Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros | Hacker News Reader

Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros

motherboard.vice.com

472 pointsrodneyrdx436 comments

The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store.

In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a keyboard replacement.

Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice.

Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a MacBook as a business device.

Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too.

From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well.

Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook.

Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it.

They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.

I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect.

> Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

> Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a right to reverse-engineer software if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year.

Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42

The way I see it US govt won’t enact a law that makes their big businesses worse off (at-least) the current ones.

They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and that’s their measuring stick.

But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don’t buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in places where they don’t have Apple stores and good support.

> That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

As far as I know, this is not allowed in most of the EU if you bought the device outright.

On the other hand: The customer probably bought the phone with a O2 combination contract in which case it is a phone-on-a-loan (as in banking). In that case the provider is responsible as seller and loan provider, and the Apple store employee is correct to refuse unless O2 has a direct servicing agreement with the Apple store.

If he bought it outright (even through O2) and O2 doesn't provide reasonable service (missing your phone for three weeks isn't reasonable) he can request repair within warranty at the factory but will most likely have to pay for it himself and then send the repair cost to O2 (which they will argue against doing in order to avoid paying). The "factory" can refuse to do so and send the customer back to the seller in which case he/she should argue for a quick repair or stop the contract with reimbursement.

It's a complicated problem, but the Apple store was most likely correct in this case.

I'm not commenting on the story the OP was sharing here. I'm commenting on the first broad observation they made. They implied that the main issue with Apple locking out repairs on their devices was that Apple themselves could not service all potential necessary repairs because they did not have the scale to do so.

But I say there's a problem way before we get to whether or not Apple can meet the demand for repairs worldwide. I don't like companies that intentionally attempt to prevent people from repairing, hacking or modifying things.

I don't like the term "Right to Repair" because it sounds kind of silly. But I recognize that the industrial revolution, the electronics boom, the invention of the personal computer, desktop software boom and the rise internet were all driven in part by people who tore other people's stuff apart, hacked it, modified it and reinvented it.

Art gets so much credit in terms of being an uplifting passtime but we massively overlook the joy of learning how things work, changing them and sharing them. Anyone who stands in the way of that has lost the love of that. They've lost their passion and I don't really want to pay for their products.

This is due to liability law. O2 is liable for the condition fo the phone they sold you, but if Apple take on the repair they adopt liability. Apple has a contract with O2 to repair the phone, not with you whom they don't have a contractual relationship with. They can't just waive that contractual relationship for every singe purchaser of Apple products from third parties world wide, it would open them up to a lot of risk. Suppose O2 screwed up warehousing and damaged a whole batch of iPhones somehow and then sold them to customers, Apple would end up liable for that. If you want a contractual relationship with Apple, just buy the phone from Apple.

I got an S8+ from Samsung on release via Telstra in Australia.

There was an issue with the screen, so I took it to Samsung in Melbourne Central. They confirmed the issue and were happy to do an on the spot replacement if Telstra didn't have any left in their nearby store - for admin reasons it was just a bit better to do that.

Telstra didn't, so I took Samsung up on their offer - very happy to have it resolved straight away. None of the BS as in the GP post with Apple.

You're in Australia, OP's anecdote is in the UK. Different laws apply in different countries.

I'm not sure if Samsung as the manufacturer was legally obliged to replace a device that I bought from a different supplier. I feel it would be well in their rights to tell me to just go to Telstra.

However as a combined service center / sales outlet they had a policy to replace DOA units as long as it was a genuine Australian, non grey import.

To be honest they just appear genuinely interested in looking after their customers and were just as excited as myself about the new release.

I had a USB port issue with the S6 Edge phone prior to my S8+ and the was also resolved quickly by a repair, ended up being on the day with a free loaner.

Service like that has pretty much guaranteed I'll stay with Samsung products for the foreseeable future (I upgrade every two years).

> repairing with quality

relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s

Why would you buy a phone through O2? Just go to an Apple Store and buy it directly.

Most likely: phone-on-a-loan contracts. You pay per month instead of the insane cost outright.

