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Comment by andr | Hacker News Reader

The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store.

In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a keyboard replacement.

Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice.

Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a MacBook as a business device.

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It might be totally unfeasible for a consumer to get your rights over a small repair, but you do have EU-law protection for your rights as a consumer.

Article 3 of the directive [1] states your rights quite clearly: "Any repair or replacement shall be completed within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience to the consumer, taking account of the nature of the goods and the purpose for which the consumer required the goods."

If the seller does not meet these guidelines (possibly enacted in local law, but this has to be within the framework set by the directive) you can annul the contract and get your money back. For a laptop, 3 weeks seems unreasonable and with significant inconvenience.

The bigger point is that Apple seems to be totally in denial of European consumer law and actively seeks to hinder timely and convenient repairs. That is one that should be addressed at a European level. They allow stores to sell their product without being able to offer the minimum warranty. Via EU-law that's a problem for the seller, not so much Apple, but the EU could argue that it's Apple that is setting the agenda and hindering stores to give proper warranty.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

I hope we get a "right to repair" law in EU, where the seller is required by law to provide repairability services next to their regular warranties. That means that, as a seller, you must provide a service to repair (and replacement parts) for "reasonable" prices for anything you sell.

For example, if you're selling notebooks, you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell.

Context: Imagine dropping your macbook and the screen breaks; You must be able to get it replaced for a "reasonable" price and you must be able to buy a replacement screen to repair it yourself. The seller must provide these services (either by delegating it to a repair or repairing it themselves)

Maintainability is a feature, so to speak. Another option would be to purchase the product that best fits your needs, including warranty, repair, parts, upgrading, etc.

If Brand A decides it's best to not provide Feature X and you __need__ Feature X, then you can decide that Brand A isn't for you.

If anything should be legislated it should be publishing the details about warranty coverage, average cost or repair, most common repairs, as well as turnaround times. Then, with that info, let the consumer make the decision that best fits them.

As a "consumer" who develops iOS apps, what alternative choice to a mac can I make? With monopolies that tend to crop up these days, the phrase that customers have a choice rings hollow.

Today? Few. However, in doing this, Apple is creating opportunity - provided the market wants an alternative.

That being said, the arc of my point is, that if there's going to be legislation it should start with information that enables the consumer, not inject Uncle Sam into another problem that it's unprepared and unable to solve.

> Maintainability is a feature, so to speak.

Yes, but lets be clear, this is not lack of maintainability... this is very clearly _anti_maintainability, there is a big difference.

There is nothing inherent to the hardware design here that makes replacing components impossible, just the addition of this one chip for the single purpose of preventing it.

And it's not surprising, we all know Apple's position on Unofficial or user repair options.

> you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell

You’re proposing commanding companies to erect and maintain new and complex supply chains and packaging schemes. It’s a well-meaning proposal. But it will be costly. That will deter new entrants and increase prices in your market. Do this many times from different perspectives and you end up with a towering bureaucracy and sclerotic economy.

But if "the nature of the goods" required them to ship the laptop to Apple to have a diagnostic run after the repair, and that takes a few weeks?

It doesn't, though. There is nothing fundamental to the concept of a laptop that requires lengthy, licensed repair. That's the point of the law--you're allowed to be realistic about your product's needs, you're not allowed to deliberately make it harder than it has to be, so you can corner the repair market.

Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too.

From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well.

Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook.

Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it.

They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.

I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect.

> Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

> Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year.

Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42

The way I see it US govt won’t enact a law that makes their big businesses worse off (at-least) the current ones.

They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and that’s their measuring stick.

But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don’t buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in places where they don’t have Apple stores and good support.

> That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

As far as I know, this is not allowed in most of the EU if you bought the device outright.

On the other hand: The customer probably bought the phone with a O2 combination contract in which case it is a phone-on-a-loan (as in banking). In that case the provider is responsible as seller and loan provider, and the Apple store employee is correct to refuse unless O2 has a direct servicing agreement with the Apple store.

If he bought it outright (even through O2) and O2 doesn't provide reasonable service (missing your phone for three weeks isn't reasonable) he can request repair within warranty at the factory but will most likely have to pay for it himself and then send the repair cost to O2 (which they will argue against doing in order to avoid paying). The "factory" can refuse to do so and send the customer back to the seller in which case he/she should argue for a quick repair or stop the contract with reimbursement.

