad"] remote workers who work for international companies so earn in USD but spend [much less] in Euros for a superb lifestyle.
There's a reason @paddycosgrave moved Web Summit to Lisbon. It's one of the cheapest cities in Europe and [unlike Barcelona] everyone speaks English. There is a good "tech scene" and a fantastic work-life-balance; surf, great food & warm/welcoming people.
A few things to consider that many people over-look: + Socio-Economic and Political stability. + General safety/security and crime levels. + Sanitation and healthcare availability/cost. + Availability/cost of healthy [organic/unprocessed] food. + Lifestyle to actually live in the place: is it "cheap" but a nightmare to live there? + Contract-law for short-term apartment/room rentals.
Portugal will exceed your expectations on all of these.
Portugal is very welcoming to US citizens, you won't have any "visa issues" the way you will in many of the [superficially] "cheaper" Asian countries.
If you want your budget to stretch much further, consider Braga. The cost of living is less than a third of SF, internet is fast and you get most of the benefits of Porto & Lisbon (or can reach those cities with a short train journey).
Note: I am [slightly] "biased", my Wife and I have recently "escaped" from London [after working there in tech for 10 years] and we are busy setting up a Co-living/Co-working House in Braga: https://github.com/dwyl/home We will be opening at the end of this month and our target cost per month [1Gbps Internet, all bills, cleaning & gym included] is $300 (USD).
We chose Braga because it has all the "ingredients" for an awesome place for tech/creative people to escape the bigger cities and focus on their work while still having access to all the amenities great healthcare, superb organic/vegan food and good libraries/meetups/etc.
Nevertheless - my point was, you’re living my dream and I’ll definitely give a visit when my life allows for a Portugal trip. Never been yet.
[Sadly] while AirBnB has made it easier for "tourists" to visit the cities it has accelerated the [ridiculous] house-price inflation, especially in short-term apartment/room rentals often pricing "locals" out of the market completely.
Coimbra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coimbra is a lovely city. It was second on our list precisely for the "intellectual vibe" (as you say).
What "swayed" our decision toward Braga was:
+ Much Closer to the Porto international airport via Bus, Train or Uber/Taxi. So getting to London/Paris/Frankfurt/etc. is a lot easier.
+ More existing companies both tech and traditional e.g: Bosch & Primavera. So the MeetUps are more "practical".
+ Lower latency and generally faster Internet.
Our plan in Braga is to "recover" abandoned buildings (which are currently empty/unused) and renovate them into amazing places to live & work for "location independent creative/technology professionals".
We are morally against Landlords/investors who are simply buying up the stock of available "rental" property and jacking up the prices so locals can no longer afford them.
It's 50mins train and 15mins uber, from Coimbra to OPO.
For reference, the car journey time at the 120kph highway speed limit between OPO and Coimbra is 125 mins see: https://goo.gl/maps/xosQureNf3x
By comparison the journey time (by car) between Braga and OPO is 39 mins i.e. less than half. see: https://goo.gl/maps/bN8GFy2UJoq
Trust me, we have done our homework on this. This was a major deciding factor. We still have a company in London and we need to go there frequently for in-person client meetings. Otherwise Coimbra would have been a no-brainer.
Our "sister company" has just opened a Student Residence in Coimbra: https://www.studentville.pt/en/cidades/coimbra We would have benefitted hugely from being there.
Much love to our Coimbra friends! :-)
This is not about paying taxes, it's when those taxes are essentially wasted by the giant administrative leeches that runs countries like Portugal.
Long story short: run for the hills, don't come to Belgium.
>Long story short: it's one of the best countries in the world to live in, by almost any metric.
Yeah, I'd take that deal.
Portugal has followed the "Nordics" model when it comes to taxes; income is taxed higher but services (healthcare, schools, roads and other infrastructure] is much better than in the US [or most of the rest of the world for that matter!].
The much cheaper lifestyle in Portugal more than makes up for the higher taxes.
I'm not a "tax adviser" and HN is not the place for that "tax efficiency" advice. But you should consider setting up a Ltd Company and paying yourself/co-founders [Tax Free] dividends.
I would [highly] recommend watching "Startup Legal Mechanics" [YCombinator Startup School]: https://youtu.be/BTShgZxiNV8
tldr; start a company [separate legal entity].
I'm not a tax expert but I don't think you can do it. Dividends are not tax free. You have to pay 28%(IRS) + ~20% (IRC) so in the end you pay more than a regular freelancer (for salaries below €80K).
edit: except if you are a non-habitual resident..
So maybe if you set up your company in another tax friendly country, you would be able to pay your corporate tax and taxes on your dividends there.
[1]: http://www.newco.pro/blog/en/portugal-or-spain-two-tax-regim...
https://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-r...
If I can just ignore them it seems to read better but it's hard work to do so, but maybe that's just me :)
Consider three sentences which could carry very different meanings:
Polite decline: "No, thank you."
Firm decline: "No, thank you."
Scolding decline: "No, thank you."
Perhaps not the best examples, but if italics helps reduce ambiguity and preserve more subtlety, I'm for it.
I have never really seen anyone in the states use italicization with the "No, thank you" example. Its better to just use emojis instead to get the same message across. Italicization used this way is sometimes treated as sarcasm or passive aggressiveness. Using italicization this way more excessively eventually goes to things like * <bashes away at keyboard> * or writing actions in written form. Those aren't subtle, but they are really awkward to read.
I'm living a bit north, Galicia, and I still think that Braga is one of the most undervalued cities in Portugal, it's kinda cute, warn, has a lovely downtown. You made an awesome decision. :-)
It's easy (currently) for those of us in the UK, but from April, or for people from outside the UK, countries just haven't really caught up to the remote working situation.
I will just add my suggestion of a another city to the mix: Aveiro. Small yet not too small, cheap, a short hop from Porto, 2hrs away from Lisbon, with trains and good highways, a very tech oriented university, excellent food, close by the sea and a huge lagoon good for all kinds of watersports.
I work for an US based company from here, and I used to live in Lisbon for 10+ years. Love Lisbon, but my quality of life here in Aveiro is so much better.
Do you have any stats proving that? Just asked a portuguese friend living in Barcelona and said that is a quite bold statement.
I'm sure it's just a slip of tongue but never ever say things like that in Portugal...
I have searched but haven't found anything concrete ... the best data available is: https://www.ef.edu.pt/epi/regions/europe/portugal
in lieu of stats, I'll give you the logic [facts] instead: English as a Second Language (lessons) begins in the 5th grade in Portugal. It's compulsory for all people and generally high quality.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Portugal
Students cannot graduate from High school without proficiency in English. So the system is setup to ensure that the next generation [the one you will be interacting with in most situations] is fluent in English.
I know from first-hand experience of going to a "government" school and being taught by a fantastic teacher who studied at Cambridge, UK. The English lessons are predominantly "mechanical" i.e. grammar/vocabulary and sentence structure. But the fact that all television is sub-titled, not dubbed, means that all popular CSI/Fox shows are in English so the general population learn English "in use" much more effectively than in Spain, Germany or France.
All "Top Tier" STEM Universities are taught in English in order to help attract foreign students and help graduates get jobs abroad. This is a "double-edged sward" that has resulted in considerable "brain drain" to other countries. But we are seeing many Portuguese educated people who have worked abroad returning to start their own companies now which is really promising!
In Spain, many people speak English, however - and this is not meant to cause a "flame war" - since all television/media is "translated" [dubbed] people don't practice listening to English nearly as much, so the level of spoken english in the general population [outside of tech] is lower. There's a reason for the "Manuel from Barcelona" Fawlty Towers sketch/stereotype: https://youtu.be/s6EaoPMANQM
I love Spain and Barça [especially] is lovely! I worked there [as a waiter!] for 3 summers as a teenager. Loved it! But again, from first-hand experience, the level of English was much lower than in Portugal. This worked out well for me, because it forced me to learn Spanish. ;-)
The "stats" comparing Spain and Portugal: https://www.ef.edu.pt/epi/compare/regions/pt/es/
Mucho amor a todos los amigos en Barçelona!
It's true, however, that the fact that every TV show is completely dubbed makes it harder for us to develop our speaking (our listening doesn't seem to be so affected for some reason).
When you finish college you're only supposed to have a B2 English level. I don't know about it, but I wouldn't be surprised to know it's a fairly low standard for a European country.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
Same in Czechia. English has been mandatory for almost two decades now, and yet somehow nobody seems to be able to speak it. Grocery store clerks, waiters, even policemen, unless you are in a touristy area, and often not even there, you are basically out of luck.
On the other hand, I'm sure having everything dubbed is a boon to foreigners trying to master Czech. All three of them.
Caveats:
- If you intend to work within Academia, you may occasionally have to deal with fairly incompetent professors. It depends on the research unit and area, but there tends to be a certain amount of people who got full tenure in the past by connections and self-publications only. Needless to say that there are also some very good people. For example, at our institute about 50% are foreigners with excellent publications in English.
- Rents have skyrocketed during the past years in all beautiful areas of Lisbon. It's still not even comparable to SF, of course, but you need to calculate around 800 for a decent 2 room apartment. Housing prices have also gone up, but if you have the money it would be a safe investment - they'll continue to rise for quite a while. (Is there any major capital where they don't rise?)
- Social hierarchies and "respect" (in the sense of brown-nosing) are generally more important than in the north of Europe. Portuguese are very friendly towards foreigners, but they can be rather unfriendly among themselves. It's a kind of social pressure and artificial politeness/respect that can be very unappealing in the long run. You can never say straightforward to your boss what you think, no matter how right you are. Critique always needs to be very indirect.
I cannot say anything about the startup scene, because I'm not familiar with it. I suppose it's generally harder to obtain VC funding or bank credits than in the US. Starting a company is very easy, though, for a small company it suffices to hire a freelance account. IRS is also outstanding and can be done online within 5 minutes. The only downside is that as a foreigner you don't get a citizen card, which means that you have to go to local authorities in person instead of doing it online, too. Traditionally, Lisboagas (for natural gas delivery) and the Social Security authority suck, every other authority or company I've dealt with in the past 10 years was super-friendly and professional.
Overall, I can totally recommend Lisbon for anyone who wants high quality of living combined with low costs of living. I have no plans of ever moving away again and instead plan to open my own little software company in case my postdoc funding ever dries out - so far it's still going well in Academia though.
Athens.
I need to leave that country for my own sanity and I'm currently on the lookout for a new one to move to. All this talk about portugal is very tempting :)
If they are cool with remote working why not hire much cheaper remote workers at eastern European rates.
Can you elaborate on this? Wouldn't a U.S citizen still be limited to only 90 days in the Shengen zone every 180 days? Or is there some type of freelance visa?
i also heard that if you buy a 600k usd house in portugal, you could register for eu citizenship, please someone confirm.
Because the tax payers are paying €110m for it? http://www.thejournal.ie/lisbon-web-summit-new-ten-year-deal...
Feels like it's been a "win-win" for everyone (except perhaps the "locals" who have no interest in tourism/tech and have been priced out of their rental accommodation by "AirBnB Landlords"... it's the SF apartment price squeeze all over)
If I were to guess the reason for the selection of Lisbon, it would be this: the Web Summit organising team have to spend much of the year in the city where the event is held. They chose a city they want to be in for their own reasons. e.g: Weather/Climate, Food, Culture, Night Life, Scenery (lots of city parks, cycle/pedestrian areas), Architecture, Surf/Sailing, good International Schools (for those who have children) ... Mostly still "cheap" for visitors.
There's a good reason why people say that Lisbon is like SF but with better weather and more affordable.
I’m a freelance software developer and can happily work out here even on a plot of land which has no power/net connection. The 3G/4G is great, and everything easily runs of a single solar panel.
This isn’t my long term plan, but does me well when I come out here for a few weeks at a time. Long term there’ll be a house etc.
If there was a coworking space in Covilha / Castelo Branco I’d be very keen.
Otherwise I may start a little coders retreat or some such :-)
But this reminds me I haven’t posted for ages!
Also education is not very convincing (considering op might want a family). Universities in Portugal are not that great nor renowned. Many qualified young people go work abroad by lack of local opportunities. I've also heard that healthcare is messy if you can't pay. It doesn't sound like a healthy country to me.
I guess Portugal is good enough if you just want sun, decent food, cheap QoL and good internet, but I wouldn't consider it a thriving intellectual place by any means. But maybe in OP's words, good intellect = finding a sufficient concentration of other engineers. Then it might be enough.
I disagree. Universities are not the problem. General school is. As a rule of thumb, public universities are better than private ones and the opposite on general school.
Also can't think of any portugese scientist, or portugese based lab renowned for anything in biology or computer science.
Fernando Pereira comes to mind: he made significant contributions to the early development of logic programming (e.g. C-Prolog) and natural language processing, as well as other AI research.
Lisbon is quite good in all of the above since it is well placed on the European circuit for performing arts and has plenty of smallish but very high quality museums. As a music student there I got to hear all of the greats and frankly I got to attend relatively more high-quality concerts there than what I get around to living in Paris, since in Lisbon I didn't have to book everything 6 months in advance. (I'm not complaining about Paris, it's awesome.)
Braga on the other hand has a lot less cultural activity as is normal for a small city. However, it does have an incredibly rich history, plenty of ancient monuments (mostly churches) and is a 45-minute drive from Porto.
If you're talking about the bubbling native culture that you can find in cities like London or New York, than no, Portugal isn't the hottest place. But the SV isn't either.
Really? I live in a developing country middle of the Pacific Ocean and I regularly buy from Amazon with no issues. How come Portugal doesn't have Amazon?
I buy things from Amazon.de to Finland very often - often no extra cost for shipping and good prices. Also EUR prices without extra taxes for me.
So while Finland does not have "Amazon" (amazon.fi is a redirect to amazon.de) - I can still buy things from there very easily.
Meanwhile as others have said, we get our deliveries from UK amazon here in less than a week. It's not "Prime" or "Same Day Delivery", sure, but we can be patient for a few days and it just means we don't buy crap on impulse.
Our government is learning from China and Cuba: we have 2 systems, one for locals (ultra-socialist) and another for foreigners (ultra-liberal).
Almsot 200 EUR a month on dental seems outrageously expensive.
Getting a simple figure on the prices is difficult but it seems like the going-rate is appox £16-21 pm (lets say 20-30 EUR): https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/insurance/dental-insurance...
The amount I have to decalre to the tax man for the "benefit in kind" value my health insurance through work (which is private health & dental for me, my spouse, and all dependants - includes private GP appointments, physio etc etc) is about £1600 for the entire year, or £~135/month or ~155EUR/month. I apprecaite that is just from my P11D form [1], but there are some other sources that are in the same ballpark: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/insurance/cheap-health-ins...
You would be better off saying ok put the benefit into my pension instead.
I might have been able to get the same treatment on the NHS (this was for a running injury, so not a life-critical illness), but the doctors, MRI, and two consultants visits were done on consecutive days - i.e. within a working week I went from "ow my knee hurts" on a Monday morning to having seen a doctor, a consultant, getting an MRI, and then seeing the consultant again who prescribed a course of physiothearapy by Thursday afternoon (the physio was also booked the same day).
With the NHS it probably would have taken two or three days to call at precisely 08:30:00 to get an appointment before they book out, then I'd be waiting minimum two weeks before I even went to that first GP appointment, and I am sure their response would have been "stop running and see if it gets better in 3 months - come back if it hasn't. NEXT." (based on experience)
Seems like a good deal to me.
I certainly got no value from BUPA when I had major transplant operation - just a £500 tax bill.
* Cost of living for a good quality of life still being relatively high or rising, especially in Lisbon and other tourist/expat areas. And a second tier city in Portugal is much less of a clear choice since that is comparable to a lot more places.
* The tax system being very complicated. One can always argue about how much tax to pay, but few people want a complicated tax system, especially not as a foreigner. (And is usually an indication that other systems are complicated as well).
* The tech scene not really happening. Despite the usual "next Silicon Valley" it doesn't really stand out from anywhere else as far as I can tell.
There might certainly be things I don't see, but at least initially it doesn't seem like Portugal rise above the competition to the extent that you wouldn't have to consider quite a few other options.
* highly educated
Universities are not very good.
* and english speaking
Don't they speak Portuguese?
*youth and a will to conquer the world.
Unlikely. And Silicon Valley is not about guys with laptops creating some websites. It is all about high tech, top universities, supply chains and synergy effects. You may be able to to a technology heavy start-up in the UK, Germany, China, Japan, Korea but in Portugal this is difficult. You lack the industrial supply chain of customized high tech products. Just working on your laptop you can also do in Kenya (which actually is quite innovative in IT).
Portugal is a nice place. Nice people. But too little high tech, too much debt, demography problems etc.
" destruction created by more than 50 years of fascist dictatorship." Not aware how much damage this created. The Portuguese empire was not important before the dictatorship anymore, so not sure how much time you really lost.