If it’s added as “Dead on Arrival” then O2 would have to give him a replacement right there. If it was classed as breaking after arrival due to a manufacturing defect then yep it’s up to O2 to do their repair process which sounds ridiculously long, but normal for phone companies. He would essentially be not accepting the phone, rather than accepting and returning.

The phone companies might try to push him into the return process so that they can sell the phone that would have replaced it to another customer, but they aren’t supposed to, and will change their mind when you push back and tell them your rights.

This is one of the reasons why I only buy my Apple products from Apple, their service is far better than this, although has declined in recent years.

I dont know if its different in UK but in US the warranty is provided by Apple and the Apple Store would repair any Apple product as long as an authorized retailer sold it

They need to invest in making their hardware documented and accessible. Obviously their secrecy isn't doing their customers any favors regardless of how you look at it.

What's more valuable to the consumer? A device that doesn't work and cannot reasonably be repaired or a device that was repaired with knock off parts and inexperienced labor that still gets the job done?

To take an adage from farmers; "The best machine is one that can perform it's duties despite it's condition."

I was literally yesterday in the shop of an official reseller in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia, there is no Apple Store here). I have non critical problems with my Macbook Pro and asked if they can fix it (including the keyboard problem for which there is a repair program).

"We will have to take it in for repair, this will take at least 14 business days."

At this point can’t you ship it to Apple ?

Sending it to their Cupertino address might be a good way of protest at least.

Just in case, it was not meant sarcasticly.

Repairs can be done by shipping it to whatever support address they provide. I haven’t done it in years but if your repair shop takes 14 days, it can be signifixantly faster.

The whole point with that 14 business days quote is that they will very likely ship it somewhere outside the country, or at the very least to another city. And if you ship it yourself you most likely have to pay for the shipping from your own pocket.

Not under warranty, Apple provides the shipping both ways.

I should have clarified: my macbook is out of the 1 year warranty. However the keyboard has problems for which there is an extended repair program (I'm not sure if this falls under an extended warranty or whatever).

Or a good way to get it repaired? Ship it to whatever address they tell you to.

The three Apple Stores in The Netherlands so popular that it is impossible to even get an appointment at the Genius Bar. You’ll have to wait for new slots to become available at the end of their 7-day window. When you finally have your appointment after a week there’s usually another 20min+ minute wait before the busy Geniuses can speak to you.

Fortunately common iOS repairs (like a display replacement) can often be done on the same day. The situation for MacBooks is a lot worse however, with many days of just waiting for parts.

Fortunately there is an easy solution to this conundrum: stop buying products which can only be repaired by "geniuses" in a "licensed shop". The same spiel was tried by car manufacturers where it was quashed by legal requirements to open up for repair by third parties. It is currently being tried by agricultural manufacturers (John Deere being a well-known and not so well-loved example) which try to use firmware licenses to keep farmers from repairing or enhancing their equipment without giving Deere its pound of flesh. This practice will hopefully meet the same end as the automotive equivalent although there is a chance that lobbyists for the industry manage to buy themselves a reprieve given that the market is a lot smaller and as such the buyers don't represent as many votes. It may be clear that there is no Deere on my farm, nor will there be one for as long as they keep up these shenanigans. The only apples here are the ones on the trees, free to be handled by mere mortals.

Come to think of it I seem to remember the Bible warning us about certain fruits in Genesis 3:3 - "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Really appreciate the Bible reference there at the end! Not often you get a bible reference on here, and so topical :)

In the Philippines, Macbooks that need servicing (e.g. the "free" keyboard repair offer for the 2016-2018 Macbooks) need to be shipped all the way to Singapore. Estimated waiting time: 4 weeks. At least it's free I guess.

Given how hard these things are getting to repair and how long it takes, I think you could argue that Apple should just offer to replace faulty devices with new ones.

Having a pro device out of action for more than a week is just not acceptable. If it breaks, I want to have the replacement up and running ASAP. If Apple can then repair and refurbish the original at their own leisurely pace, fine. That will also put the pressure on cutting down on repair times and cost for Apple. They seem incentivized to milk their expensive care package a bit too much currently.