It's a complicated problem, but the Apple store was most likely correct in this case.

I'm not commenting on the story the OP was sharing here. I'm commenting on the first broad observation they made. They implied that the main issue with Apple locking out repairs on their devices was that Apple themselves could not service all potential necessary repairs because they did not have the scale to do so.

But I say there's a problem way before we get to whether or not Apple can meet the demand for repairs worldwide. I don't like companies that intentionally attempt to prevent people from repairing, hacking or modifying things.

I don't like the term "Right to Repair" because it sounds kind of silly. But I recognize that the industrial revolution, the electronics boom, the invention of the personal computer, desktop software boom and the rise internet were all driven in part by people who tore other people's stuff apart, hacked it, modified it and reinvented it.

Art gets so much credit in terms of being an uplifting passtime but we massively overlook the joy of learning how things work, changing them and sharing them. Anyone who stands in the way of that has lost the love of that. They've lost their passion and I don't really want to pay for their products.

This is due to liability law. O2 is liable for the condition fo the phone they sold you, but if Apple take on the repair they adopt liability. Apple has a contract with O2 to repair the phone, not with you whom they don't have a contractual relationship with. They can't just waive that contractual relationship for every singe purchaser of Apple products from third parties world wide, it would open them up to a lot of risk. Suppose O2 screwed up warehousing and damaged a whole batch of iPhones somehow and then sold them to customers, Apple would end up liable for that. If you want a contractual relationship with Apple, just buy the phone from Apple.

I got an S8+ from Samsung on release via Telstra in Australia.

There was an issue with the screen, so I took it to Samsung in Melbourne Central. They confirmed the issue and were happy to do an on the spot replacement if Telstra didn't have any left in their nearby store - for admin reasons it was just a bit better to do that.

Telstra didn't, so I took Samsung up on their offer - very happy to have it resolved straight away. None of the BS as in the GP post with Apple.

You're in Australia, OP's anecdote is in the UK. Different laws apply in different countries.

I'm not sure if Samsung as the manufacturer was legally obliged to replace a device that I bought from a different supplier. I feel it would be well in their rights to tell me to just go to Telstra.

However as a combined service center / sales outlet they had a policy to replace DOA units as long as it was a genuine Australian, non grey import.

To be honest they just appear genuinely interested in looking after their customers and were just as excited as myself about the new release.

I had a USB port issue with the S6 Edge phone prior to my S8+ and the was also resolved quickly by a repair, ended up being on the day with a free loaner.

Service like that has pretty much guaranteed I'll stay with Samsung products for the foreseeable future (I upgrade every two years).

> repairing with quality

relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s

Why would you buy a phone through O2? Just go to an Apple Store and buy it directly.

Most likely: phone-on-a-loan contracts. You pay per month instead of the insane cost outright.

If it’s added as “Dead on Arrival” then O2 would have to give him a replacement right there. If it was classed as breaking after arrival due to a manufacturing defect then yep it’s up to O2 to do their repair process which sounds ridiculously long, but normal for phone companies. He would essentially be not accepting the phone, rather than accepting and returning.

The phone companies might try to push him into the return process so that they can sell the phone that would have replaced it to another customer, but they aren’t supposed to, and will change their mind when you push back and tell them your rights.

This is one of the reasons why I only buy my Apple products from Apple, their service is far better than this, although has declined in recent years.

I dont know if its different in UK but in US the warranty is provided by Apple and the Apple Store would repair any Apple product as long as an authorized retailer sold it

They need to invest in making their hardware documented and accessible. Obviously their secrecy isn't doing their customers any favors regardless of how you look at it.

What's more valuable to the consumer? A device that doesn't work and cannot reasonably be repaired or a device that was repaired with knock off parts and inexperienced labor that still gets the job done?

To take an adage from farmers; "The best machine is one that can perform it's duties despite it's condition."

The three Apple Stores in The Netherlands so popular that it is impossible to even get an appointment at the Genius Bar. You’ll have to wait for new slots to become available at the end of their 7-day window. When you finally have your appointment after a week there’s usually another 20min+ minute wait before the busy Geniuses can speak to you.