But PT has many good things. I wish RE was cheaper in Lisbon and I would buy immediately.
As I've said in another comment, IRS is literally filling out an online app for 5 minutes - and all relevant entries are already pre-filled. It's very easy and simple.
As for companies, my girlfriend works at a company run by two Germans and they basically hire an accountant to do the paperwork every year. It's pretty cheap. For a larger company, you'd have to hire a local to do the accounting, though.
Maybe I'm missing something because I don't run my own company, bear in mind that hiring freelancers is cheap here.
Why is it better?
Purportedly they can fine you tens of thousands of euros for tiny honest mistakes even if you don't owe one cent of tax (Modelo 720).
If you have questions drop me a line.
What about people from other part of the world? Asking since you live there. Any resource you would recommend to have a general idea?
Portugal is one of the most welcoming countries to people of all nations. You will never be unwelcome here regardless of where you are from. There are communities of people from the Middle East, Nordics, Indian Sub-continent, China, Africa (South America, obvs) and if you go out to the "trendy" parts of town and listen to the range/variety of accents it's every bit as "cosmopolitan" as London's Shoreditch/Soho! Just book a trip and see for yourself! ;-)
> Just book a trip and see for yourself! ;-)
Yeah, it's been pending since college. My Euro Trip. Now I can't even blame affordability :)
International cities, thriving technology hubs, connected airports, visa issues really are not a big issue. We have a completely international team based in our Spain office.
The wanton incompetence of the RDS and Dublin's general inability to get anything done, not to mention mediocre transit and eye-wateringly expensive accommodation?
"visa issues"? Portgual is Schengen. You need a residence visa if you want to live there. Possibly but far from trivial. On the other hand, if you want to buy real estate anyway and can cough up 500k you can go the golden visa route.
You may be too late for Lisbon. Also, Overtourism becomes a problem.
Braga sounds interesting. Had not time to go there. Wanted to check out rafting. Also, summers may be milder.
If you don't need a golden visa, you can buy a very decent flat in the outskirts (within 30 mins - 1 hour commute) for less than half of that.
I was only in Lisbon for 4 days (loved it!), but did run into some off-hand issues with language barriers. Cab/uber drivers in particular seemed to know little to zero English.
With that being said, once we got a rental car I greatly appreciated the cutthroat driving style of the Portuguese - damn they are good drivers.
Sure the weather is the best I've ever experienced on earth, the food is great, and the cost of living is low. But on the other hand you have an ecosystem that is nothing to write home about, culturally it's good but not great like London or NYC, academia is lackluster (no world-class universities in any subject, bar 1 MBA), not very international, not a whole lot going on in general.
Portugal is a great place to come on holiday, go surfing, go sailing, and retire. It's not an intellectually stimulating place, and the general level of competence in everything from local government to enterprise management is extremely frustrating.
I would say to OP that usually if a place is interesting, it won't be cheap as there is more demand for it. Maybe look at Oxford, UK, Bristol, UK, Edinburgh, UK, or Rotterdam, NL as secondary cities with still enough going on. Apparently Bordeaux is nice but I have never been so can't say.
You do have a point there, but I think what skews this picture somewhat is language barriers. Everyone learns English in school and English is the language of academia, so all else being equal, the demand for English speaking locations is bound to be greater than for other destinations.
Could you elaborate on this? Are there options that exist that Non-Portuguese tech workers can look into? Something like a freelance visa or a start up visa? Do such things exist? Cheers
Went through rabbit hole.
So much love ! ! !
(beautiful home)
Healthcare starts at ~$130/mo if you manage to not pay for the retirement fund scam (rarely possible), goes up to like $350/mo if you run your own company (not 100% sure, I can thankfully avoid it). The income tax is 19%.
Any starting point?
And about the politics... Only people that want to play into 'politics' game really cares what's happening here - other people just don't care and live happily.
Caring about politics is a total waste of time and energy - in my opinion it's just better to turn these resources into e.g. earning more money than e.g. thinking how much politicians are "stealing" it from us - I think that's the main reason why people are so angry these days and live unhappy lifes
If you are moving to another country, it becomes even more important. Not only can the politics affect your life greatly (being gay might be illegal, for example, with harsh punishments), but in many places, you won't have a say in said politics. You can rally folks together, but most places won't let you vote.
Even if the laws at the present time fit your lifestyle, the political trends might be geared towards changing this. It really pays to pay attention to such things. Politics and culture are important to pay attention to, especially when moving to another country.
In reality there is nothing to be afraid, Poland is one of the safest countries in the World (there are multiple resources about that), people are traditionally hospitable, in bigger cities like Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw there is pretty a lot of people from many Western Europe countries, there are also a lot of (about 1 million) refugees and emigrants from Ukraine, emigrants from Belarus, quite big Vietnamese community. So far everyone live in peace together.
A fun fact - my daughter goes to a regular primary public school and in her class there is a boy from India, a boy from western Ukraine, a girl from Ukraine and a girl from Belarus and. They were assimilated very quickly, without particular teachers assistance (public school, so teachers don't have time for anything but teaching); boys soaked into the group immediately, as running around together and screaming plus playing soccer does not require much language skills.
I think that if you consider seriously moving/traveling to country X, relaying on media does not make much sense, as they are chasing something that would make a "news". So, surely, there are people in Poland who bite dogs, yet the reality is that, typically, dogs are biting people.
Luckily, these days it is easy to contact foreigners living in Poland (Facebook groups, native language speakers portals, etc.), so, just ask someone who lives here.
Please don't mix labor migrants (99.99+% of the number you indicated) with refugees.
According to the fresh official Foreigners Office report[0], there were 7.5k applications and around 400(sic!) positive decisions for the "refugee" or "protection" status from the Ukrainian citizens in the last 15(!) years.
[0] https://udsc.gov.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/UKRAINA-01.09...
Here's your litmus test: If you read a news story and it invokes some emotional state within you, immediately preempt that and use your head. Is it possible they could be exaggerating, or straight up lying? What are their motivations and biases? Are there corroborating "ground" reports from individuals with different biases?
Seriously though, Poland is one of the safest place to live in right now, especially if you're a foreigner. Media's portrayal of current political situation in Poland is HUGELY exaggerated.
[1]: http://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-w... [2]: https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2018/10/06/church-in-po...
I wouldn't try that in a backyard alley in a "working class" part of the city, though, especially if they are male. Most of the time it would be OK, but there's a real risk of some idiot being "insulted" by that and reacting stupidly.
I've talked on the internet with a transgender girl that moved from USA to Poland for some time, she had family there, and after a few months she moved out, couldn't handle the shit her family gave her and the looks. So yeah, it's not pretty. Violence wasn't a problem apparently.
Of course if you ask a local if they know someone who got beat up for their identity (be it nationality, language, race or gender), they will usually respond affirmatively... as would quite a lot people in the West. Just don't mess with drunk idiots and you should be fine. Also, based on my observations, there's way less harassment towards women here than in the Bay Area, for some reason.
Adjusting for costs of living it makes no sense to move abroad from Poland if you work in IT, unless it's because of some niche you want to work in, that you can't find in your city.
Deoending on what you value more I recommend:
- Kraków (biggest startup scene, biggest city out of these, most active cultural scene, but also crowded with tourists, worst air quality and slightly more dangerous than the others because of football clubs violence)
- Wrocław (almost as big tech scene, less tourists and smaller city, but still expansive for Poland, safe and good air)
- Lublin (smaller city with smaller tech scene but still OK, very active culturally but mostly targeting students so in summer holidays it's a ghost city, few tourists, very cheap, highest percentage of students per capita, safe and ok air)
I'm biased because I live in Lublin, but I've lived in Kraków for a short time and in Warsaw for a few years too, and I prefer Lublin. Compared to Kraków a flat will be about 1-2k PLN (2k is very good standard or strict center, median is about 1.5k), and you can earn 10-15k PLN as a senior dev.
Food and services are also very cheap because it's basically a surprise university city in otherwise poorest countryside part of Poland.
In all of these cities there's lots of foreigners, in Kraków it's mostly tourists, in Wrocław it's mostly Ukrainians who migrated for work, in Lublin it's mostly Ukrainians and Asians who are studying there and go back afterwards.
Also - all of this is nice, but be warned that Poland has its own Trump-like revolution going on right now, so far it mostly stays political, with few real-life consequences, but it is making business more risky because of government breaking the constitution and the courts wondering which law is actually binding. Also xenophoby is increasingly used as a political tool.
I love Wroclaw, I'd move back in a heart beat if it weren't for family here in the states.
Smog.
Krakow can be really nice and interesting, but you should probably be white and Western. Otherwise, you may be setting yourself up for a tough time (not because of any recent events).
It has been ranked the most liveable city in the world for some years in a row.
Cost of living is low compared to the European average; you can rent a medium-sized apartment for 600-700€/month.
Everyone speaks English. Co-workers from Spain never bothered with German, because they can get anything done in English.
Viennas public transport system is cheap (30€/month) and excellent. You can get anywhere in the city in a reasonable amount of time. Generally, all public infrastructure is in great shape.
The tech-scene is so-so. It's certainly not London or Berlin, but there are some startups if that's your thing. There are plenty of enterprise IT jobs in banking, insurance or government.
Education and healthcare are free and nature is close. It's a 1 1/2 hour drive and you're skiing in the Alps; 2 hours and you're in the Salzkammergut swimming in mountain lakes.
All in all, it's a great city to raise a family.
Melbourne would beg to differ; there were headlines when we lost the first place position a few months ago after quite a few years at the top.
Not proposing Melbourne as an alternative though, while it's a nice place to live it's far from cheap.
Everything is relative. Personally I find it a very affordable place to live for a number of reasons:
1. I don't need a car (~$10kAUD+ a year) because transport is sufficient. 2. Queen Vic and South Melbourne markets are very accessible which make buying fresh ingredients for home cooking very affordable. 3. Entertainment is cheap, tons of cheap live music acts, art exhibitions, markets, etc. 4. Public transport is cheap (~$20/month, more if you don't live in CBD though) 5. AUD is declining against USD, by mid-2019 it's likely to be around 0.65 USD so if you make USD it's great. 6. Rent is relatively affordable. ~$1600AUD/month get you a 1 bed place in the CBD.
Those are just the money factors. As I said, it's not "cheap" but it's "relatively affordable" meaning that you can buy an awesome life here with a bit more money than traditionally cheap places but achieve a better $/Quality of Life metric.
It sounded like the OP was not intending on earning a lot though, and so somewhere that was outright cheap was probably better for them.
The city is also quite clean, as there are a lot (but still reasonable) amount of trash bins.
Also you have a lot of parks, public "beaches" on the Danube and it's side channels (those which aren't used by ships) and the big Danube island in the middle, where you can escape from the city into nature quickly.
There are also a lot of nice woods and hiking trails around Vienna. I'm also owning a mountainbike, because I can cycle to a forest/nature reserve, with a lot of really cool (down hill) trails, at the city's border in half an hour from my workplace.
I'm from a small town from the alps, and will move back there because I'm not a city person and just love my hometown - but Vienna is the one (bigger) city I could imagine living in, if I had to (considering cities >1 million people and offering at least a metro and university).
> Education and healthcare are free
It comes naturally with a price, i.e., you probably have a bit more tax then in US I'd guess, but the benefits are really great, and even if I wouldn't need it now (no health problems, no real social/money) I don't have a problem paying those taxes. Also, at the end of the month I have >2/3 of my salary left over for leisure/saving/investing/... so I really cannot complain.
Currently in the US, but contemplating moving to Munich to be close to family in Trento. Would never live in a small town in the Alps again. :)
Would love to return to Italy, but the tech sector is dismal from what I see. No connections though, all hearsay.
Seems to be a global phenomenon. Is there a place where this isn't happening?
Our politics don't represent us as a nation, if you are from somewhere else come spend some time in our coastal cities and you will be accepted as one of us.
Only the indigenous are Australian by heritage, the rest of us are immigrants too even if some people would object to that classification through their ignorance.
Being an immigrant doesn't make you less of an Australian, we are a country of immigrants and I hope one day our politics reflect that.
Everybody in the world ancestors came from somewhere else at some point in time (even the indigenous Australians). Does 10 generations of ancestors living in one country make you less of a citizen than 200?
"Just don't go to the smoking places."
A very large percentage of the adult population in Vienna still smokes tobaccco. When I was there in 2017 it felt like there were no non-smoking places.
1. Most (as in, over 50%) young adults smoke cigarettes in Vienna. You will inhale the smoke basically everywhere, in particular inside most bars or clubs, but also on the streets. On a windless day, the entire city reeks with smoke.
2. The public transport may be cheap, but the quality is poor. Not very punctual and the trams/buses/trains generally lack conditioning which in the summer turns them into 40+ degrees sweaty, stinking meat containers. To remedy this, they were handing out deodorants at the stations (seriously).
3. You won't be getting a long-term apartment without paying ca. 7 months worth of rent upfront (3 mo fees / 3 mo deposit / 1 mo first rent).
4. Any kind of self-employment is prohibitively expensive unless you charge of the order of €100/h. As a result, if you want to hire, say, a low-end personal trainer, expect to pay of the order of €100/h.
5. The typical level of customer service is really bad and could be described as "the customer is always wrong". It reminds me of Poland pre-2000s.
I have no idea why it is considered the most liveable city. I see very few advantages over, say, Warsaw/Wroclaw/Krakow/Bratislava/Budapest except perhaps the general level of safety on the streets.
Consistently ranked as a top city in the US, and world, to live in, in no small part due to the comparatively cheap cost of home prices, rent, and living in general. For example, there are nice neighborhoods in the city where one can buy a three bedroom, 2000sq foot house for < $150,000. I think that would buy a closet in the Bay area.
With Carnegie Mellon University here, the 'intellectual' and more specifically the tech scene is thriving. I work for (and take classes at) CMU and see this first hand. Numerous big tech companies have set up shop near campus (Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Uber, etc). There are many, well funded, startups operating out of the city as well (e.g. Duolingo, Petuum), most of which have spun out of CMU.
Keep in mind though that a lot of San Francisco and NYC folks move to Pittsburgh for a year or two then leave because it's not San Francisco or NYC. Public transit sucks. Traffic is really bad during rush hour (not SF bad, but it is one of the worst in the state, probably second only the Schuylkill Expressway going into Philadelphia). Nobody lives downtown because there are no supporting services downtown like grocery stores or anything like that. You 110% need a car to live there.
Is this by design? Or is there an opportunity for grocery stores, etc. to address a city planning deficit?
There is a light rail/trolley line from downtown into the South Hills area. It's great if you live next to it or can get to a park & ride. I hit it on the weekends to bike the trails along the rivers downtown. I haven't used the buses much, but the few times I've needed them, they weren't bad.
The thing that makes Pittsburgh traffic bad is the topography. Outside of downtown, nothing is a grid, and you'll likely have to go through a tunnel. Not only are they narrow (2 lanes in each direction), everyone seems to practically stop for them.
$100 all-you-can-ride per month means I don't even think about cost, and the Transit app makes route planning super easy.
I think it's very liveable if you're realistic about what liveable means in a mostly suburban part of the US - driving into downtown for work and pleasure, and leaving for everything else.
Yeah, for me "livable" means "not suburban." I'm one of those people who came to Pitt thinking it would be like mini-NYC and was massively disappointed.
As you mentioned, if you want to live in a big house here, the prices are a steal... but on the other hand, if you want a nice studio or one-bedroom, the market is just OK. I'm paying $1,300 for my one-bedroom. On the other hand, if I lived in Manhattan I could get a similar place for $1,800 and I'd make at least $15K more a year in salary... so I don't know if the cost of living here is really all that good for what you get.
How hard is it to find good doctors and red Chile.
Red chiles are pretty ubiquitous across the US, especially in urban areas; are you referring to something specific?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporations_in_Pittsb...
Transcript: http://www.paulgraham.com/pgh.html Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpfdtgW6_oI
I feel really good about the decision, CMU feels like a peer of Stanford and MIT but living here is substantially cheaper than living in Cambridge or Palo Alto. (I pay ~$750 for a 1-bedroom apartment that's ~1.5 mile from CMU campus.) The legacy of Randy Pausch's Building Virtual Worlds was also a draw for me personally, as I work in game development and was coming of age when Randy Pausch's delivered his famous Last Lecture (if you had asked me in 2008 who my personal heroes were, Randy Pausch would be the first name out of my mouth). Going to gamedev meetups has kind of allowed me to insert myself into the CMU alumni network post hoc. Very green (lots of beautiful neighborhoods), hip enough for my tastes, and the intellectual climate is everything I had hoped it would be.
If you want to live in a city where companies like Google, Uber, Amazon, and Apple have offices, Pittsburgh may be your cheapest option.
Some discussion of Pittsburgh's (tech) climate on this article from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14832249
Well.. and if you don't mind high rents: Berlin as the German Silicon Valley has tons of job offers for you, highly diverse and open-minded people and there would be no language barrier because so many people here speak English.