Anyway, my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running. I'm actually considering permanently switching to a linux machine and then getting it repaired. After it comes back, I'll probably sell it.

This is often what happens anyways. I just had my entire MacBook Pro 2017 replaced, all but the bottom plate. Same happened to me 5 years ago..

> my 2017 MBP keyboard is starting to become faulty. I've been dreading having to turn it in because I actually need this thing up and running.

My '15 MBP retina had it's keyboard and trackpad shit itself about 12 months after I purchased it. It was becoming apparent at the time that a) apple wouldn't repair it (they told me that I must have damaged it myself so they wouldn't do a warranty job, before even inspecting it) and b) they wanted to take the machine for diagnosis and repairs at the "local" apple centre (roughly 400km away at the time) which through experience I knew to take at least several weeks.

This was not a viable solution for me as it was a work machine, and any downtime was problematic. So I've permanently had my wired keyboard and mouse with me since.

Needless to say I've got an 8th gen i7 Dell on it's way in the mail now.

Good luck with dell warranty/service.

The whole point of this story is that you can get such machines fixed at independent repair shops if the manufacturer is not playing ball. Apple is trying to stop that, Dell et al aren't (as far as i'm aware. )

Have you had bad experiences with them (genuinely curious)? The only time I've had to use dell onsite service, they came out the same day... So I bought their 12 month onsite warranty, but I also figure that after 12 months I'll feel happy to start doing repairs myself.

Side note, I'm not normally a massive Dell fan by any stretch, but no one else had a 8750h/16gb ddr4/1060 geforce for the money I wanted to spend (and available on the shelf), even though the chassis is super plasticy and doesn't really inspire the same 'wow' factor I got from apple hardware's look and feel. It's a G3 17 I've landed on ($1,900 aud with a docking station included), as the G7 was out of stock, and I'm an impatient prick. I'm hoping I don't regret it, haha.

Unless you'll get one of the defective units, you'll love your Dell. The plasticky coating os quite durable and it doesn't feel cold to the touch like the aluminium body of a MacBook. Still has sharp edges IMO.

If you'll get a bad unit, I advise you to return it immediately and re-buy. Their replacements come from refurbished units and their refurbishers are no good at fixing everything, and sometimes introduce other issues, so you'll be guaranteed to hate Dell's guts after going thru couple rounds of replacements (as per Dell subreddit). Onsite repair should be fine, though.

I personally like to tinker with my Dells, had performed a not-so-economical upgrade from 9550 to 9560 on mine with great fun and overall just enjoy the 15" laptop. One mistake I made is assuming that the touchpads on 13" XPS would be as good. Boy was I wrong, now my wife's suffering through one. It's the same across 9350 and 9360,but may have been fixed on the 9370, I haven't tried it yet.

No issues with Dell warranty/service here and I send Dells, Lenovos, & Macbooks out for repair a few times a week. Equally as good in my opinion.

Doesn’t Apple provide loaner devices during repairs?

No.

No. But you can usually order a new one and return when the repair is finished.

AFAIK, only if you sign up for their "Joint Venture" business program. In HK, it's HKD 3838 a year (about USD 500).

EDIT to add: my 2016 MBP is so bad that I'm seriously considering joining that program.

I've managed it in the past, but only after emailing Tim Cook. Someone picked it up and sorted it.

Was an older Unibody MacBook Pro with a factory SSD, used to randomly decide to delete all the data on it every couple of months. In the end they replaced the entire machine with a newer model.

FWIW I brought my 2017 MBP in for keyboard repair in Houston and had a new one mailed to me after a day. Had a whole new front panel. I left impressed with the service and the ability to digitally book with a face-to-face human.

I'm not sure which country you are in, but in the Netherlands when I bring in my Apple devices in for repair I just order a brand new one that I return when I go pick up my device after it has been repaired. You need to have money for a new device obviously, you need to order it online and you have to return it within 14 days but it's a great way to be able to keep working.