Fortunately common iOS repairs (like a display replacement) can often be done on the same day. The situation for MacBooks is a lot worse however, with many days of just waiting for parts.

Fortunately there is an easy solution to this conundrum: stop buying products which can only be repaired by "geniuses" in a "licensed shop". The same spiel was tried by car manufacturers where it was quashed by legal requirements to open up for repair by third parties. It is currently being tried by agricultural manufacturers (John Deere being a well-known and not so well-loved example) which try to use firmware licenses to keep farmers from repairing or enhancing their equipment without giving Deere its pound of flesh. This practice will hopefully meet the same end as the automotive equivalent although there is a chance that lobbyists for the industry manage to buy themselves a reprieve given that the market is a lot smaller and as such the buyers don't represent as many votes. It may be clear that there is no Deere on my farm, nor will there be one for as long as they keep up these shenanigans. The only apples here are the ones on the trees, free to be handled by mere mortals.

Come to think of it I seem to remember the Bible warning us about certain fruits in Genesis 3:3 - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Really appreciate the Bible reference there at the end! Not often you get a bible reference on here, and so topical :)

Given how hard these things are getting to repair and how long it takes, I think you could argue that Apple should just offer to replace faulty devices with new ones.

Having a pro device out of action for more than a week is just not acceptable. If it breaks, I want to have the replacement up and running ASAP. If Apple can then repair and refurbish the original at their own leisurely pace, fine. That will also put the pressure on cutting down on repair times and cost for Apple. They seem incentivized to milk their expensive care package a bit too much currently.

Anyway, my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. I'm actually considering permanently switching to a linux machine and then getting it repaired. After it comes back, I'll probably sell it.

This is often what happens anyways. I just had my entire MacBook Pro 2017 replaced, all but the bottom plate. Same happened to me 5 years ago..

> my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running.

My '15 MBP retina had it's keyboard and trackpad shit itself about 12 months after I purchased it. It was becoming apparent at the time that a) apple wouldn't repair it (they told me that I must have damaged it myself so they wouldn't do a warranty job, before even inspecting it) and b) they wanted to take the machine for diagnosis and repairs at the "local" apple centre (roughly 400km away at the time) which through experience I knew to take at least several weeks.

This was not a viable solution for me as it was a work machine, and any downtime was problematic. So I've permanently had my wired keyboard and mouse with me since.

Needless to say I've got an 8th gen i7 Dell on it's way in the mail now.

Good luck with dell warranty/service.

The whole point of this story is that you can get such machines fixed at independent repair shops if the manufacturer is not playing ball. Apple is trying to stop that, Dell et al aren't (as far as i'm aware. )

Have you had bad experiences with them (genuinely curious)? The only time I've had to use dell onsite service, they came out the same day... So I bought their 12 month onsite warranty, but I also figure that after 12 months I'll feel happy to start doing repairs myself.

Side note, I'm not normally a massive Dell fan by any stretch, but no one else had a 8750h/16gb ddr4/1060 geforce for the money I wanted to spend (and available on the shelf), even though the chassis is super plasticy and doesn't really inspire the same 'wow' factor I got from apple hardware's look and feel. It's a G3 17 I've landed on ($1,900 aud with a docking station included), as the G7 was out of stock, and I'm an impatient prick. I'm hoping I don't regret it, haha.

Unless you'll get one of the defective units, you'll love your Dell. The plasticky coating os quite durable and it doesn't feel cold to the touch like the aluminium body of a MacBook. Still has sharp edges IMO.

If you'll get a bad unit, I advise you to return it immediately and re-buy. Their replacements come from refurbished units and their refurbishers are no good at fixing everything, and sometimes introduce other issues, so you'll be guaranteed to hate Dell's guts after going thru couple rounds of replacements (as per Dell subreddit). Onsite repair should be fine, though.

I personally like to tinker with my Dells, had performed a not-so-economical upgrade from 9550 to 9560 on mine with great fun and overall just enjoy the 15" laptop. One mistake I made is assuming that the touchpads on 13" XPS would be as good. Boy was I wrong, now my wife's suffering through one. It's the same across 9350 and 9360,but may have been fixed on the 9370, I haven't tried it yet.

No issues with Dell warranty/service here and I send Dells, Lenovos, & Macbooks out for repair a few times a week. Equally as good in my opinion.