If intellectual stimulus is what you're after, it's like searching for gold nuggets in Berlin. Not comparable to places like London. Can't compare to smaller German university cities.
Source: Living in Berlin for a couple of years.
Also, OP did not mention he wants to optimise his income?
Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the
Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of.
Presumably sneak means "Costs of living are lower, but if you salary goes from $150,000 to €50,000 it's not clear you'll be left with higher discretionary income."And true, salaries are lower, but 60-80%?? Obviously headhunters and published ranges are to be taken with a grain of salt but a HH was trying to entice me with 90k in Berlin for data engineering a while ago and that, while not SV money, is better than "60-80% less"
PS. Based on my conversations with a friend who moved from Dallas to Amsterdam. He was in US just for ~3 years after completing his MS. He always wanted to work and live in EU for some years before returning home. He stayed in US for the loan.
Student loans are nearly evil - not that I think being irresponsible with debt is good, but they currently turn in to a near-prison for far too many people. You could spend 100k on lottery tickets and have an easier time getting it discharged than 100k on student debt.
Is your friend in Amsterdam or Dallas at the moment? I doubt you could find enough money to get me to live in Dallas (well, maybe 7 figures so I could tolerate it briefly and then retire) due to the fact that I quite like being able to commute by bike without dying.
So yes, about 3x what you get in Europe.
And saving $6k-$8k a year in auto expenses is not that much compared to a 3x increase in income.
10-20% lower salaries is something I would accept but 60-80? Come on.
- Constant store closures. Almost all Sundays and numerous holidays, almost all stores, including groceries, are closed. Don't forget to get milk or you have to trek to the central train station.
- Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside of German, Middle Eastern, and some European cuisine) is simply not on par with places like the Bay Area or London.
- Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts.
- Lots of bureaucracy and dependency trees of ID and permits, even for simple things like getting a train pass. As a reference, it costs 1500-2000 EUR to get a driver's license in Germany (including mandatory training classes), much higher than in the US or Canada. Also, there is a refugee crisis choking the German immigration system and it may take much longer than normal to get immigration-related matters sorted out.
- More public smoking, including on patios and inside bars and clubs. If you are sensitive to cigarette smoke don't plan to go to any nightclubs.
- Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
Some of this is generic to Europe, much of it less true in Berlin than elsewhere, and there are lots of positives to Germany that have been mentioned in this thread. Good luck!
Not saying you're making stuff up, just pointing out you might be a little bit exaggerating ;)
I'm not sure whether you're trying to imply causality between environmental policies and the prevalence of clothes dryers and AC, but you can certainly get those things (although they might need to fulfill some energy-efficiency criteria).
You won't find them in most apartments, but that's because Germans usually don't think they're necessary. Clotheslines continue to work in winter and the number of really hot days is too low for an AC to be worth it.
Their attitude towards AC are offset by how early and high they turn the heat on in the year.
But I never had to dry stuff out in the cold. (Lack of AC is annoying though). You might get that if you Airbnb a place from some old lady though.
would you mind explaining this? Most people have driers and public buildings usually have AC. Homes don't have AC but that's because it doesn't (or didn't used to) get too hot
Here in Denmark it is no problem to go shopping on Sunday at least until 22:00 at all and even past that it is possible.
It is so much nicer to not have to specifically plan on when to go shopping.
Somewhat counteropinion as a native German: It is much harder to make friends in Germany if you do not speak decent German. So simply learn it.
> - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
Many German homes have a tumble dryer at home.
- No one will forbid you to buy your own dryer in case you're not happy with hanging your clothes on clotheslines. We do have a dedicated clotheslines room in our building thus I never needed a dryer myself (and my clothes are getting dry within 2 days even in the winter)
- ACs are recently getting popular in offices, they're rare in private homes due to too less days we'd have to use them. I thought it was odd what I experienced when working in the States: cooling to 16C in the summer months whereas my colleagues would heat up to 22C in the winter months. I prefer sweating over getting a cold in the summer ;)
- Driver's licenses are valid for a life time and don't need renewal every now and then. We are not allowed to drive with our parents before we do the test. If you're an experienced driver, your (European) driver's license will cost you below the above mentioned # since the price depends on how many driving lessons you will need to do.
- Store closure times depends on which part of the country you live in. Berlin is quite liberal with opening hours whereas the south (especially Bavaria) is quite strict. You get used to it and learn to organize yourself better.
I currently live in Munich which offers a lot of cultural and technical inputs. Meetups are happening frequently and the community is quite active. Housing is quite expensive (if you're in an urgent need for a place to stay) but you can still find affordable housing if you look long enough. Salary when working for local companies is way above the German average.
https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/be...
"Driving licence validity in Germany. Driving licences are valid for 15 years. Licences issued before 2013, lose their validity at the latest on 19 January 2033."
„Nach Ablauf der Gültigkeit des Scheins kann er einfach neu beantragt werden.“
Thank you for saying this. Whenever I tell people this, they look at me like I'm some kind of crazy German hater who is off their rocker. If you're a foodie, Germany is hard. Unless your a fan of the local food. France, the UK, Belgium are generally much better when it comes to tasty noms.
[1] not sure how to express this, I mean just because it's a "small" place it's nor any worse just a bit different.
Moving from Göttingen to Heidelberg was an easy €200 per month rent increase for similar accommodation. The latter is certainly more scenic, but you pay for that with tourists, noise, etc.
Having said all that, there are plenty more university towns to choose from - but I've only lived in those two specifically myself. In both, the low cost of living is assisted by being able to walk or cycle everywhere around them, negating the need to own a vehicle. I only spent money on public transport if the weather was particularly bad, or when traveling long distance/with luggage.
I wonder how you came up with that one. From my experience (I am German myself), Germans are not good at English. It is not so bad within the large cities but in the countryside, good luck. Just take any of the Scandinavian countries and you will find that they have a higher percentage of people speaking English.
Living in Germany without learning German is a hard challenge. However, speaking German with an American accent is sometimes considered cool ;-)
There's nothing wrong with that. However, I would recommend that before you attempt to settle down or start using the word "relocate" you do a bit of serious traveling.
One could say that there's a place in the world for every person. One could also say that people adapt to wherever they are. Both are partially true, I think. The only way you'll know what works for you is if you live there for a while and are able to compare it with other places where you've lived. To do that you need the perspective afforded by a lot of travel.
It's one of those "opportunity cost" decisions. How many places do you need to visit, how many do you need to reject? What is your criteria for a short-list? Only you can answer that.
Though, traveling while on "vacation" and moving to a place are 2 different things. You could get a very positive vibe when you visit a new place several times because "entertainment" is roughly 80% of your goal. But from experience, things usually don't turn out that well when you settle and dig a little more by doing "boring" stuff. Things that travelers don't have to think about. But it goes back to your second point: "people adapt to wherever they are".
By "serious travel" I meant to indicate long lengths of time away in other places conducting one's life-- not simply a PTO allocation.
If you step outside of the centre of Sofia then prices plummet. Near Obelya you are looking at 12Euro for dinner for 2.
Tech scene is thriving. (There are much bigger mountains and better skiing than Scotland as well!)
Disclosure: I'm Bulgarian who used to live in UK and France, and now considering emigrating again due to the reasons stated above.
Disclosure: I got almost burned out and heavily depressed after living 4 years in Munich where everything is perfect but I could not quite accept that.
University of Chicago pulls a robust intellectual community (81 Nobel Laureates), but there is also a deep intellectual history around the arts and music that transcends the work of the university - something that I'm not sure I can say for a place like Cambridge.
The Art Institute has many of the paintings you might have seen in middle school history books, which is telling in of itself - and while everyone remembers Chicago's jazz, few know that it also invented house music (and a variety of other genres). It's home to many a political movement. It has unparalleled and extremely diverse architecture. The tech scene is doing great - and if any place will upset racial diversity in tech, it will certainly be this city.
People feel like they have a general sense of good will towards their neighbors, without losing the quick pace only a big city will offer you.
Most importantly and to your point - there is a respect for intellectual exchange no matter the discipline - Tech? Economics? Art? Policy? Medicine? Michelin-starred cuisine? I can't think of a field that you can't pursue with confidence in Chicago.
A completely trivial aside - one of the biggest complaints I hear from expats of the Bay Area is a lack of great Mexican food in Boston/Europe/etc. Thanks to a neighborhood called "Little Mexico" (which really does feel like being transported to the Mission), Chicago may be the furthest east you can go while still being able to find authentic Mexican food.
I love Chicago, and would consider living there were it not for the harsh winters. But, Dallas and Houston would like a word about being the last affordable big city in the US. I'd wager they're more affordable than Chicago, actually. Then again, if your definition of "big city" includes mass transit worth speaking of and corridors where you can live affordably near that mass transit, I guess you'd be right. Texas is stupidly backward on transit. Big roads, big trucks, big houses in big suburbs are the rule in Texas (this is changing in the major cities, though slowly).
But, they've both got all the big city stuff most people think of: Museums, food, music, culture, etc. Houston, in particular, will surprise you, as it has excellent art museums (including the Menil collection, which is probably my personal favorite museum of any I've visited, and I've traveled a lot), and one of the best opera companies in the world, among other things. Also amazingly good food due to large immigrant populations and a lot of produce that doesn't have to be shipped very far since it's grown in nearby areas. And, a very low cost of living, relatively speaking.
(Full disclosure--I grew up in Montana on the prairie, with more wind than Chicago, so my perspective might be unusual.)
I'm not saying Chicago isn't a great city for some folks. It is, but it's not the city for me, though I love to visit and when a conference is happening there I'm more likely to want to go.
But there is was an extreme that was not so funny. That was the heat wave in 1995. Nearly a thousand people died during that time. High temperature of 106, high temperature overnight (which I feel is a crime against nature), insane humidity. The city learned, in that there are now cooling centers for crisis like temperatures.
Humorously, the second-highest actual temperature I experienced was 112 during one year of harvest back in Montana. Fortunately, the humidity was low (sometimes as low as 4%) and, as it should be, it cools off at night, as the universe intended. The higher temperature was in Phoenix, when it hit 117 at sunset. Riduculous.
Yes, it can be depressing with the shorter days, and the harsher winters encouraging biological hibernation.
My take is, as a country boy, if you are need to live in a city, Chicago is excellent.
Good public transit gives me freedom to concentrate my income on things that are important to me - no car maintenance, no debt, and an even further increase to the amount of time I can be productive in a day (by doing work on a train/bus).
So keeping this criteria for "big city" in mind, I think few in the US can compare to San Francisco, New York and Chicago, and out of those three Chicago has a drastically cheaper price point.
Chicago is better in that regard, but Houston and Dallas both have a train (and some buses), like much of the Bay Area, which also has a train (and some buses)...you can live on that line and live without a car most of the time, if everything works out (like your commute also happens to be on that line). But, most people in those cities have a car, as is true of much of the Bay area. And, it's probably not useful to treat "Bay Area" as a singular city. There's really only one big city in the Bay Area that works for this argument, so someone accustomed to the Bay Area life could very well have a car.
Cars suck, of course, and every great city should stop relying on them. But, the necessity of a car is not the only factor in what makes a big city great, even though it's important.
Obligatory fajitas is not Mexican. It's American-Mexican (TexMex).
One TLDR/cusory menu check for authentic Mexican: are there mole sauce based dishes on the menu?
* security: you feel unsafe in most of the city, past a certain hour and you can't walk nor take the public transit (actually even during the day, the public transit is filled with crazy people). I could never take walks around my place when I was living there. A lot of poverty.
* no real life: there is the loop, but it's mostly offices and it dies down at night. Then there are a few single streets (wicker park, logan square, etc.) but they are rather small places where you can't really walk for a long time.
* the winter: it's freaking cold
Your nightlife thing is pretty weird. The Loop is Chicago's business district. It is dead after business hours. Don't be there. Wicker Park and Logan Square are neighborhoods, not single streets. There's also Lakeview, Avondale, Pilsen, Andersonville, and a bunch of others I'm forgetting. Maybe the argument is that together these neighborhoods constitute a pretty decent night-life, but it's hard to walk from Wicker Park to Andersonville if you want to start an evening eating tacos at the Big Star walkup and end it with beers at Hopleaf? That's fair, but that's what NYC is like too.
It does get cold here!
Compare that to London or Beijing where you feel safe at all time. Being a big city is not an excuse for feeling unsafe.
> Wicker Park and Logan Square are neighborhoods, not single streets
After one or two streets there is not much to see. Again I'm comparing this to european cities/asian cities where you can walk for hours in lively old centers/districts.
* Cheap housing with lots of options, even if you stay in the city limits (Chicago is huge).
* Cheap office space.
* Vibrant, 1st tier business community; Chicago's not the best place to try to get a tech job, but it is one of the better places to start a tech company, especially if you're bootstrapping.
* Really fantastic food and drink scene.
* Top tier venues for touring music scene; we get better shows than SFBA does.
* Functioning, wide-reaching public transit system.
Chicago con's:
* State finances are truly fucked.
* The crime situation is not a joke, though it's more a moral catastrophe than a middle+ class safety issue.
* I like cold weather but you probably don't and Chicago cold is not fucking around cold.
* The startup scene is has a serious cargo cult vibe and can be cliquish.
* Apart from the lake, outdoors stuff is adequate and unspectacular at best.
* It won't be nearly as easy to raise money here as in any tech hub.
I think if you buy into the premise (big city, cold weather 1/4 of the year), Chicago is easily the best value in the US. But lots of people reasonably don't buy into that, and if you don't, you probably won't love the city the way its boosters do.
While it's not as cheap as many cities you'll find abroad, it is extremely affordable compared to US cities. The food is fantastic and affordable. There is a wonderful intellectual community. The nightlife is amazing, if you're into that. It's also possible to find lots of space, as the city is geographically massive with many different neighborhoods with diverse vibes.
The big downside is the winter. However, if you know how to dress for the weather and don't live somewhere incredibly remote, you can mitigate a lot of that inconvenience.
Again, you'll be paying more than you would in Thailand, but for the US it's really fantastic.
- Taxes are extremely high here, with no sign of slowing down
- Political corruption is rampant in the state
- Crime is mostly relegated to south side of city, but it's still an issue
- Public works are decaying: train stations, airport, and everything else look like they need work
- Schools are undesirable and a magnet/charter school has very high competition.
My wife and I have lived here our whole lives and are considering joining several friends who have recently moved to the Nashville area to alleviate the above mentioned items. There is no state income tax in TN, public schools in suburbs are good w/ only a 20 minute drive into the city. There are some drawbacks but we're comfortable with the trade-off.
1. Effective property tax rate: SF ~1.2%, Chicago ~1.7% *
2. State income tax: SF 9.3%+, Chicago 4.95%
3. Combined state, county + city sales tax: SF 8.5%, Chicago 10.25%
(* But property taxes do get much higher in the suburban townships!)
Altogether, the lower state income tax more than offsets the slightly higher property tax.
But taxes is a favorite bugbear in local political campaigns, because they're an easy item for politicians to harp on (who doesn't want lower taxes after all?). The other day I saw a political ad where the actor proclaimed, "I'm moving out of Illinois because taxes are too high! Support XYZ for governor." But let's be honest, uprooting one's family just to optimize a few percentage points on the tax return is a terrible idea. And as long as there are good jobs available, taxes are just one living expense among many.
As for the other items, I can't agree with them either. Chicago Public Schools are totally fine - they're very much focused on educating working-class and/or immigrant kids, so they're not like rich suburban schools with all the bells and whistles, but they do their job very well. And the magnet schools are top notch. Public works are a patchwork, but for example CTA is very well funded and runs much better than either MTA or MUNI. As for corruption - ok, I'll give you that one. ;)
https://graphics.wsj.com/table/Connecticut_102015
Combined with the fact that the rest of IL isn't burgeoning, and that Chicago is the main source of income, it would be prudent to expect ever increasing taxes and reduced services. Other states also have problems, but there are a few states whose problems are in another league.
Personally, I would need a big discount to consider Chicago, as being outdoors is a big part of my life.
Which is what allowed politicians to kick the can down the road for so long. So yes, there is a hole and it needs to be plugged. But this is a big state, plan assets are considerable, and there's a lot of new contributions coming in all the time as well. This won't trigger "ever increasing taxes" as some doomsaying politicians put it, there can be a correction once there is political will to do so.
My evidence on the other items is anecdotal, but that is my opinion and I'm understanding of the fact others may disagree.
Offset by an insane tax rate. Highest effective in the nation. Also, any actually desirable place to purchase a house is going to be just as expensive as anywhere else minus the tech hubs.
Plus it's cheap. There's so much housing stock available, you can find a place at practically any price point you want, from super affordable to very expensive. I tell my SFBA friends how much I paid for a condo in the city and their eyes pop out. :)
Also the hiring situation is desirable. Northwestern and UChicago are top notch schools, and many of their graduates would prefer to stay in the area for work.