For anyone who thinks this is an abuse of the system, I don't feel guilty doing this if Apple takes weeks to replace a keyboard, doesn't offer a temporary replacement or do on-site repair the next business day. I have offered my local Apple reseller money for these services but they won't do it. Somehow they are OK with me buying a brand new device and returning it for every repair.

I get why you don’t feel guilty about it (I wouldn’t either), but another thing to consider is what impact it has. From Apple’s perspective, this is clear abuse (the goal of this policy is for new buyers to be able to return a product they don’t like, not a loaner service, and they take a 10% loss when they then sell the device as refurb). If too many people do it, they will make the policy more strict and everybody will loose this great escape hatchet for buying the wrong thing.

(Notice this is not EU mandated 14 day right of withdrawal, which only allows you to unpack and reasonably determine suitability, i.e. do a bit more than what you could do in a store. Heavily using the computer for 14 days is not permitted by it and is only allowed by Apple’s generous policy.)

My Bulgarian MacBook adventure was actually pretty great. I needed an arrow key for my 2014 MacBook and contacted a shop in Sofia. They were happy to ship (they had it in sock) it to their sister shop in Varna (closer to me) and once I got there the key and labor to replace it (granted, it only took them 3 minutes) was less than €2.

Yes, two Euros.

Times have changed. That repair would now cost you 700€

I don't love the new keyboard, but keycaps are still replaceable as long as the scissor mechanism is OK. (Previously the scissor could be replaced, too.)

Did they let you keep the sock?

go back to reddit

It might be totally unfeasible for a consumer to get your rights over a small repair, but you do have EU-law protection for your rights as a consumer.

Article 3 of the directive [1] states your rights quite clearly: "Any repair or replacement shall be completed within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience to the consumer, taking account of the nature of the goods and the purpose for which the consumer required the goods."

If the seller does not meet these guidelines (possibly enacted in local law, but this has to be within the framework set by the directive) you can annul the contract and get your money back. For a laptop, 3 weeks seems unreasonable and with significant inconvenience.

The bigger point is that Apple seems to be totally in denial of European consumer law and actively seeks to hinder timely and convenient repairs. That is one that should be addressed at a European level. They allow stores to sell their product without being able to offer the minimum warranty. Via EU-law that's a problem for the seller, not so much Apple, but the EU could argue that it's Apple that is setting the agenda and hindering stores to give proper warranty.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

I hope we get a "right to repair" law in EU, where the seller is required by law to provide repairability services next to their regular warranties. That means that, as a seller, you must provide a service to repair (and replacement parts) for "reasonable" prices for anything you sell.

For example, if you're selling notebooks, you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell.

Context: Imagine dropping your macbook and the screen breaks; You must be able to get it replaced for a "reasonable" price and you must be able to buy a replacement screen to repair it yourself. The seller must provide these services (either by delegating it to a repair or repairing it themselves)

Maintainability is a feature, so to speak. Another option would be to purchase the product that best fits your needs, including warranty, repair, parts, upgrading, etc.

If Brand A decides it's best to not provide Feature X and you __need__ Feature X, then you can decide that Brand A isn't for you.

If anything should be legislated it should be publishing the details about warranty coverage, average cost or repair, most common repairs, as well as turnaround times. Then, with that info, let the consumer make the decision that best fits them.

As a "consumer" who develops iOS apps, what alternative choice to a mac can I make? With monopolies that tend to crop up these days, the phrase that customers have a choice rings hollow.

Today? Few. However, in doing this, Apple is creating opportunity - provided the market wants an alternative.

That being said, the arc of my point is, that if there's going to be legislation it should start with information that enables the consumer, not inject Uncle Sam into another problem that it's unprepared and unable to solve.

> Maintainability is a feature, so to speak.

Yes, but lets be clear, this is not lack of maintainability... this is very clearly _anti_maintainability, there is a big difference.

There is nothing inherent to the hardware design here that makes replacing components impossible, just the addition of this one chip for the single purpose of preventing it.

And it's not surprising, we all know Apple's position on Unofficial or user repair options.