Doesn’t Apple provide loaner devices during repairs?

No.

No. But you can usually order a new one and return when the repair is finished.

AFAIK, only if you sign up for their "Joint Venture" business program. In HK, it's HKD 3838 a year (about USD 500).

EDIT to add: my 2016 MBP is so bad that I'm seriously considering joining that program.

I've managed it in the past, but only after emailing Tim Cook. Someone picked it up and sorted it.

Was an older Unibody MacBook Pro with a factory SSD, used to randomly decide to delete all the data on it every couple of months. In the end they replaced the entire machine with a newer model.

FWIW I brought my 2017 MBP in for keyboard repair in Houston and had a new one mailed to me after a day. Had a whole new front panel. I left impressed with the service and the ability to digitally book with a face-to-face human.

I'm not sure which country you are in, but in the Netherlands when I bring in my Apple devices in for repair I just order a brand new one that I return when I go pick up my device after it has been repaired. You need to have money for a new device obviously, you need to order it online and you have to return it within 14 days but it's a great way to be able to keep working.

For anyone who thinks this is an abuse of the system, I don't feel guilty doing this if Apple takes weeks to replace a keyboard, doesn't offer a temporary replacement or do on-site repair the next business day. I have offered my local Apple reseller money for these services but they won't do it. Somehow they are OK with me buying a brand new device and returning it for every repair.

I get why you don’t feel guilty about it (I wouldn’t either), but another thing to consider is what impact it has. From Apple’s perspective, this is clear abuse (the goal of this policy is for new buyers to be able to return a product they don’t like, not a loaner service, and they take a 10% loss when they then sell the device as refurb). If too many people do it, they will make the policy more strict and everybody will loose this great escape hatchet for buying the wrong thing.

(Notice this is not EU mandated 14 day right of withdrawal, which only allows you to unpack and reasonably determine suitability, i.e. do a bit more than what you could do in a store. Heavily using the computer for 14 days is not permitted by it and is only allowed by Apple’s generous policy.)

In the Philippines, Macbooks that need servicing (e.g. the "free" keyboard repair offer for the 2016-2018 Macbooks) need to be shipped all the way to Singapore. Estimated waiting time: 4 weeks. At least it's free I guess.

I was literally yesterday in the shop of an official reseller in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia, there is no Apple Store here). I have non critical problems with my Macbook Pro and asked if they can fix it (including the keyboard problem for which there is a repair program).

"We will have to take it in for repair, this will take at least 14 business days."

At this point can’t you ship it to Apple ?

Sending it to their Cupertino address might be a good way of protest at least.

Just in case, it was not meant sarcasticly.

Repairs can be done by shipping it to whatever support address they provide. I haven’t done it in years but if your repair shop takes 14 days, it can be signifixantly faster.

The whole point with that 14 business days quote is that they will very likely ship it somewhere outside the country, or at the very least to another city. And if you ship it yourself you most likely have to pay for the shipping from your own pocket.

Not under warranty, Apple provides the shipping both ways.

I should have clarified: my macbook is out of the 1 year warranty. However the keyboard has problems for which there is an extended repair program (I'm not sure if this falls under an extended warranty or whatever).

Or a good way to get it repaired? Ship it to whatever address they tell you to.

Yeah, growing up in New Zealand I fixed many of my own and others' MacBooks/iMacs with aftermarket parts for this reason. We had no official channel, outside of shipping to Australia or further which required a 3-4 week wait, a potential invoice, and of course the entire time you're without a machine. It's a real bummer, because this is still the reality today, and some of these repairs are trivial (i.e battery).

My Bulgarian MacBook adventure was actually pretty great. I needed an arrow key for my 2014 MacBook and contacted a shop in Sofia. They were happy to ship (they had it in sock) it to their sister shop in Varna (closer to me) and once I got there the key and labor to replace it (granted, it only took them 3 minutes) was less than €2.

Yes, two Euros.

Times have changed. That repair would now cost you 700€

I don't love the new keyboard, but keycaps are still replaceable as long as the scissor mechanism is OK. (Previously the scissor could be replaced, too.)

Did they let you keep the sock?

go back to reddit

you can add all of LATAM to that list. FAIL

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