It may be slightly cheaper. But as they say "there are two seasons in Chicago: Winter and Construction." Either way, traffic is gonna suck.
And of course there's the weather, the Political Machine that runs the city (and to a lesser extent the State), and of course the traffic.
While I agree Chicago offers incremental upgrades to many of the "worse" major cities in the US, the difference does not justify the cost of uprooting and moving there.
That said, the food scene is great, the night life is great, and the city just has a nice, chill vibe in general. For somebody who likes, or can tolerate, cold winters, it's probably a great place to live. For the rest of us, it's a great place to visit.
Very easy to pick up development work here for a local company, you won't be required to know Spanish/Catalan for a job. The only downsides are that the pay is relatively low (€43k average for SE) and it can be quite difficult to find a place to live without local contacts.
Edit - on the intellectual front, I am the least qualified person in my friend group with a lowly Bachelors in Computer Science. Most people have a minimum of Masters with PHDs being pretty prevalent.
I know pay is not the only factor, but heck, I make half in my home country, but the living costs are far lower (and I don't even pay rent).
That actually seems like a rather good salary indeed, surely from a Belgian point of view.
With that amount of money one could afford a very sweet place to live easily, and still have plenty of spending money for intellectual pursuits or whatever.
Speaking English is no issue here, at least in the "hip" parts of town.
Would I say it's the best place to live? Probably not (Switzerland would probably rank higher), but one could do a lot worse. And with a decent IT job it's easy living. Dirt cheap compared to Silicon Valley prices.
I might move from Tokyo to Berlin and due to a combination of cost of living and taxes have the same after tax income, even though absolutely €70000 is a fuckton more. That goes for anywhere in Europe though.
I would recommend Tokyo as a great place to live overall, but intellectual and english, not so much :P
3.8K after taxes anywhere in W-Europe (outside of London) is pretty good salary
1) climate -- not moderate, only good if you enjoy extremely hot summers
2) culture -- obscured by the tourism industry in the city. Pretty much all restaurants try to rip you off, public parks charge entry for certain areas, everything culture-related is aimed and priced for tourists.
3) architecture -- nice, but not really exceptional. buildings really tight together in the city center.
4) quality of living - very high cost of life, low local salaries
5) EXTREMELY dirty. Diesel car pollution makes the air toxic and unbearable. No walking culture, everyone drives everywhere (which makes sense, the air is toxic)
I would not move there.
Basque, Valencian, and Andalusian culture are a just as "strong" and unique as Catalan.
1) Climate - Yes the summers are warm, but not extremely hot, I have a lot worse time when i go visit the southern US for example.
2) Yes I totally agree we have way too much tourism in the city. However, the restaurants that try to rip you off etc are all in the touristy areas, and most of us who live here dont go down to those areas anyway. Regarding paying for parks, its 1 park, and if you live here its free. Most colture-related stuff has good cheaper offers for local citizens.
3) This is just personal taste, the city center is the old city with over 1000 years of history, its normal that the streets are small and disorganized.
4) Yes its expensive to live here, but we also have a great quality of life, with lots of places to go eat, drink and enjoy yourself. Yes the local salaries are quite on the low end, but if you find a good international company you should be fine.
5) I dont know where you come from, but its not unbearable; also there is tons of walking culture in this city. There is an great public transport that can get you almost anywhere in the city in just a few minutes. Most people dont drive, or even own a car, its mostly people living outside the city (or on rainy days). We do have days that are worse in regards to traffic and pollution, but this is a problem most large cities are facing and there are projects in place to improve.
So im sorry if you have had a bad time in Barcelona, and I agree there are things that need work, but its not as horrible as you say. Hopefully they keep adding bike lanes and continue to reduce the car traffic in the city center.
Having lived in the worlds most liveable city, Melbourne, for several years, I have so far found Barcelona to be far more enjoyable. The thing that has stood out is that people actually care about their city and socio-political events that affect their lives.
I personally think the tourist issue is overhyped and most of them don't stray from the centre of the city.My local beach, Mar Bella which is only 1.5-2km from the city has zero tourists. Airbnb is a problem but this is a global phenomenon.
Your biggest pedestrian street, La Rambla, is a 10m wide sidewalk with intense car traffic on both sides. You walk in the middle of traffic and inhale the diesel exhaust that makes you choke whilst strange looking people try to offer you counterfeit bags and shoes from the large blankets they've (probably illegally) put across the pavement. Not my idea of a good time and probably not the best way to run your most famous street.
> Regarding paying for parks, its 1 park
could be, but you can probably understand how charging entry for (parts of) a fairly small park is unusual and is going to make visitors feel like they're being nickel and dimed wherever they go.
> So im sorry if you have had a bad time in Barcelona, and I agree there are things that need work, but its not as horrible as you say. Hopefully they keep adding bike lanes and continue to reduce the car traffic in the city center.
That's alright, I had an OK time overall, but I came in with higher expectations and was disappointed that some things (like the traffic pollution in the city center) felt a bit behind the times for modern European cities.
Next time use numbers for the air pollution level, maybe will sound less ridiculous.
There are versions of this basic idea in many towns in England, usually looks something like this: https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/58...
Separately, there are cities that closed conventional asphalt roads to cars, without doing any physical road reconstruction, and just marked them as pedestrian-only. I've seen examples of this in Bulgaria and Romania.
My point is, don't get too hung up on the terminology, but question why is there the need for so much car traffic in the city center and pretty much no restrictions on polluting vehicles. For example, in Berlin, your car needs to be at least Euro 4 compliant to enter the city center. As a result, the roads are less busy and the air quality is much better.
About your main complaint, air pollution (at the moment I write it):
Barcelona, center - 17,
Berlin - 38,
London - 46.
https://aqicn.org/city/spain/catalunya/barcelona-eixample/
Not really, my original point was that it's stupid to have intense car traffic surrounding the pedestrian part of La Rambla. But either way, your terminology argument is completely invalid too, as demonstrated by the examples.
> Only examples you were able to find are either temporary pedestrian zones or roads without physical reconstruction.
So, to sum up, according to you, my argument is invalid because, excluding the proof that I gave you, I have no proof :) Hilarious.
So what about numbers of air pollution level? Any comments? Or you "feel" something else, what can't be described by numbers? Pretty sure you will try to ignore this part again, because you have nothing to say :)
These streets are 100% pedestrian.
> So what about numbers of air pollution level? Any comments? Or you "feel" something else, what can't be described by numbers? Pretty sure you will try to ignore this part again, because you have nothing to say :)
I have already commented on this in the rest of the thread. If you're interested, feel free to read that and also consider how diesel exhaust (NO2 / NOx) gets converted into other pollutants and that isn't accurately captured by the numbers you sent me. Whilst other pollutants tend to damage your lungs in a way that you can't immediately feel, diesel exhaust causes choking and feels like suffocation. And there's plenty of the latter in the streets of Barcelona - let's not pretend that inhaling exhaust from 15+ year old diesels is great for your health, that's pretty dumb.
But I suspect that you aren't really interested in any of that and won't do any of the reading required to understand this point, that is why I didn't bother to type it up in the previous post.
In some days, lol.
My numbers are "wrong" but sources with "correct" numbers you can't find. So predictable. Just learn to admit when you are wrong.
Everything from free or lowcost music festivals, to street parties, to lighting installations in the park. And thats just been the last 3 weeks in a very small radius. Theres also free museums and music gigs are incredibly good value.
Plus the beach is free, the mountains are free, walking around Montjuic is free.
We still had a lovely time, but when you've got limited time in a place it's worth noting that you need to book things before you go. People that like to set plans to see certain things at certain times might find themselves disappointed, even if they were happy to pay a bit extra to book on the day.
2) Looks like you were here only as tourist - locals just avoid touristic restaurants, there's a plenty of good restaurants in Barcelona;
3) Barcelona has a lot of really exceptional architecture examples, not just "old church" buildings like in all other cities of Europe. "Really tight together in the center" - 4.75 meters sidewalk on the each side of the street, it's numbers for Eixample district, center of Barcelona. If all you saw was Gothic district ("old town") - it's just small district of the culture legacy;
4) It depends on skills. Salaries here are good enough by Spanish measures;
5) Pure lie. Really, you want to say you measured air pollution levels? Or you can see transparent gases? Try to check your map next time - maybe you'll see huge source of the fresh air - sea. See some photos of the streets to argue about "extremely dirty".
One criteria is against OP: it's not a cheap city, definitely. Most expensive in Spain, one of the most expensive in Europe.
https://instagram.com/p/BgYt8jwAiAp/ https://instagram.com/p/Bh_gZkcHRvf/ https://instagram.com/p/BgJJQlWA_mJ/
I don't need a special device to tell me the air is bad whilst I'm suffocating :)
1. Climate is far better than most large US cities, and moderate. July highs of 86F are hardly "extremely hot".
2. Absolutely not true for 95% fo the city. Maybe get out of Gotic next time?
3. I don't even know how to respond to this point. Most cities have dense centers. Few have buildings like the Palau de la Música Catalana, the Sagrada Familia, or the Cathedral.
4. High cost of life? Compared to the rest of Spain, sure. Compared to the US? Not particularly. Salaries are low locally but purchasing power is higher.
5. Again, no idea what you're talking about. Most people walk or take the metro everywhere. Average air pollution in Barcelona is lower than most major US cities and many other major European cities as well.
How about August. I was there in September, it was 28-30C throughout the day almost every day. Either way, that's a personal preference.
> 2. Absolutely not true for 95% fo the city. Maybe get out of Gotic next time?
I did and I have also been to places outside of Barcelona. For example, I've had much better quality food at same or lower prices in London, Rome and Milan. The truth is, in this regard, Barcelona is very much second rate.
> 3. I don't even know how to respond to this point. Most cities have dense centers. Few have buildings like the Palau de la Música Catalana, the Sagrada Familia, or the Cathedral.
Sure, I don't really mind it. I was somewhat amused at how certain parts are overbuilt, but not with really old buildings, but just stuff that looks to be from the 70s or 80s. Most historical cities have done a better job at protecting their historical city centres.
> 4. High cost of life? Compared to the rest of Spain, sure. Compared to the US? Not particularly. Salaries are low locally but purchasing power is higher.
I think your claim here is obviously false. According to Numbeo:
Local Purchasing Power in Barcelona is 40.50% lower than in San Francisco, CA
Local Purchasing Power in Barcelona is 20.21% lower than in New York, NY
Local Purchasing Power in Barcelona is 48.42% lower than in Austin, TX
and so on. I don't think there is even one mid-sized or major city where that holds true.
For example, a salary advertised as EUR 45K in Spain does not include taxes and benefits (mostly unemployment insurance and medical) paid by the company.
So a SE with a gross salary of EUR45K directly costs the company employing here some EUR60K (i.e. some USD70).
The employee full cost to the company is never konwn to the employee (some 30% is somewhat hidden), unlike in other countries such as France. I guess it helps government to appear they do more with less taxes seen by their voters.
There are other indirect benefits, such as layoff benefits. If a Spanish company fires you without cause, it is liable to pay you 33 days per year worked.
I'm mentioning because comparing gross salaries in different countries, is a bit like comparing apples to samsungs.
It adds more protection by law for the population less likely to purchase such protection out of their pocket.
It’s probably less efficient but less ruthless for those who do not know any better and could easily become homeless shortly after losing a job.
I moved here from North America and have previous work experience in Silicon Valley. The startup vibe is slowly getting stronger and we’ve been very fortunate to get linked into the ecosystem.
Glasgow's tech scene isn't the biggest but we're a friendly bunch and there's lots going on.
https://opentechcalendar.co.uk/
This site is pretty good for seeing all the tech meetups/events in the UK.
I live in Paisley (town 20 minute train ride away) but that's the opposite of a tech scene.
And every day you get to go over the Forth Bridge is a good day...
The pay is a bit lower than other parts of the UK (for tech), but that is changing and you can always find yourself remote work as well.
Most (but far from all) startups in Edinburgh are based in the Codebase building: https://www.thisiscodebase.com/. We also have a couple of unicorns that were started here, Skyscanner and FanDuel; Amazon and Smartsheet also have offices; and Rockstar North is where GTA is developed.
All of the above companies are within 10-20 minutes walk of the Edinburgh Waverley train station. Public transport is awesome mainly because the city is quite small and buses are frequent and cheap.
There are plenty of meetups too - see https://techmeetup.co.uk/ for the biggest general one, which is also live streamed. There are others on security, JavaScript, Go, Machine Learning etc.
If you like hiking/camping/hill walking then Scotland is a great country for you - you have a view of the Pentland hills from the city, and Arthur's Seat in Holyrood park right next to our parliament buildings. You can be in the Cairngorms national park within a few hours by car/train.
Upper end for Senior Engineer take home pay after taxes is around £4,000 pm. You could rent a nice apartment for £1,000 pm, but could get something small and habitable for £600.
Edinburgh is Scotland's most international city, which is a double edged sword as the tackiness of the tourist shops up and down the Royal Mile showcase. But there's lots of great things to do and see, and varied places to eat and drink. The University of Edinburgh is one of the UK's best (I recently walked past Prof Peter Higgs :) and students come here from all over. The Edinburgh Festival is (one of?) the biggest arts festivals in the world and runs for the whole month of August. The Fringe Festival is a world famous testing ground for stand up comics - there's a great Netflix special from Hannibal Buress about his experience of the Edinburgh Fringe.
Big downside to the city is that it doesn't have a tech sector as well developed as, say, London. Also for as stunning and booming as the city is, the weather is pretty bad especially owing to its unpredictability i.e. four seasons in one day. It's drier than most of Scotland but that's not saying much. It's cold and the winters have short days. The flip side is that a sunny summer's day will be one of the most enjoyable of anywhere in the world.
EDIT: and yeah, I echo other warnings about waiting until the Brexit debacle has concluded to see what things are like for the UK
The unpredicatable nature of weather in Scotland means that if it looks bright and sunny in the morning, you still need to leave your house with a jacket because you cannot guarantee that it won't rain heavily later in the day. Depending on when you take lunch or arrive at work, some people will be drenched, some will enjoy clear skies and sunshine. This isn't necessarily like this every day, but prepare for variability.
The dry air in the winter can make dry your skin, so moisturise well. It can also get windy.
That said, it's fairly temperate. The weather usually goes as low as minus single digit celsius, and as high as sub-30 celsius. And compared to other locations in Scotland it rains a lot less.
https://www.climatedata.eu/climate.php?loc=ukxx0052&lang=en
With regard to Brexit, it's hard to know where to begin so I'll recap and potentially editorialise.
The Conservative party (popular right wing political party), which is currently ruling as a minority government, has historically been split on the subject of integration with Europe. One side likes banks, free trade, free movement and big business and doesn't mind a bit of bureaucracy (pro Europe); the other likes deregulation, sovereignty, controlled immigration, "brass plaques", and small/medium business (anti Europe). This argument led to a polarising vote to the populace about whether we should leave the European Union or not.
Joining the European Union, which the UK did in the 1970s, was initially about centralising trade agreements. Now though it has a common currency (though the UK retains its own independent currency), legislates and regulates on many varied aspects of life and business, and takes huge membership fees and pays out lots of grants. Some see this as a good system even if reform is needed, some absolutely hate this with a passion.
The public vote polarised the country greatly and ended 52%/48% in favour of leaving the EU. Even if the result was conclusive the fact it's within a rounding error, the winning side committed electoral fraud and made lots of promises which they instantly backed down from, and there's evidence of Russian intereference, so there's a lot of bad feeling from both sides as many can't accept the result as final.
The key take away is that the UK has had 2 years to negotiate leaving but being in the EU affects so many aspects of life, that almost nothing has been decided and there remain so many grey areas. The worry now is that no deal will be reached and leaving the EU without a deal creates massive legal uncertainty in almost every industry conceivable, and means all trade between UK and the rest of the world (currently done via EU trade agreements) will instantly get WTO tariffs - in effect putting instantaneous costly barriers to all goods and services.
At present we're hoping politicians will become sensible and sort something out that doesn't plunge the country into financial ruin, but it's the uncertainty that's the problem at the moment.
Add to this, many in Scotland wish to be independent (another similarly polarising issue) and feel their wishes regarding Brexit are being ignored by the UK government (Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK wanted to decisively remain in the European Union 62%/38%).
So in conclusion: (a) there's a lot of uncertainty about the UK leaving the European Union in spring next year and what this will do to the smooth running of the country (b) if the UK does leave in a crash and burn style, that may lead to renewed calls for Scotland to become independent and who knows what that will look like. Caveat emptor.
(and for full transparency of my personal bias: I'm pro European, anti Conservative party, pro Scottish independence, and was on the 100,000+ march for a 2nd independence referendum at the weekend)
You'll probably be fine as a tourist but as I said, it's the uncertainty that's the problem. If it were me, I'd leave a week or two before 29th March.