> you must be able to provide notebook parts and repair as well for the products you sell

You’re proposing commanding companies to erect and maintain new and complex supply chains and packaging schemes. It’s a well-meaning proposal. But it will be costly. That will deter new entrants and increase prices in your market. Do this many times from different perspectives and you end up with a towering bureaucracy and sclerotic economy.

But if "the nature of the goods" required them to ship the laptop to Apple to have a diagnostic run after the repair, and that takes a few weeks?

It doesn't, though. There is nothing fundamental to the concept of a laptop that requires lengthy, licensed repair. That's the point of the law--you're allowed to be realistic about your product's needs, you're not allowed to deliberately make it harder than it has to be, so you can corner the repair market.

you can add all of LATAM to that list. FAIL

Yeah, growing up in New Zealand I fixed many of my own and others' MacBooks/iMacs with aftermarket parts for this reason. We had no official channel, outside of shipping to Australia or further which required a 3-4 week wait, a potential invoice, and of course the entire time you're without a machine. It's a real bummer, because this is still the reality today, and some of these repairs are trivial (i.e battery).

When I upgraded my MacBook Air, I decided to try switching away from Apple. Primarily because the new MBP’s & Air’s were expensive, and all the new feature which made them expensive were things I didn’t want or need. I also wanted to give Linux another shot.

I went for a Dell XPS, and while there are things I don’t like (primarily keyboard & trackpad) I’ve got used to them. (Keyboard still shits me).

But, when the motherboard & power adaptor died on me. A dell technician came to my house the next day, sat at my kitchen table and fixed it on the spot.

After being an Apple customer, my mind was blown!!

They also shipped a new charger. (The tech might have been able to just give me one, but I think the charger might have died shortly after the repair, details).

I will probably stay loyal with my iPhone, primarily for iOS (but my 6S serves me just fine, I have no need to upgrade). But I don’t think I will ever buy another MacBook.

For this reason MacBooks aren't really business devices in my opinion. What kind of business is okay with the service Apple provides? You have to send one employee to the Apple Store (if there is even one located near you), maybe get a replacement device, maybe wait for 2 weeks for it to return? This is so much more expensive than buying Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. with on-site support. On top of that you often get repair manuals for the slightly bulkier models.

Yep! Issues like the above are among the reason I finally threw in the towel on MacOS after 20 years of being a Mac user. Between the precipitous diminution of their hardware repairability and upgradeability, software backward-compatibility problems, and unpalatable service model, it's clear to me that Apple hardware is no longer intended for the person who uses the computer as a tool for work.

After I switched to Linux / Thinkpad and only had to spend five minutes rather than an hour+ upgrading the hard drive, I wondered why I hadn't made the switch years ago [answer: brainwash].

At least in Denmark, the official Apple repair company sends someone to collect the laptop, and posts it back after the repair.

It's still worse than the best Dell etc can offer, but it hasn't taken up too much of my time. The number of necessary repairs is presently very high though.

(I only know about the Dell service in theory. There hasn't been a problem with any of the laptops, and when a server HDD fails I prefer that they just mail the new drive.)

We mitigate this risk by just having a spare device or spare laptop on premises. It works and it's cheap. We use tons of Macs in a business setting, and we're definitely not going back to PC's. The PC's were a nightmare (not in terms of the hardware, but because of the sofware) from a management and administration perspective. Primarily because of Windows. Using Macs running macOS has really been a gamechanger.

As a MacBook owner MacOS feels like abandonware to me.

When I reboot into Bootcamp and Windows 10 I feel like I'm using a machine 10 years in the future.

Whereas when I boot my games box into Windows 10 and it sits there saying "Applying updates" for 45 minutes before rebooting and then thrashing itself into unusability for another 45-60 minutes doing ... something ... I feel like I'm being trolled by MS.

I have the same experience with the force upgrades of OSX (due to xcode). Download is big, require massive 21G of free space, takes ages to update on older MBPs, everything gets more sluggish after the update and crashes more often...

That's just once per year?

Microsoft throws away all of your open work at least every month. NSDocument alone is 25% of the reason I stay with macOS.

