Hacker News Reader

Comment by Symbiote | Hacker News Reader

The healthiest old (or old-ish) people I know are the ones who use public transport the most.

Two of my grandparents drove everywhere for decades, retired, still drove everywhere, then had huge trouble with their joints etc. When my grandmother lost her license (worsening eyesight), she was very isolated.

My other grandparents had nice cars, but also made good use of their pensioner's discount/free transport pass. My grandma would take the train across a large English city to visit her sister or friends. She's in her late 80s, and still very mobile, although no longer independent.

I prefer a ban, as it's fairer to everyone. There are externalities that are very difficult to price (pollution, accident risk), and just being rich doesn't give people extra rights to poison the air and kill/injure people. It also ensures rich people use public transport, so they have some incentive to make sure the service is good.

View on HN

I've you've ever spent significant time in Europe, or more specifically, the Netherlands, you will see people of advanced age have no problem getting around on bikes and public transport. In fact, I can't help but smile every time I see someone who is clearly in their 80s/90s biking down the Amsterdam streets in fantastic health.

I feel that if people are used to moving around their lives, they can continue to do so even in old age, like taking stairs every day on a 4th story walk-up with bags of groceries and goods.

Anecdotally, I feel the rise of the automobile coincided with the fall of general health and mobility of senior citizens.

There’s a false impression there, though, because the people you see around on the streets are by definition those that are capable of getting around. Even fit young people sometimes break bones or injure ligaments in a way which makes getting around difficult. If you damage your ACL and need to get into work, how can it be done?

You need a system which has at least a rational level of support for people who are elderly, infirm, or otherwise physically disabled.

This argument comes up every time. Walking or biking improvements can make life easier for people with disabilities too; especially those who don't own a car or whose disability precludes them from driving. Some examples I've seen in the last few weeks: an amputee using a bicycle as a mobility device to compensate for a missing leg and someone in a motorized wheel chair using a bike lane.

> "But what about disabled people!"

We already exempt them from various driving rules, such as parking restrictions. We already have special transport services just for them. No one is suggesting removing these.

I genuinely am just making that simple point. But it does follow that under such a scheme you couldn’t totally ban cars.

> I prefer a ban, as it's fairer to everyone. There are externalities that are very difficult to price (pollution, accident risk)

That's a fair argument. I think a car-less future for urban centers is a good goal, but you need a huge transit infrastructure that I don't think most (any?) cities have right now to support it. Permitting is a transitional tool to enable a gradual phase out while letting the polluters/accident-causers etc. pay for the costs they're putting on the rest of us.

This isn't even a Euro thing. Many elderly people ride the bus here in the US in my city. The divide is between the rich and the poor. If you're wealthy, of course they drive because society is built to benefit drivers, but many people, old, not able bodied, not seeing, not hearing, etc., ride the bus.

Banning vehicles is not inclusive of people with disabilities. Does this mean they should effectively be banned from cities?

Presumably you'd have some publicly-funded wheelchair accessible vehicles driving them around.

I don’t think any proponents of this would have any issue with allowing disabled people access (probably including disability caused by aging).

A ban on vehicles could be restraining even to those with a special exemption because the infrastructure will adjust for the ban. What use is a car when the place you need to get is only accessible by bike lanes and sidewalks?

Lots of places use small vehicles like golf-carts in that situation: hotels, nursing homes, walking communities, etc.

False causality (I believe post hoc fallacy). Maybe healthy people take more public transportation, or maybe your sample size is so ridiculously tiny you can't draw significant conclusions. And the fact that some healthier people ride public transportation may be because they are healthier, not the other way around.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com