Per month: Rent is 500-600 EUR max (worst case unless you're actively looking to splurge), with the average going around 250-300 or so.
You can cover food and taxes at a basic level on another 300. Of course, YMMV if you only order restaurant food and such, but if you stop by a supermarket every now and then you're set to go as low as 600 EUR/mth to live comfortably. I got by on 400 when I really had to in the past.
It's full of tech companies (most involved in outsourcing for Germany, the UK and the US) that pay decently for the appropriate experience - at least when you compare how much you'll have left at the end of the month vs UK and Germany for example.
There are several major universities around, foreigners are a common enough sight and virtually everybody (that you're likely to run into) born in the 90s or later speaks English on at least a basic level.
There are plenty of events on a general level, though if you're looking to find communities focused on very specific niches, you will likely have a harder time than in SF, mostly due to the smaller population size.
You can likely afford to not have a commute at all if you go in the 500+ range for rent.
I've been living in it ever since I started college in it many years ago, and weighing the pros and cons, I find it can really go toe to toe with a lot more famous cities in terms of the kind of lifestyle you can afford and the problems you put up with in exchange.
Not sure if US citizens require a visa or not.
LE: Based on points made in other posts - it's rated as one of the safest cities in Eastern Europe and has very affordable private health care. Getting a tooth fixed, for example, is around 40 EUR. A doctor's appointment is usually in the 25-40 EUR range for most specializations. Public healthcare, unfortunately, is worth avoiding if it can be helped.
Water has decent quality - you can drink the tap water - but a filter is not a bad investment. Air quality is rated quite high relative to most other cities in the EU as well.
Great net speed.
BTW what about food? I am picking a location for doing remote job next few year in Europe, now it seems that Romania should be part of my short list.
Like, I really love to eat, so it would be nice to know whether Cluj-Napoca have a diverse catering service.
Regarding food, I'm from Bucharest and the food variety and quality is not amazing compared to a major Western metropolis. But food is cheap and if you ask some locals plus you do some research you should be ok. Cluj is smaller so I don't imagine it being better than Bucharest regarding food.
I think Romania is awesome in terms of food. There are plenty of options (in the big cities, Cluj being one) in restaurants as well as in supermarkets. I always urge for Romanian food after traveling abroad. Home cooking is still big in Romania and you'll find a lot of restaurants offering "home cooked" like dishes.
In terms of stability I wouldn't worry, at least not for the next 3-5 years. Romania is a member of EU and NATO and I know it gets a lot of bad press (which is deserved and actually there is a lot of political turbulence lately) but for a foreigner I think it doesn't really matter (Poland and Hungary are still great regardless of the current political struggles).
A 1Gbps (1000Mbps) internet connection is ~9Euros/month
Downside: Bureaucracy, lack of highways, public healthcare system (there is a private one though wich is decent), very slow trains
[0] https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/most-educated-cities-i...
Ann Arbor is also quite fantastic. I study middle-eastern percussion, and Ann Arbor is a hub for my musical world. Every time I visit family in Michigan I take a couple of days to play house parties, go to concerts, take lessons, and jam. The Arabic/Turkish music scene there is very vibrant, and the city itself is unexpectedly diverse for the midwest.
The cost of living in Michigan is lower than in some third world countries. I bought my mother a house in Grand Rapids, in cash, for less than 25% of what it would have cost me for a down-payment on a 750 ft^2 condo in a really bad neighborhood in San Francisco.
The weather, however, is the deal-closer for me. Winters are pretty miserable.
(edited for clarity and punctuation)
There is a growing tech scene here with companies like Duo (sold for 2bn to cisco), barracuda networks, and a thriving startup scene (farmlogs, trove, spark incubator, etc.).
We have excellent meetups -- at least for javascript (regularly 100 people attend them).
The food here is pretty great considering the size of A2.
The cost of living, however, is quite a bit more expensive than most places in the midwest. Getting an apartment downtown is going to run you close to $1.5-2k.5/mo. There is definitely affordable living here, but you'll have to look further outside the 2mi radius of downtown A2. Purchasing a house in A2 is extremely difficult and fairly expensive.
Also, we are 45 mins away from Detroit, which is making a huge comeback. It has a ton of cultural diversity and some excellent food, things to do.
My studio apartment is about $1k a month in a nice part of town right next to a train stop. I really like that since Chicago is the third largest city in the country, you can probably find just about anything here'd you want, without having to pay as much to live here as you would on the coasts.
That's definitely something to consider though if you need the sun. I found that having access to the train makes it way easier to get around in the snow compared to having to drive everywhere, but YMMV for sure.
https://boston.craigslist.org/search/aap?bedrooms=1&maxAsk=1...
Looks like it’s pretty easy to find a sub-$1000/mo bedroom
If the OP is into anarchism, art, and culture I would recommend Napoli. An apartment in the best location imaginable would never be more than €700. Airport is a few minutes from the city center. The food, from restaurant to Farmers markets, is unbelievably good and costs little. The intellectual life, well...
It's true that it's not Berlin, but on the other hand it's not any harder to get around in english in southern italy than in portugal (the suggestion in the current top post in this thread).
Rent price : 200$/month for a 1000sqft apartment. Bangalore is often called the silicon valley of India, filled with software professionals.
Majority of the city's inhabitants are migrants from other parts of the country and almost everyone communicates in English.
The living expenses for a couple is not more than 600-700$/month including rent for a decent lifestyle.
The city has a good pub culture and mostly urban population. The weather almost throughout the year is pleasant 25-30 degree C and light rains for around 4-5 months.
Ample available Shared co-working spaces filled with emerging software startups.
Although I would also like to point out some cons:
As an American, you might find the chaos of an Indian city overwhelming for some time. There are people literally everywhere and all common use services(taxi service, public transportation, laundry services, cafes, restaurants) are usually exhausted to the brim.
Traffic: Imagine NewYork in peak hours.
Also the online ecosystem is very highly developed in India. Look at http://nobroker.com, housing.com, 99acres.com , etc etc
Bigger roads, much better infrastructure/subway system. We actually have close to 7-8 world class universities in the city (IITD, AIIMS, NSIT, DCE, IIITD, etc).
Rentals are also cheaper.
It's one of the few places where pedestrian art markets are actually created - show me the equivalent of Dilli Haat, National Gallery of Modern Art anywhere else in India.
It would be interesting to hear you think that's true about the rest of India as well.
Market salaries for senior engineers in India are at valley level. The startup scene in India rivals only the Valley and I do not think any other country (including Europe ) comes close to the action here.
Most interestingly, as an expat you are not blocked from starting up. This is just the latest of a bunch of expats raising large venture money in India - https://yourstory.com/2018/09/how-a-chinese-entrepreneur-bui... . That in itself puts India miles ahead of locked down ecosystems in China, Europe and several other countries.
Medical care is dirt cheap. People travel to India from the US to get surgeries done which cost less than a day visit to a US clinic. Oh and the food ain't bad.
Lots of great colleges - IIT D, JNU, AIIMS, DCE Housing - You can get a 2500ft 3BHK high rise condo in gurgaon for ~800$/month. With that you'll get a jacuzzi, modular kitchen, round the clock security, pool , gym etc.
Labour is cheap - Maids which do cleaning, laundry and cooking cost ~150$/month. Drivers cost around 300 . You really don't have to do chores
Great food - Everything is app based anyway, so you can get good quality pasta/salad home delivered to your place at 3AM for less than 10 dollars.
Activities - you get go karting, mystery rooms, great dining places in both delhi in gurgaon, also an f1 track which has track days where you can drive your own car on the buddha circuit for cheap!
Good Roads - Unlike some cities in India, the NCR region is connected by highways since it's made up of multiple states. Though if you have got friends in another part of town, it can mean a commute of upto 70 kms. It has a population of 24 million.
Great quality weed - weed is virtually legal and will set you back by ~10$/quarter and concentrates for ~70$/q. Lots of microbreweries in gurgaon too.
Cons
Pollution - It can get a bit bad in winter, but you can install airpurifiers in your car and home to offset most of the effects.
- In no situation it will take 2 hours for a km unless there is a natural disaster period. - Bangalore is one of lesser polluted cities in India. Pollution index is mostly green. SFO is much better though in terms of particulate matter index. - Nightlife, i haven't experienced in SFO so will not comment.
You can justify a move from SFO to BLR if you want a multitude cheaper place to live without losing out too much on the tech community. I live an above average lifestyle for less than 500$.
Pollution masks are almost a necessity if you are in Banglore and care about your lungs[2]. There are traffic everywhere. Also have you seen Bellandur and other lakes of Banglore recently? Bellandur lake is the most polluted lake in India[3]. I dont even want to start on water scarcity.
> You can justify a move from SFO to BLR if you want a multitude cheaper place to live without losing out too much on the tech community.
He would be also be making an order of magnitude less. After working for some years and going back to US he would be having peanuts as savings. The tech community is also not anywhere good as SFO. What you see in SFO today you can expect to see in Banglore after a few years rebranded in a diffrent name.
And the nightlife and quality of life is just terrible when you compare to SFO. I don't understand why will anyone who is on their senses will move to Banglore from SFO.
[1] https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-so-much-traffic-in-bangal...
[2] https://medium.com/@selfishaltruist/how-bad-is-bangalore-air...
[3]https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/bangalore-india-...
$700 is just not gonna happen for an couple with rent, and you are talking about an American with a different food habit. More like $1000.
Horrible traffic, non-existent public transport, water scarcity, pollution and dust are just cherry on top.
Source: I’ve been there.
edit: also the exchange rate is favorable, so if you have savings in USD they will go a long way.
One of the weird things about the NBN roll-out was rural areas getting more attention than city suburbs.
In some ways that makes the possibility of getting out and working remote better, you could buy a much cheaper house and have it paid off much sooner in a nice town, if that's your bag.
Edit: which is mainly why I'm in Melbourne.
Edit2: though to be fair, looking at half the suggestions so far, no one seems to be taking said criteria very seriously.
The entire state only has 500k people in it, and you feel it. Shops close early, and close multiple days a week to save staff costs. You have to buy most stuff online, and shipping takes a while longer than anywhere else (for obvious reasons). The internet is mostly fixed wireless, unless you're in the middle of Hobart. There's regular power and Internet outages. There's a lack of people-stuff, so very few meetups, and it's very hard to find friends.
Most my family are down there (chefs and farmers), and it absolutely suits the outdoors types. Fishing, boating, hiking, and photography are all just cheating down there.
But I wouldn't call it a hub for... anything. You're on an island, and it very much feels like it.
Without a doubt one of my absolute favourite places in Australia (and the world) to holiday though. It's in my top 5 "places people must see before they die" list.
hobart is not a great choice if you are looking to find software-related work locally. you'd be better off in one of the bigger "mainland" australian cities, melbourne, sydney or brisbane, or perhaps perth if the mining industry is in full boom phase. +/- intellectual atmosphere.
The living costs are low and there is a thriving intellectual community, but there is definitely a language barrier. Most Taiwanese can speak enough English to be friendly and helpful (which they are), but not enough to have intellectual conversations. If you are willing to tolerate the language barrier and put in the time to find the people who can converse intellectually in English then it's a good option. I can't say how much of an intellectual English-speaking community there is since I haven't explored that.
Otherwise, I can't say enough good things about Taipei as a city. You can find a nice apartment downtown for $600/mo or less, the public transportation is amazingly good, and I've never traveled anywhere with better food for the money, provided you're willing to eat Taiwanese, Chinese, or Japanese food most days.
Haven't been to KL personally, but from what I understand it's relatively polluted and doesn't have the same quality of life as the other three.
(That said most people I speak to don't share my opinion here)
To make my store complete (for anyone thinking about coming to KL), here are some precise reasons why I think KL is nice:
- Literally everyone speaks English, basically fluent.
- Great public transport.
- Road traffic is light outside rush hours.
- Huge middle class, I don't see any poverty here really (compared to the rest of SEA). A ton of nice condos, very very reasonably priced.
- Mix of cultures (lots of Chinese Malay and Indian Malay) -> amazing food
- Almost no crime (this is the same in all of SEA)
From what I understand, part of it is just English being vastly different from Japanese, and the other part is the Japanese school system being really terrible at language teaching.
i love japan in general, had a lot of friends luckily that spoke great english, but the cost of living for me was 1700 usd per month (this was back in 2006, of course i lived in high flying shinjuku), and the english barrier was difficult to get over. probably if i was a bit younger and didn't need to seriously advance my career, i would have stuck it out and learned the language. you could probably find a decent apartment for 800-1200 usd, not sure what the rate is now.
i do think the high-tech scene is good in tokyo, the food awesome, the culture one of a kind, i just wasn't patient enough to learn the language.
On the other hand, if you live there, it might be necessary to learn Chinese if you don't want to feel like you're living in a bubble in the long run.
1) Define "cheap". You're in the Bay Area, which is by every definition the opposite of "cheap", but substituting that with something like Seattle or Austin or Brooklyn doesn't sound like it's accomplishing what you're looking for to me, even though it's absolutely cheaper. You said you want to focus on your own intellectual pursuits, so are you planning to quit your job and just try to pick up freelance gigs here and there to pay bills or live off your savings or what?
2) Related to #1... if you plan on quitting your job and just freelancing it or living off your savings, you're going to run into visa issues if you move abroad. If you're planning on finding a job somewhere else that heavily impacts the situation - it needs to be a tech center that offers other options that will sponsor you. What's the intention here?
3) What non-work features/perks/requirements/options are you concerned about? Middle of nowhere Kansas is one of the cheapest places you could possibly find in the US, but it's absolutely not for everyone and won't work out if you like having new restaurants opening every week, going to museums, and the other little things a big city provides to add variety to life.
4) Living in the Bay Area means you're used to cool and rainy but still mild weather year-round. Do you think you could deal with snow and wind with temperatures well into the negative? If not winters in Northern Europe (and, realistically, a lot of the rest of Europe) are going to be a problem. Not a fan of humid and stagnant with no air conditioning? That's going to mean the Caribbean, Central/South America, and parts of the Pacific aren't going to be an option - it's not standard there because of the power requirements. If you end up somewhere with a drastically different climate that can completely destroy your motivation and mood, which could be a deal breaker.
Living in the Bay Area means you're used to cool and rainy
Rainy? Rain averages 13-14 inches a year in San Jose.Have you ever actually been to the bay area? Compared to the most of the country, compared to most of the developed world it's sunny as all hell.
Also, only SF proper could be considered particularly "cool".
Gray and miserable is a quantifiable thing, but doesn’t match with the normal measure. It doesn’t have much to do with climate overall but can be disasterous to your mood. He’s looking at leaving the area in debate, so does it really matter what anyone else thinks about it? Of course not, it was purely a talking point to make sure OP thought about the climate.
That said, you get advantage of being right next to Copenhagen. It is a big market of jobs there. Salaries are high because it is a big, crowded city with high living expenses. So you could live in Malmö for cheap and commute to Copenhagen for work.
All that said, as a 26 year old, I managed to take a gap year in Malmö now, after working/saving for 4 years, while managing to keep paying my mortgage, owning a car etc.
I lived in Sweden for seven years, and this is so far from the truth it's hilarious.
Relative quality of life is garbage in Sweden for a tech worker. Your life will be not that much better than if you work in Carlings selling plaid shirts to hard-rock hipsters.
My Swedish friends have decent jobs and still live unglamorous, frugal lives. As soon as I left Sweden, my quality of life completely transformed for the better.
If you go to live and work in Sweden, where will you actually stay? You can't rent an apartment — the waiting list is around 16 years for a decent apartment in the city. It's even several years wait to rent an apartment in the ghetto.
How did your colleagues find apartments? If they didn't buy places or have apartments provided through their employer, I'm guessing they're sub-letting through Blocket.
For reference, Stockholm's suburbia is places like Hägersten.
If you're a low-skilled worker, QoL is likely going to be better in Sweden. If you're a tech worker, QoL is almost certainly going to be better in Poland.
I might be misinterpreting your point, but it seems like you're taking the position that it doesn't matter that Sweden is outrageously expensive in many regards, because money has no impact on quality of life anyway. If that is indeed the position you're taking, well, it's a trite and nonsensical one.
Your final sentence makes me believe I've misinterpreted you, so apologies in advance if that's the case.
If you're a tech worker in Poland, you will feel far wealthier living in Poland than if you're a tech worker living and working in Sweden. You will be able to live in a nicer home, eat out at restaurants more often, and generally have more money to do stuff with.
Buying things (clothes, gadgets) is a different story, because they can't import the stuff any cheaper than Sweden does, but I don't think the difference there is enough to counteract the general difference in QoL and buying power between living in the two countries.
Edit: Also, to clarify, I did not say that quality of life for a tech worker is garbage. It's actually generally great, as I think everyone here knows. My point is that if you want to reap the financial benefits of being a tech worker, Sweden is not the place to do it.