I haven't used XCode in a while, but I was always amazed when I had to download the entire, massive, application every update. Android Studio has fairly consistent updates that are around 150-500mb on average.

You can turn this off. I haven't done an update in at least a year.

Wow. So you don’t apply security patches? Or am I not understanding what you are saying?

And then proceeds to show you adverts

In what world is OS X more manageable on a large scale than Windows, that's the reason it's used in every large business to start with.

It's not large scale though. But if you have 50-100 fairly clued up users, macOS is better by an order of magnitude in terms of internal computer support tickets. The last people we had using Windows were struggling with all kinds of Windows-related issues and also the fact that Windows has bizarrely become terribly user-hostile. The UI is absolutely atrocious, in my opinion.

> The PC's were a nightmare (not in terms of the hardware, but because of the sofware) from a management and administration perspective. Primarily because of Windows.

That's a human skills problem, not a software problem. Managing a large fleet of Windows PC's is a solved problem if your sysadmins know Active Directory. There are also third party solutions if Active Directory isn't your bag (we used one at a previous company to manage a large fleet of Windows PC's and servers - its name escapes me at the moment).

>What kind of business is okay with the service Apple provides?

Bunch of large enterprises do this and contract the service/management to people like IBM. Employees demand it and these days are likely to get Macs as an option.

I've been using a 2014 rMBP for the last 3 years at my job. Getting a Dell for my refresh next month. Dont want to keep fighting with MS Office on Mac anymore.

What do you mean? Large enterprises will surely staff and train their own Mac support staff. I went to my companies walk up support desk in my building for an HP Zbook issue. They had a few Macs taken apart they were fixing.

Apple stores are for consumers like you and me. No large company is going to send an employee there. It’s likely the company has support contract with Apple or a 3rd party.

Beside you can just overnight your laptop to Apple for repairs anyway.

I was an employee in a startup and had to take my MacBook Pro to the Apple store myself when it had recurring kernel panics. They bought a new MacBook Pro in the meantime for me to use, since there weren't any spares available at that time and Apple doesn't provide loaners. Since then, the machines have gotten even more expensive, the extras have been reduced and they've gotten less reliable. Only Apple fanboyism keeps the brand alive in companies, usually when someone influential likes having a MacBook and an iPhone.

Not every company is big enough to have service contracts with Apple. The IT department (two people) at that startup could fix Lenovo and HP machines thanks to them being the business models.

Yes I agree for startups but middle to large size companies would probably have a dedicated Apple guy. It’s why I said large entprises.

Even startups can get service at Apple stores but if there’s not one close by in can be a serious pain.

Large enterprises are not what I'm talking about. Those already have large-scale support contracts and don't need the on-site support for each device. I'm talking about small to medium businesses and freelancers. Those often don't have the money to have a spare $2,500 laptop around just in case the manufacturer needs 2-3 weeks to repair the broken computer.

Apple Enterprise support programs exist. They're partially ran by IBM and on-site.

Has somebody experience with this? Is it comparable with Dell's?

I had a dell XPS laptop for work a long time ago, and it was one of those desktop replacement models with a desktop GPU. I was extremely unlucky and it happened to have a doomed GPU model - bumpgate, I think - so it would typically fail after a few months.

Dell came to my workplace during work hours, on a day's notice, 6 different times, to replace the GPU for free because it was under warranty.

I've had some bad experiences with Dell in the years since (their monitors have absolutely horrible firmware now so I can't recommend buying them anymore) but their warranty service was great then and is still pretty great now. Cross-ship RMA for things like monitors is a great perk.

That option for on-site tech support is pretty good, but very very expensive.

In the UK at least, all XPS devices come with on-site repair included in the warranty.

Back in 2014 when I got it for 3 years, it was at around the same price as AppleCare at the time for an equivalent device. I don't remember the exact price, but I do remember thinking that the price was about the same as AppleCare.

Look into Asus laptops. Doesn't have to be ROG but very much worth the money

Asus? I damaged my Asus panel myself and they refuse to repair it (no warrenty claim, just "here, take my money, fix it plz") or sell me replacement parts.