Salaries and cost of living between Norway and Sweden is different enough that it doesn't make sense to talk about them is a unified block.
Did you leave NYC and Boston just completely out of your calculations?
NYC and Boston are unique in their institutions and history, giving them enough momentum to stick around as desirable destinations despite the weather. And NYC isn’t that bad cold-wise.
Next question: why do Atlanta and Los Angeles have such horrible traffic?
Big and spacious apartments for $1000/mo or less. Fibre @ 40mbps for $100/mo or thereabouts. A country that has both tropical and Mediterranean climates (think of the fruit and veggies!) with beautiful nature (esp. CT where it's integrated with the city).
Eat out every night in style at prices cheaper than a European corner cafe. In my experience EU food is overrated and expensive. Have been to America many years ago an all I can remember is that people and portions are big!
Yes, there's crime. Happy to answer any questions.
There are very few tech meetups and general opportunity for intellectualism/tech in Durban. Shoutout here to OpenDataDurban and Code4SA! I'd love for you to correct me, though. And if you're in Durban, maybe we can get a coffee? hnusername@gmail.com
That being said Durban is really cheap and has the best beaches in the world!
A really great community, also the look for the #tech-for-good channel which is in conjunction with Codebridge SA is a really great resource.
But otherwise, in terms of weather - you can't beat it.
And yes... I think this place is kinda giving me "island syndrome"... That's why I need to get out of this place for a bit. haha
The traffic is horrendous too.
Traffic is also basically non existent if you have lived in any other major city in the world. Like 15-30mins max in peak times and the max commute is 15mins anyways to get from most places to anywhere else.
Granted private drivers aren't always a thing — but certainly driving from safe place to safe place is — whether it's driving yourself, being driven by family, or by a driver.
Re: commute time, was more in context of this thread, where one would be more likely to live in {Glenwood, Umhlanga, Westville, Morningside, Etc.}.
Durban isn’t the best, but there’s a good early morning beach culture and a cheap standard of living. Owning your own free standing property is relatively cheap by international standards and you can get one in a new secure gated estate on a golf course which you have no reason to ever leave if one of the old English/Dutch mansions doesn’t suit you ;)
But on the bright side, waking up with a gorgeous view over a river and the ocean every morning, nice and quiet does a lot of good mentally, especially having lived in one of the largest cities in the world for 5 years prior.
And yes, there's crime. Gotta activate the alarm system at night.
I have never been hijacked, robot or otherwise. The worst that happened to me was getting mugged in a dark alley around 7pm in Cape Town. Rely shouldn't have been walking around that neighbourhood well-dressed.
In general I leave my laptop in the trunk and ladies leave their bags there too. The most common form of traffic light theft is "smash and grab" which is entirely mitigated by getting the right kind of windows and not leaving your stuff on the seat/where it's visible.
In ZA 80% of the crime is committed against poor people, which really sucks but which realistically means that only 20% of the crime stats actually would apply to the affluent/expats. Ultimately you need to be a little more vigilant and aware, but not much more than you would be in any major city.
That's quite a statement that the experience of waiting at a stoplight would be improved by investing in special windows for your car. Does this to all of ZA or just Cape Town?
I would recommend this to anyone driving in South Africa. I’ve never been smash and grabbed because I generally pay attention to anyone approaching my car and try to make eye contact. Usually people are zoning out on their phone or whatever and make easy targets.
From experience (several yrs ago), you keep a gun in your lap when you drive the car. All the time.
I’m a South African and out of all my friends and family only one carries a gun and never in his lap.
In terms of my personal experiences with crime I was mugged once when I was a teenager, and had a friend killed when he tried to stop a mugging. But neither have made me want to leave, the murder made me consider it, but this is still my home, and once you experience a Cape Town summer you'll understand why so many people come for a few weeks and end up staying a few years...
In terms of crime in Joburg, that's a whole other ball game. It can be wild up there, and for that reason I wouldn't move there. Although the pay is far better than Cape Town, it's nowhere near as idyllic place to live as Cape Town is.
But.
The fear of being mugged or shot at always lingered - always. When you sleep, when you drive, when you go for a jog. We stayed in one of the expensive parts of Joburg (Sandhurst / Hyde Park) and still that did not help feel secure. Next door neighbors got shot at. The neighbors on the other side got their gate rammed in and plundered.
Our company refused to give us our rental allowance if the property did not have 24/7 surveillance including armed guards.
We did not mind losing our possessions, but a break in would have affected my wife for life. As sad as we were to leave Joburg, and South Africa in general, we were happy we left safe.
Visas they will be different for wach person but for most people but if you're not under 30 and not from a western country it is a hassle
Jobs : a lot of jobs require German and the ones that don't you'd face more fierce competition which drives down the wages considerably.
Wages: on average is lower by 20-30 percent than Toronto, 50-60 percent than sf again taking these numbers out of my ass but you get the gist. Higher end more senior jobs pay even less.
Benefits and holidays: significantly better than NA you get like 30 holidays in Bavaria last time I checked
Overall if you don't have a big friend group/ family it's worth the move in my opinion the lifestyle is much more sustainable.
It can be hard to swallow at first, but when you account for lower rent, much cheaper health insurance, and far more vacation days (~20-24 by law - and no one actually expects you to be available) along with safer cities with generally higher quality of life, in my opinion it ends up being a very, very good trade off.
I moved to Amsterdam some years back (and have worked for a Berlin based company) and don't know if I could ever move back to the states.
Also, at least in the cities, everyone will be fluent in English.
If you pick city other than Amsterdam, or are willing to have a 45 min+ commute, rents should still be reasonable.
Also the rights point you bring up is pretty key, the amount of protections, safety net, and rights you get as an employee in Europe makes it so that needing to save copious amount of money in case things go sideways is not a thing.
Mentioning here that startups are not really obsessed by technology, at least most of them. There is this a weird mindset going around I think that technology is a 2nd class citizen. But it is depending on the startup I guess.
To get into one of the bigger companies like Zalando, contentful, N26, GetYourGuide, Klarna, Auto1, GoEuro, DeliveryHero, HelloFresh or SumUp takes more work and experience but it's completely doable. I am now at one of the companies above after 1.5 years of company experience.
Madison benefits from having University of Wisconsin campus. It is also the capital of Wisconsin. While being around the same size as a flagship state school "college-town," it retains its own identity and culture (you never feel like the city revolves around the university). I've heard many people compare Madison to Austin, TX. UW-Madison has one of the oldest computer science departments in the US--high ranking department. Extremely bike friendly town. Winters are LONG; I suspect the cold keeps the city population a manageable size.
St. Louis is a mid-sized city. It has all the cultural amenities you'd expect from a big city (airport, food, arts, parks, etc), without the traffic or sprawl, and at a fraction of the cost. Wash U is the top academic center in the area. It's not a great city to visit as a tourist, but it's a fantastic city to live in, especially for the frugal-minded. Summers are hot and humid.
Manhattan, KS has a big university in a small town. When I lived there, it had intellectual things like used bookstores and an incredible local zoo, stuff you don't typically see in small towns. But it is also an Ag college. Probably not really what a techie from the Bay Area is seeking, though I loved it to pieces when I was there (other than the ragweed, so you couldn't make me go back at gunpoint).
When I applied for an internship with a National Lab in Washington State hoping to get back to the Tri-cities, I interviewed for a position in a satellite office in Sequim. They do marine biology type stuff there because of the unique marine ecology right there.
Port Aransas, TX also has marine research stuff due to unique marine ecology. It's a town of under 4000 population year-round, but snow birds and tourism swell the population to up to 60k at times, so it actually has a grocery store, something you don't normally see in such a small town.
I considered moving to Idaho Falls, ID in part because it has a National Lab, so it likely has a serious intellectual environment even though it's just 60k people and very affordable.
So, you might want to flesh out some details concerning what exactly you are hoping to find. Because I'm guessing you don't really want to move someplace like Port Aransas, though I'm cool with tiny little places with an enclave of uber-geeks.
You can live comfortably on 1300 EUR/month. (Average salary is 1000 EUR, but probably a bit higher in Vilnius). To evaluate visit first in winter because it’s the worst time.
(For anyone unaware like me)
Super cheap 1-gig internet, super cheap unlimited data mobile LTE / 5G, great food and people. Accommodation is somewhat average, 500-600 euros for a flat in the city centre on average.
I would personally suggest Cape Town, South Africa, if you're a bit adventurous. Lovely weather, good people, cheap, excellent food. It's a bit out of the way (10h flying to Europe, more to US), but same timezone as Europe. English is the main language. Moved here 8 years ago and no regrets
Most folks in the city speaks English in the city, so you wont have issues getting around.
There is a growing tech community here as well with a some notable startups/companies.
Cost of living wise, magnitude lower than neighboring Singapore, as such a good consideration
House prices - Not according to https://www.propertyguru.com.my, I looked up Cyberjaya as an example (~15mins on train to KL sentral) and freehold $120,000usd for a 4bedroom/2bathroom place, 1 bedroom condo for much less. That would buy you half a car parking place in Hong Kong (on leasehold no less). Regardless you'd just rent anyway, at least for first few years, $300-$400pm for a nice serviced condo with pool/gym. No point buying unless you eventually get a permanent residence.
English language - I never had a problem with English in KL or Penang or even Alor Setar, except maybe one of the old roadside tea vendors, but that's probably my northern accent. It might not be Singapore or HKG level but it aint significantly off.
edit: fix abbr
I’m there a few times / year and never had a problem. Maybe if you rely on some coffee shops WiFi it could be a problem but that’s a general problem. Internet is really cheap too if you get a SIM card.
Honestly, KL/Klang Valley is such a gem, cost of living is super low for USD folks. Met many Americans who work on their startup/product here. Your runway extends by 4x thanks to currency exchange.
A huge number of co-working spaces around. Gyms too.
Tomsk is much smaller than Novosibirsk, walkable almost, famous for its +100 years wooden houses (https://www.tripsavvy.com/tomsk-the-hidden-russia-1502232). Khodorkovsky said it's his favorite Russian city. It has six universities and it's considered "the Boston" of Russia, not far, 250km, from Novosibirk.
There is also a Akademgorodok (translated: "Academic-city"), a city district of Tomsk with both a (nice) residential area and a zone with tech companies that get tax cuts. Some firms there exist for many, +20 years, and work on deep tech, like audio and video codecs: https://www.elecard.com/
There are also newly founded Ethereum/crytpo-companies located there; one I met personally rents a villa full of coders: https://playmarket.io
Also, Tomsk has quite a lot of bars and places to spend time. Although it can be -40°C in winter, it's very dry and you get by easily with good clothes. (-18°C in St. Petersburg feels colder due to the humidity)
The good thing about places like Siberia is that many people who live there are offspring of folk who opposed the Zar or the communists and have a non-conformist attitude. People there try to be as little dependent on Moscow as possible which is often hard to do.
I've not been anywhere else that has the density of interesting people doing interesting stuff. London is not far if you need to break the bubble (and Stansted Airport even closer).
Downsides: salaries are generally lower than SV (esp for technical work), Brexit uncertainty, weather is fairly average, limited outdoor sport options (other than running, road cycling, rowing)
For those looking to spend though: Cambridge has a cool tech/startup scene, almost everyone bikes and there's no cars in the city center. It's a fairly small city, very green, both quiet and lively.
And it's cheap. Really cheap. For 200$ you can get an excellent apartment in prime locations in the city itself. You daily food expenses won't be anymore than 10$ at the most.
I am a software engineer, I live here and I assure that I don't work in a consulting company. A lot of my friends actually don't. Infosys and TCS may be big but they are not the only companies in here, you know. It's like saying there no companies in SV other that social media empires.
> What are the excellenet Universities in Pune? Universiy of Pune? Symbiosis? They may not be IIT's or MIT's but they are better than a lot of other universities in India and in Asia. Plus you have lot of other institues such as FTII and a lot of government/military institutes. Certainly a better intellectual environment than other places in Asia.
No offense but it looks like your knowledge of Pune comes from a outdated source or a glance over a google search.
> Universiy of Pune? Symbiosis? They may not be IIT's or MIT's but they are better than a lot of other universities in India and in Asia
Even students in India won't go there until they can't make it to the top 20 - 25 Universities in India. Dude he lives in SFO which is the home of Stanford and University of California and has more nobel laurates than rest of Asia combined.
Come on man. I get you like Pune. But this is just a terrible advice. Pune doesn't have anything to justify a person moving all the way from SFO especially if they are a foreigner.
You should take a look into this blog post https://medium.com/@oliviagoldstein/a-year-in-india-told-by-....
Although Pune has the highest number of expats of any city in India, and is generally safe/accepting of expat men and women. (Although overall India is quite unsafe for women and I agree with you that anyone who wants to relocate to India should first spend a nice long holiday/internship here)
You should take a look into this blog post https://medium.com/@oliviagoldstein/a-year-in-india-told-by-...
However, that said, there's no intellectual energy. The city is more like a laid-back town. Tech scene also doesn't compare to Bangalore.
I have collected 1,000+ of the biggest cities and am adding another 1,500 now. Let me know what you think!
- Pieter
Lifestyles vary so your own experience can be subjective.
What data points specifically did you disagree with? I’m happy to confirm the data points and show sources.
I use data sets to seed with and then crowdsourced edits by site users to add to the data.
There are many other cities all over Central and Eastern Europe like this. Other options are Novi Sad in Serbia, Szeged in Hungary, Brno in Czech Republic (the major tech hub), Timisoara in Romania (same), Lviv in Ukraine, Krakow in Poland, Tartu in Estonia.
Has a growing tech scene, English is spoken everywhere, a couple of good universities, surpringly affordable cost of living, winters are fairly mild (but long). Definitely has a healthy intellectual atmosphere, with lots of independent study groups/classes. A few hours from Copenhagen, Stockholm, and Oslo. Probably the most "livable" city I can imagine.
Finding rental housing is a real pain, but not because of cost.
Also worth looking at: Ghent, Utrecht, Thessaloniki.
I rented a beautiful studio with a view of the Doi Suthep (mountain bordering the city) for $100 USD/month last winter. Since Buddhism reigns there are loads of monks, which means vegetarian fare is easy to come by, and is similarly cheap (anywhere from $1 to $5 for a meal). Everyone eats out, it's really hard not to meet people.
Internet is very fast (up to 500mb/sec) and power is stable (no power cuts in 3 months).
Of course the timezone difference is substantial if your employer is USA based, but if you can make that work Chiang Mai is hard to beat.
Rinse, repeat.
You can get a business visa or a social visa (volunteer work) to avoid the hassle of border runs, but most just go with a tourist visa and periodically leave/take a break from Thailand.
If you're looking for more of an adventure I would highly recommend Tbilisi, Georgia (ie, the country not the US State). Relatively affordable, great food, culture encourages intellectual pursuits, beautiful country.
Everyone speaks English, pay is good, and work-life balance makes a lot of difference.
Commutes are generally short, you get ~26 paid holidays per year (sick leave is separate from that)...
Pay is of course lower than in the Bay area.
Culture wise it's sometimes hard to make friends with the Dutch. It depends on how you spend your spare time. Playing a sport, going to parties, going to group lessons in a gym, etc. is essential to make Dutch friends later in life.
In particular, the Schiphol airport also has a major train station; it's very close to Amsterdam and Haarlem, but suitable for most of western Netherlands.
You can also live cheaply in South Europe but the intellectual atmosphere is not the same. This area is good for summer hollydays.
The only problem, in both areas, might be the language. English is enough to survive but maybe not enough to thrive.
If I see a comment further down doing that I might downvote it. :)
There's a technical hub in the area and multiple universities, along with a lot of English-speaking expats. The weather is amazing and the food is fantastic.
I'm from the SF Bay Area and I live here now. Best decision ever.
I completely agree that the night life and cultural scene is far better in student cities such as Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes, Montpellier etc
I feel like the last 5 years have been good for the city, it has seen a lot of new restaurants and bars. Also, there are now real chinese restaurants which blows my mind.
It's still pretty hard to find a bar with people during the week though, unless you're going to the vieux Lyon but then it's not that big either.
Check Bordeaux, Montpellier, Toulouse, Lille, Strasbourg, Rennes, etc. They have a way more vibrant life and way more students. Restaurants are not that great in Lyon either compared to the rest of France I find.
Columbus, OH. Cheap, Ohio State is right there. Get a huge house on a lake for $350K. Pursue your intellect all you want.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
Lots of stuff here to do and see, there are many expats all over the city. English speaking is low among Hungarians (¬20%), but in the inner city you won't have a problem with it.
I'd try a couple of cities for a few weeks then decide, Prague is also very beautiful, but as others suggested Berlin rocks too.
And it effects people pretty badly, most of them are negative and sour. Also, intellectually it is way behind Western Europe.
Source: I lived in that city for 15 years, family is still living there.
It isn't dirt cheap though. A house in a nice part of Santiago will cost you around 300-500k (USD).
[1]: http://www.lun.com/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?dt=2018-09-25&NewsI...
Also, Berlin fits your criteria.
If you just want somewhere cheap try Thailand. Many coworking spaces, but harder to find a startup community. The language barrier won't be a problem because of tourism and the polite culture.
- low cost of living
- 20+ universities
- city successfully transformed from industrial to knowledge center
- young talented workforce - constant influx of young people
- CMU: top notch research university
- UPitt: UPMC - top medical school & center
- Tech companies always looking for a foothold there: Intel, Microsoft, Uber
- Passionate sports fans: Steelers, Penguins... maybe Pirates
- Cheap housing: you can buy entire homes for <$50k (maybe needs some capital improvements)
- Eclectic mix of restaurants (foreign cuisine), bars and decent nightlife
* There are about 40k permanent residents, plus 40k students. It grows to as much as 200k on football weekends, and has the infrastructure to handle that (highways, etc).
* My current rent is $625 per month, utilities included, for a 2 bedroom in the country (10 minutes from Wegmans).
* The university library is open 24/7 when school is in session (with reduced hours otherwise). Any resident of Pennsylvania can request a borrower's card, and anyone can use the common spaces.
* The university hosts global cultural events, like the Cuban National Orchestra and Danish String Quartet.
Pennsylvanians believe strongly in independence, which can be both good and bad. The mountain folk can be a bit uncivilized, but if you want room to think for yourself without the cost and congestion of a major city, it doesn't get much better.
In any case you may consider enrolling in some kind of academic research program. Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly tough and lonely.
They’re really not far off London prices, and because they’re in the UK, the weather sucks
"Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly tough and lonely."
Yes.
Pros: Excellent quality of life (for your demographic). Beautiful outdoors, quick to get around. Cheap compared to SF, NYC, LDN, AMS, BLN. Great food scene. Not oversubscribed like SF, LDN etc. You can usually just walk into a restaurant. Good, fun people.
Cons: Rand (ZAR) is a weak and volatile currency. Geographically out of the way. Tech scene/talent is a bit small IMO (contrary to the local opinion) but AWS EC2 also has a development office out there so that might be of interest.
Overall, Cape Town is a great place to live. Beautiful, cheap and you will find you have plenty of time to pursue intellectual interests. I really miss the lifestyle.
If you plan on commercializing those pursuits, talk to a lawyer before signing a contract. Most states/companies will give full ownership of all your work even on your own time to the company. States like California are more protecting of employee off time work but they still lean towards employers if your work "relates" towards your employer which for the top paying companies like Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft is practically everything so you can still be screwed.
The locals don’t really speak english though...
I believe Google also have an office here in Aabogade.
I'm looking to move, find work or work remotely in Aarhus but Brexit has thrown a spanner in the works.
Any hints to give me a head start on exploring the startup community here?
Copenhagen is awesome tho (but rather expensive); and in provincial towns the life is very quiet, perfect for families.
Wonderful schools, INCREDIBLY safe by any measure in the entire world, and lots of professors and engineer-types who have migrated there and found a home over all these years.
Now, the inevitable downside is that other than Moscow ID (~20k pop, another college town but with a little bit more "community") just over the border, there is nothing nearby. No, really, nothing. The few towns that are smattered about are 1000 people or less. The closest city is Spokane (~150k-ish pop?) and Spokane frankly sucks. Seattle is 5 hours away. If this doesn't bother you, and some snow and ice in the winter is fine, it's a good fit. Of course there is the lowest possible likelihood of finding a local job in software, but it is possible and I'm guessing from your post that this isn't a concern.
But yeah, I would 100% describe it as a low-cost place with a strong intellectual atmosphere.
Canberra is a small city in Australia. Designed as the nations capital it has a number of unusual characteristics such as strong town planning from its inception, high average income, low unemployment and good traffic. It is socially progressive compared to Australia and environmentally conscious.
60% of Canberra's population above 35 have at least one degree. The city has multiple significant universities, including the Australian National University - commonly ranked the best in Australia and 20th in the world by the QS rankings. The city has to actively work to recruit sufficient tradespeople.
The city is intermixed with the environment. It follows a multiple city center design which means you can be traveling down the highway in the middle of the city and not be able to see any buildings. There is considerable natural parkland throughout the city. Further afield it is two hours to the snow fields and two hours to the beach towns.
Living costs are reasonable, significantly less than the bay area, but not as low as a rural town. Canberra has ranked well in world livability reports in recent years. Being a small city there is also more choice in the costs incurred, living in the outer suburbs or outside the city significantly reduces rent but is still a very reasonable commute.
The tech industry is small but highly skilled and well paid. Most work is focused around government and military, through direct employment and service providers. Security and cloud migration work is in particular demand at the moment. The open source community is also strongly represented with groups such as IBM's OzLabs.
Not a very good place to "live" - the traffic is _insane_, and you have to deal with us Indians.
But on the plus side, a dollar goes a long long way in India. Bangalore is on the expensive side for Indians. To put things into perspective, a decent dev job in India gets you 1300$ per month after taxes and comfortably puts you in the upper middle class. Monthly rent for a 3BHK apartment at a good location will be around 500-600$. So if you're planning to live off your savings, Bangalore is going to be cheap for you.
The weather is great.
The city is dubbed as the silicon valley of India, so lots of nerds, startups, and hackathons. But if you're into the more academic sort of intellectual pursuits, India is generally not the place for that.
Most of the people you want to interact with would speak English. Urban Bangalore is anglicized. But any "locals" you hire for help (yes, you will be able to afford a house help) will definitely not speak English.
On the other side, living in India would let you travel a lot. Just like Europe, the language and culture change every 300-400 km.
I can't stress enough how cheap India is going to be for you. However, keep in mind that everything else in the country is abysmal.
_If you can survive the winter_
- It's college town with good departments (talks and other activities).
- Decent startup scene
- Some research orgs exist (NCAR/NREL)
- Local incubator
- Options to pursue an active life
Boulder is the most frustrating and disappointing place I’ve lived. I tried so many different things to make friends, date, build community, or simply have a good night out but just couldn’t make it work there. For a place with such a good reputation around the western US, it was such a disaster for me.
Moving to Denver felt like waking up after a long strange dream. I organized a river float trip on the first weekend (via meetup, couchsurfing, and gociety) and immediately had friends to hang out with in Denver (people who actually wanted to hang! Which I could not find in Boulder). I’d go out to shows, chat up the occasional lady and have a date the next week. I’d go out by myself and often strike up conversations with friendly strangers. The Denver Cruiser ride was a ton of fun. I can see why so many young Americans are moving there.
Boulder is really good for young attractive college students and families who have old wealth or a couple exits to be able to afford property.
The OP question is good intellectual environment...I highly recommend you don't go to Boulder.
edit: Boulder is really beautiful and amazing for biking. But I found the people really private/cliquey and a strange mix of wealthy/snobby and provincial.
On the flipside, there is nothing intellectual about Denver..... great people, love the outdoors, but having intellectual conversations not involving Broncos or Rockies doesn't happen.
It's central in Europe, you could replace Croatia with Slovenia if you wanted.
It's still relatively cheap compared to the rest of the EU.
There's a budding IT field and if you stick to the major cities you'll even find a sub-culture of makers and hackers.
There might be better options out there but I had to mention it since I'm from there.
There’s a solid tech nexus forming whose geographic center is becoming a town between Salt Lake City and Provo called Lehi. Tons of co-working spaces. It’s one of only 4 states in the nation where computer software developer is the most common job https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-... it, at the very least, has a sizeable workforce that depend on their ability to sling code to make a living.
I’ve heard a lot of heresay, from people who’d know, about how much Northern Utah is resembling the appearance of SV from some decades back during its ascent.
It's not as cheap as moving to a 3rd world country or some random places in the States or Canada, but it's fairly reasonable, tons of smart people and activity and you are within a 1.5hr driving radius of Toronto, Niagara Falls, Hamilton, London, Guelph and most of the big SW Ontario places. Cheap flights to go anywhere in the world often popup from Toronto or Hamilton, so that's a bonus if you like to travel.
Again, this isn't comparable to moving to Portugal or the like, which is an awesome place by the way, but if you want Canada, it's a good choice for getting a lot without the prices of Toronto, which is one of the top 6 most expensive cities in the world.
Yes, there's another Portland out there and it hits way above it's weight. If you are an outdoorsy person who likes to nerd, live well and actually have a pay check left over - I strongly recommend a visit out here. In my early 30's and spent my 20's living in Boston, London and NYC.
I'd need a salary of +$500K to ever consider leaving Portland.
- Brighton, UK: awesome music scene, lot of activities, chill atmosfere. Good connection to London (< 1 hour by train) if you need to do networking. Great for freelancers, not so many tech jobs. It is also quite expensive compared to other places on list.
- Brno, Czech Republic: my hometown and place where I decided to settle down after years of traveling. University city, great place for gastronomy, bar scene and coffee. Very cheap: you can live very confortably for 1200 USD/month. Good place when you want to hangout and when you earn money remote. Close to Vienna or Prague.
- Cluj, Romania: a bit more off the beaten path feel. A bit run down, but having good youngful atmosfere. It is very cheap, good food, easy to meet new people and find friends. English is widely spoken among young people.
Brighton for me was more about open mic events, lots of concerts, hikes in nature, coffee shops and work. I barely seen any tourists.
[SALARIES] developers earn from 1500 EUR to 5000 EUR (after taxes)
[RENT] for 1 bedroom appt: ~300-400 EUR (near the city center)
[LANGUAGE] 80% of people you'll ever meet speak good english.
[ENTARTAINMENT] Hundreds of bars, cafes and theatres. Events, meetups, festivals and concerts happening non stop.
[COMMUTING] If you live on one of the main subway lines (highly likey), it will probably take you less than 15-20 minutes to reach the center.
[LOCATION] Mountains at 2 hours (train or car), seaside at 2.5 hours.
+ there are cheap flights to any part of Europe (2-3 hours) for ~100 EUR or less.
BAD SIDE: noisy, crowded and sometimes kind of stressful - but all of these can be managed by travelling around the country, which is beautiful (lots of mountains, rivers, lakes, interesting cities to visit..)
PS: I'm born and raised here, lived in Paris and worked from other big cities. Bucharest is still the best place for me when I factor in (income, prices, lifestyle).
Plus if anyone moves to Romania, I think they're expecting it to be a developing country.
I moved from my million person metropolitan area to Sundsvall, Sweden and it is very cheap (I pay about €600 for a two bedroom apartment in the absolute center of the city, I have no need for a car when it comes to day-to-day transportation) and the intellectual community is very vibrant here with meet-ups for software engineering and machine learning, as well as a maker space run by people with degrees in electrical engineering.
Only problem? You climb in salary by switching jobs and small places are often dominated by a few players when it comes to tech. But, for people who are fine not climbing as fast as in a big city I can definitely recommend it.
Vibrant city, lots of tech and a good aviation engineering scene (Airbus), lovely countryside around. Reasonably affordable (compared to London). Good communication links to the rest of the UK and Europe (International Airport - London under 2 hrs by trains every 30 mins). Downside - traffic is hideous.
Bangkok or KL for Asia.
Austin for the US.
Two things I do, occasionally stay in hostels to meet people (hit and miss) and going to tech-related meetup.com and eventbrite.com events in Bangkok and Chiang Mai (80-90%+ of my friends in Thailand were met this way)
>high literacy
where literacy is defined as the ability to write my own name.
One would find a better-developed tech scene in Delhi/NCR and Bengaluru, but those aren't very nice places to live for different reasons. Kerala works only if the OP becomes a digital nomad and works remote.
Then there's also the problem of people going on strike whenever they like - flavour of the month types. When I went on a solo trip, they decided to strike due to the rise in fuel prices. Causes a lot of disruption in day-to-day activities. I'm guessing this is because of the influence of the communist party.
There are bummers about NM, but it’s possible to mitigate them if you go in aware.
Good intellectual crowd. Home to quite a few top engineering institutions. Inflated with software developing people and companies, with strong focus on making world-class products. I work for one such company, Zoho. Cheap living costs, compared to other software hubs (say, Bangalore) of India and definitely most of abroad. Decent English speaking crowd.
Almost checks out all the items in your list.
Cons: Living standards is a bit behind the curve, if you are from say London, Bay Area, Berlin, Singapore or such. Road traffic and such very-indian-problems will either excite you or bite you, subject to the person.
Even if you don't plan on living here, do visit Chennai sometime. You might even decide to stay back ;)
Pros
- U$D goes a long way, specially now after the latest devaluation, and if your income is in dollars, you are mostly not affected by inflation.
- Big English speaking crowd in Buenos Aires in particular.
- Intellectual community: there is a good ecosystem of startups at this moment plus one of the biggest universities in South America: Universidad de Buenos Aires
- It's easy to establish yourself legally: is quite easy to get your temporary resident status, just do the paperwork and you are set.
- a bunch of pluses: quite cosmopolitan city with a lot of cultural activities, lots of diversity.
- the food :P
Cons
- economic crisis: actually, this could be a pro if you have U$D, we locals are used to this kinda of stuff but for some people this can be a bit scary.
- Buenos Aires is a big city and can be a bit chaotic.
Easy to choose between country, town or city.
I know what you may be thinking, but bare with me.
Guadalajara has one of the best "tech scenes" in Latin America, with lots of government subsidies and affordable talent that attract foreign tech giants.
Just to give you some examples: Intel, HP, Oracle, and IBM all have major R&D and programming facilities in Guadalajara. Amazon also recently set up its own R&D facility in town. Continental Tires produces around 20 patents a year from its local research facility (most of them related to software and electronics used in the car industry).
But that's not it, there are lots of small-to-medium sized local startups in Guadalajara. The scene has demonstrated that creativity and innovation are something you can always find around the corner.
I come from Academia and I can tell you that in Guadalajara you can find some of the best Science Research centers in the country: CINVESTAV Guadalajara, CIATEJ, and the Universidad de Guadalajara all have top-notch researchers in tech related fields ranging from Biotech to pure Computer Science.
Talking about the city itself, Guadalajara, unlike Mexico City, has just the right size. One of the biggest cities in the country but small enough to move around without much hassle. Geographically privileged, Guadalajara lays in the middle of the country, a few hours away from beautiful and warm beaches from the Pacific Ocean and near from just about everywhere in Mexico. You'll find lots of stuff to do.
Have I mentioned the cost of living and the work-life-balance? Living in Guadalajara is cheap; you can easily find great places to rent, the food scene is amazing (and surprisingly cheap), great craft beer, great food from all around the world, and a really vibrant cultural and art scene. You'll have a good time.
A lot of people in Guadalajara talk English, and there's a big expat community in the city and in the towns surrounding the city.
I really believe that, if you are looking for living on the cheap and have a place to have good discussions about tech, academia, science and more, Guadalajara should be on your list.
+ Reasonable cost of living (compared to the median salary of a SE) if you don't eat out much.
+ Rents haven't sky rocketed yet.
+ Thriving tech eco system/community.
+ You can get by on English. Though learning Hindi (for rest of India), and Kannada (for Bangalore) is highly recommended :-)
+ Good food and pub scene. In fact Bangalore is known as the pub capital of India! Decent night life too.
+ Lots of weekend getaway places. Himalayas is basically ~3hrs away by flight that costs ~70USD.
- Pollution, bad physical infrastructure (road, clean drinking water etc.,) that's getting worse. Owning a 4-wheeler doesn't make sense anymore. It's not needed anyway.
- Bad air connectivity to USA. Bangalore isn't a hub.
"Intellectual atmosphere" is a meaningless buzzword. If you're looking for high-earning academics to hang out with you've gotta live in an expensive city near a university. If you mean you like a hipster-y atmosphere, you'll find such people nearly everywhere if you go looking for them.
The tech scene is great, loads of work at the moment (great day rates), lots of meetups and startups, 2 Universities, property is cheap and I'll buy you a pint!
Good food, too, and, despite being land-locked, lots of water activities, even within the cities (swimming beaches, boating, etc.)
Nigeria is going to be interesting and is full of independent thinkers. And I've heard good things about Panama City. But both possibly pricey. Belfast is way cheap.
It's a beautiful, very cheap city. There is fiber internet and there are universities here. A good intellectual atomosphere? Hard to say; there are intelligent people around and you can become friends.
I am here specifically to focus on intellectual pursuits while living cheaply. Latin America in general is wonderful for that.
While many consider Switzerland expensive, once you compute how long you have to work for the coffee it may no longer sound that expensive.
However some quick personal recommendations for you.. I've been where you are :)
ASIA
- Bali, Indonesia (beach, hippie style) - Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (IMO, South East Asia's NYC) - Chiang Mai, Thailand (nomad hotspot, jungles) - Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam (city, cheap everything)
EUROPE
- Lisbon or Porto, Portugal (beautiful places, beaches not far away) - Barcelona, Spain (not so cheap anymore, city + beach) - Tallinn, Estonia
SOUTH AMERICA
- Medellin, Colombia - Buenos Aires, Argentina - Santiago, Chile
Hope that helps!
It's population is extremely white. "street music downtown" and "dozens of clubs and events" is a complete given in most major US cities and the only reason you would think that is special is if you have never left the midwest.
The city is ugly and has literally no public transportation. It is extremely car-centric and you will be constantly battling traffic if you are crazy enough to bike. ( People will be aggressive and not respect you )
It's culture reflects the rural trump-land small towns that surround it. Good old boys People walking around in full camo after going hunting over the weekend.
edit:
Also: Iowa is ugly and there is nothing to do there. You can find somewhere cheap in Colorado or Oregon and have the option to go hiking and skiing.
In Iowa, you have absolutely BRUTAL winters and nothing to do outside the entire year anywyay. Unless you find walking next to high-ways flanked by corn-fields with no sidewalk a great natural experience.
And yes its a mixture of cultures; that's kind of the point. You can run to Silicon Valley and hide among your own brogrammer tribe, or you can go somewhere and meet different people
Not everybody likes all these things; some folks want only the bright lights and noise. But I add my 2 cents to round out the discussion.
https://beta.observablehq.com/@jake-low/how-well-does-popula...
There's a decent tech scene in both Bath/Bristol, and London is only 90 minutes away by train. Fire me a message if you have any questions.
You've got Ann Arbor and UMich a few minutes away, Wayne State in midtown, a thriving tech and art scene, all the music you can imagine, and cheap, cheap cost of living.
We do call soda "pop" though, so the language issues might be a little weird. ;)
Asia: Bangkok, ChiangMai, Taiwan, Shanghai, Beijing, Hanoi.
Europe: Lisbon, Madrid, Milan, Bordeaux, Montpellier, Berlin, Varsaw
Not sorted
[0] https://nomadlist.com/bordeaux [1] https://nomadlist.com/montpellier
Lots of expats from all over the world, vibrant ever growing tech scene.
Cheap 1-2hr flights to other European destinations.
Pros. Internet - 1 Gbps internet at ~20$ a month
Lots of great colleges - IIT D, JNU, AIIMS, DCE Housing - You can get a 2500ft 3BHK high rise condo in gurgaon for ~800$/month. With that you'll get a jacuzzi, modular kitchen, round the clock security, pool , gym etc.
Labour is cheap - Maids which do cleaning, laundry and cooking cost ~150$/month. Drivers cost around 300 . You really don't have to do chores
Great food - Everything is app based anyway, so you can get good quality pasta/salad home delivered to your place at 3AM for less than 10 dollars.
Good Roads - Unlike some cities in India, the NCR region is connected by highways since it's made up of multiple states. Though if you have got friends in another part of town, it can mean a commute of upto 70 kms. It has a population of 24 million.
Great quality weed - weed is virtually legal and will set you back by ~10$/quarter, for ~70$ you can get 10gms of 30-60%THC concentrate ( hashish). Lots of microbreweries in gurgaon too.
Cons
Pollution - It can get a bit bad in winter, but you can install airpurifiers in your car and home to offset most of the effects.
I personally like the weathers in Delhi , there is a good variety of seasons in Delhi. Winters are my favourite part of Delhi weather. Some people like changing seasons and some people like a particular weather.
The safety aspect is a bit blown out of proportion tbh. Statistically Delhi doesn't fare any worse than any modern city. United States has above 5x the number of reported rapes compared to India even though it has a much lesser population.
Well OP was looking for something out of SFO, salaries in europe are pretty much comparable to what you'd get in top tier companies in India. SFO is hard to beat even within the US itself. But the high cost of living in SFO means that you can easily save more while working in India while leading a compareable(if not better) life.
> Well OP was looking for something out of SFO, salaries in europe are pretty much comparable to what you'd get in top tier companies in India.
Its defintely not comparable. Almost every beginner software engineers in Europe makes $60K easily. How many beginner Software Engineers in India make that? Lol. AFter working for some time in India and moving back in USA he would have peanuts as savings.
> But the high cost of living in SFO means that you can easily save more while working in India while leading a comparable(if not better) life.
I dont think Software Engineers in Delhi have a better quality of life than Engineers in SFO. Thats the reason why people from India do masters in USA and not the opposite. India is nowhere top in quality of life and happiness index.
It's not uncommon to make $60k if you are from a top tier college and in a top tier company. There are so many software engineers that you get it across the payscale. Uber, Directi, Google, Rivigo etc all pay quite a lot. >Its defintely not comparable. Almost every beginner software engineers in Europe makes $60K easily
Again it's relative, for the average person yes it's lower. But if you are in the top tier ( which an engineer from SF is ), then they would be in the top 1% of earners in the city which allows them to live a lot better. How many people in SF do you know who live alone in a high rise 3BHK floor, have a maid+driver and can get food delivered at 3AM? There are also way more good looking women in Delhi than SFO ;) >I dont think Software Engineers in Delhi have a better quality of life than Engineers in SFO.
How is a foreigner coming to Delhi for a few days going to have an idea of whether the crime is high or not?
> . Delhi has 24 million, SF isn't even 1 million. Ha ha.
Delhi having 24 million population is another reason why he should not move there. The place is overpopulated.
> The absolutely number of crime is always going to be higher, but as long as you consider the crime rate it's low.
Delhi has the highest crime rate across all Indian cities. Almost twice as that of Banglore and Mumbai.
> It's not uncommon to make $60k if you are from a top tier college and in a top tier company.
No company is paying beginners anywhere near that salary in India (Unless you work for some quants). I have friends in Uber, Flipkart, media.net, Codenation, Google, Nutanix and they don't make anywhere near to $60k in hand. Again I am talking about beginners with 1 2 years experience. But if you are in Europe you can make much more than that if you are beginer.
> How many people in SF do you know who live alone in a high rise 3BHK floor, have a maid+driver and can get food delivered at 3AM?
I am pretty sure the people in SFO dont want to move to India just because they want a maid and driver. I dont think most people even care. It has almost nothing to do with quality of living. The factors that matter like personal safety, health, public services, education, transportation, nightlife, networking, weather, air quality, happiness, female friendliness etc are terrible in Delhi compared to SFO.
Again I know that you are happy with Delhi. You are born and raised in India and adapted to the country. Its not the same for a person who was born and raised in west. They are used to a higher quality of life. Its would be obvious to you if you visit the states :)
Take a look at this
https://nomadlist.com/san-francisco https://nomadlist.com/delhi
>How is a foreigner coming to Delhi for a few days
A lot more cities in the world have higher population density than Delhi. Overpopulation isnt a bad thing
>Delhi having 24 million population
True not for beginners, but people reach there in 3-5 years.
>No company is paying beginners anywhere
This statement is loaded with quite a few assumptions. Healthcare in SF is overloaded and waiting periods for doctors and specialists can go into months. Delhi is actually famous for medidal tourism in the world. With the rising gun crime and culture personal safety is a problem in the US. Delhi has a much better metro than SF a few times ,I've been to US and it has a small trams. etc. >I am pretty sure the people in SFO
I have visited SF a couple of times and didn't enjoy it much. Stayed near fisherman's wharf for more than a couple of weeks. It was good and I would visit again though. >Its would be obvious to you if you visit the states :)
You're within what the eastern seaboard considers "A commute" of three major metropolitan areas: Jacksonville, Tampa, and Orlando.
It's about as far away from the ocean as you can get in Florida, which decreases the hurricane risk.
http://mcjoshi21.blogspot.com/2014/05/todays-subhashita.html
Maybe the people who are there don't want to tell others so no one else moves there because it's so great
What is a good way to find an apartment for a few weeks?
Just use AirBnB and see if the apartments offer a discount for a longer stay?
Or are there better ways?
I play with the idea to live in Lisbon and/or somewhere in Asia a few weeks during the coming months.
Let us know how it works out when you settle down somewhere, wherever that is.
People will say it’s expensive but it’s cheap relative to the Bay Area.
I say "here" but I'm typing this in SF...so I guess I mean "there".
- If you enjoy going out, like laidback attitude - Berlin. Not super cheap, but way cheaper than SF.
- If you like the sun, sea, surfing - Portugal.
- If you like outdoors, security, ecology, arts - Ljubljana (Slovenia).
I'm biased since I'm a Slovene, but work-life balance is insane in Slovenia, the environment is super clean, everything is super safe (as in no murders). If you're remoting you'll be earning top dollar, but even mediocre senior tech job will net you enough to support a family living in Ljubljana and live very comfortably (long vacations, travel, eating out, nice apartment)...
Good atmosphere, easy visa, government supportive for migrated ppl
Auckland is on two harbours, absolutely beautiful geography, but you'll need a car and it can be a congested, frustrating nightmare. Lots of smart people though, universities, cultural stuff etc. GREAT food. Seriously good - loads of Asian migration will do that.
Wellington is much smaller, also beautiful, but worse climate. Lots going on though, for a city of its size (150k cbd, 400k wider area). Is the capital, so combination of liberal arts educated public servants, HQ of Xero and centre of film industry (including Weta Digital), 2 universities both with strong creative schools, HQ of national ballet company, HQ of national orchestra and lots of other stuff makes it a pretty great city intellectually. Really cosmpolitan, also great food, but the asian food isn't as good as Auckland. Great local tech scene and lots of creative people.
Blue dot in Red Sea. Many many opportunities. Our pay if far better than Bay Area. Sr software here makes 130+ lead at 160+.
Entry level is 85
Here's a quick testament about the Philippines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-tKE812-ZY
Internet is OK at best. I have an internet line from three different providers, all three have been offline at the same time more than once, and speeds drop to dial-up or worse on my main line at least 2-3 times a month for hours at a time. I've observed this at multiple locations.
"Brown outs" are pretty common, get a UPS.
Good quality electronics and computer components can sometimes be tough to find but a quick trip to Singapore will sort that out.
Shipping can be a nightmare, I've waited months to receive packages in some cases.
Any involvement with any government run entity is a nightmare. I got a parking ticket because I accidentally left my motorbike in a non-parking space. I went to the office when it opened at 8AM to pay it. It took me 4 hours to pay the parking ticket.
Traffic is so insane and rules are so rarely enforced that I stopped riding my motorbike.
I'd suggest avoiding Manila, as all the Taxi drivers want to rip you off or haggle a fare with you instead of use the meter (same problem in Bangkok, Thailand). But there are plenty of cities in PH that don't suffer from that problem (Davao for example, is great).
Last but not least: Don't drink the water. Be careful where you eat. Food hygiene and quality standards might shock you.
But, that's about all the bad things I can come up with, and they're all manageable. The people are great, cost is low, and fly to nearby countries cheaply and quickly.
Internet?? Well yea! Depends on the area you're in. I have 50mbs on a fiber connection and no major problem so far. Except when I travel to nearby islands, then internet connection can be really bad.
As for the guy saying Porto is one of the cheapest cities in Europe…
WHAT?! It's €15 for a 'Francesinha', and this food is garbage anyway. There are much nicer places to go in Portugal where the prices and quality aren't ruined by tourism.
It's €15 for a 'Francesinha', and this food is garbage anyway.
If you consider it garbage, don't buy it. You absolutely do not have to pay €15 for a Francesinha in Porto, and there's a huge array of other options. Of course if you go to the most touristy places you'll end up paying touristy prices, but if you really think that this is the case throughout the entire city then you can't have looked around much.There are higher quality places like The Yeatman, but this is not somewhere the average tech worker can eat regularly.
[2] http://www.sustainable-communities.eu/postcapitalistcalafou/
More students per capita than anywhere (depending on how you define 'city' because of course Boston is a big one, but Mtl has 5 Unis right down town within a few Km of each other).
And 1/2 of the city is French, and it's like being in another country.
It has an intellectual/creative tradition from French culture, also, it's actually a global leader in AI, and not just one of those cities making pompous statements: UMtl has the largest AI research facility in North America, and $100M in spending announced, and ElementAI has raised hundreds of millions so this is no joke.
But the winters are very cold. And salaries lag. And taxes are high. Healthcare is universal and you will get service ... but it's not as good as in the US when you are covered.
Can you shed some light on this?
For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out
Most new construction apartments are quite small, and the older, larger ones command a significant premium. You can move out of the downtown core (to North York, Scarborough, etc) but then you're committed to a long commute on the slow TTC or sitting in traffic on the 401.
MTL is much cheaper, but salaries also lag even further.
Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages.
[1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
I'm talking about the average for the whole salary, not the marginal rate for the highest bracket. It looks like you have to earn $250,000 CAD to get a 40% average, but that's a very high salary by Canadian standards.
The salaries in Canada, however, are just not up to par with the US. The CAD to USD currency rate is also not amazing (0.77 CAD to 1 USD last I looked).
I work remotely for an American company, but if I didn't it would be a huge pay cut for me.
Also, definitely not trivial, even as an American with a technical degree. The paperwork & process isn't hard but getting a TN sponsor is non-trivial.
Quebec also has their own immigration rules and you have to apply with them as well as with the Federal government. Not sure how TN's work in QC, but I know only Canadian PRs and Citizens can move there; if you're a temporary resident from outside of the province you need to talk to QC Immigration.
Caveat: this is based on old NAFTA rules, not sure how they work or if there are changes under the recently-signed "NAFTA 2.0."
Either a Travel+Toursim visa (depending if you're nationality of origin is eligible) or a Visa sponsored by an employer.
The winters are extremely cold but if you don’t mind that it’s fine. Not sure about the salaries but I hear they are lower but so is the cost of living.
Only London and Paris are much bigger.
Mtl is about 4 million people, it's almost the same size as Madrid or Berlin or Barca. A little smaller than Amsterdam but really bigger than most else.
But it's tier 2 size in North America, but a strong tier 2.
It's really weird how people in NA don't know about Montreal. It kills most places for culture.
Montreal metro is 4 million. But Montreal has a special dynamic, by fact of being an island. It's not as well connected as Manhattam.
So there are two "bumps", one north and one south (Montreal has its own definition of North/South, btw)
Also, the 'division' is not geographic, it's cultural. East Montreal is French, West is English and it's bizarre how little social crossing there is. I live among the French and they don't even know about major things happening in the West Side.
It will get better when they build the new bridge though
Happy to chat about what it's like to live in Montreal if anyone's curious.
My outfit, TandemLaunch, has built 20+ deep tech companies in Montreal with people from all over the globe (some 40+ countries of origin). Depending on your background, there might be opportunities for you in one of those. Our companies range from early stage to those with 100+ employees so there are opportunities along the entire risk/reward spectrum (see here http://www.tandemlaunch.com/#portfolio). Obviously there are plenty of other great companies in Montreal as well.
Happy to help with any local insights if you are considering this beautiful city (including with immigration since we have literally done this 100+ times).
cheers Helge
He was a research physicist that worked on developing High-Dynamic Range screens, so he's interested in businesses kinda like that.
We work with 50+ universities across the globe on the fundamental research and then incorporate the results in new tech companies like those above. Great fun :)
Prague is relatively cheap.
Also, some of the college towns in the US if they're not nestled within major metros.
Tokyo, SF, NYC, London, Moscow, etc. are where the action is at: for people whom can compete and afford a lifestyle unsustainable for anyone else.
81 Nobel Laureates
This is misleading, because it falsely counts winners of the "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences Prize in Economic Sciences" as a Nobel price. Alfred Nobel did not donate a price for economics. The Sveriges Riksbank (= bank of the swedish empire) created this price (against the explicit wishes of the Nobel foundation [1]) in order to 'cash' in on the reputation of Nobel price. This is well-known and it is most likely that an institution that false counts winners of the Sveriges Riksbank as Nobel price winners is doing this to mislead the audience.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Econom...
More precisely my speech act was performative: I'm leading by example, because I hope that others will copy my behaviour and speak up whenever somebody falsely calls winners of the Bank of the Swedish Empire a Nobel price winner. The best case outcome is that eventually the false prestige will be eroded away. (Compare with the Nobel Price for Literature and Peace, they are both widely regarded as jokes and nobody cares -- or worse in case of the Peace price.)
Anyway, sorry for this tangent, I don't want to derail the thread, the main subject of which is of great interest to me.
Since the shady nature of the Economics prices is widely known, and brand management is a core imperative for modern high-fee universities, Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are just as guilty. The problem of false-Nobels is widely known and discussed among economists and physicists.
I find it surprising that there is so much resistance to the (widely discussed [1]) false advertising involved in the mislabelling the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences Prize in Economic Sciences. I've brought up this subject many times on HN, and always get negative reactions (but never a coherent defense of the practise of mislabeling Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences Prize). In contrast, when I bring this subject up in face-to-face communication, my interlocutors always agree.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Econom...