Never again.

HP also offers on site customer service. I bought the next business day one for the laptop I'm using right now. I payed it a less than 100 Euro for 36 months in 2014. It's more than 100 Euro for each following 12 months period. This should be telling about their expectations of durability and/or availability of spares.

I got the screen replaced for free at home after about one year (a failing contact in the hinges). I sent them a video recorded with my phone to demonstrate the problem. The technician came the next day.

I had to change the keyboard twice (an arrow key years ago and the left ctrl-shift keys died a few months ago). The customer service doen't replace keyboards but the replacement parts are cheap. I bought them on Amazon and looked at videos on YouTube to learn how disassemble and reassemble the laptop (a ZBook 15 first series.) I like that I can open it and replace RAM and disks, which I did. I could even replace CPU and GPU much like in desktops. OK, it's 3 kg and not slim, but it's worth the extra weight and size.

I just replaced the keyboards in two older (2011 and 2013) long out-of-warranty MacBook Pros. Both required the complete disassembly of the machine. One fix cost about $150 in parts and the other was less. If I'd been required to let Apple do the work, each machine's repair would have cost at least $500, and that assumes Apple would even have been willing to repair such old machines.

Apple just gave me yet another reason not to buy a new MBP and to keep milking my old ones along.

I had a 2013 Samsung ATIV Book and when the keys began to fail, I attempted to replace the keyboard. This is something that took < 5min on my 2008 HP laptop but was now impossible, because Samsung decided to glue and mold the keyboard onto the actual case.

So this isn't a problem limited to Apple, apparently most manufacturers decided that devices need to be as unfixable as possible.

More likely they decided devices needed to be as light and cheap to manufacture as possible and a by-product of that is being unfixable.

It might be the result of a compromise but it is still an active choice. I think it is within the remit of a designer to think how the product will be serviced.

Some designers maybe. Jony Ive clearly couldn't care less about repairability.

If he's selling Apple Care insurance, I bet he does (one way or another)

> glue and mold into tha actual case

Which is what Apple has been doing to their laptop batteries, for years.

Blows my mind.

Did you actually get a quote / estimate from Apple?

But the heat sink is just (1) remove bottom case, (2) unplug battery, (3a) remove heat sink (if Retina model) or (3b) remove motherboard, then heat sink from the other side. The keyboard is part of the top case, which is the part everything else is attached to.

Exactly. I can replace the battery, hard drive, or RAM of an older MBP in 15 minutes, but replacing the keyboard is at least a 3-hour operation.

Last year, my macbook (mid-2012 non-retina) starting acting funky (wouldn't boot half the time and would lock up intermittently). I took it in to the Apple Store (after I had made a reservation and had to wait a week) and the technician looked at it for a few minutes and said it was probably a logic board problem and that it would be about $900 IIRC and suggested I not even bother as it would be ineligible for repair soon anyways...suggested I just buy a new one.

I found a 3rd party repair shop down the road. Took it in, they did some diagnostics on it while I was standing there and confirmed it was a harddrive cable issue...they said it was a common issue for these models. Quoted me $100 (mostly for labor) and said I could wait or come back tomorrow...I decided on the latter. On my way home, they called and said it was ready for pickup. They said the cable was under warranty and bring it back if I have any more issues...fingers crossed it has been running great ever since.

I really enjoy my macbook, I had wanted one for years and finally saved enough money to purchase one in 2012 (I believe it was about $1200). I also made upgrades to the HD (changed to SSD) and upgraded the RAM as I didn't have the $ to buy all the upgrades at time of purchase but knew I wanted to make it better over the years. It has allowed me to work on iOS and use a great OS while still have access to UNIX bash. That said, I don't think I would buy the latest model...probably out of principal (I disagree with the high cost, the inability to upgrade the machine and the gimmicks being added rather than making it a Pro device). I might try to find a 2015 model the day my 2012 dies but I don't really think I could justify a $3000 purchase on an item that I can only take back to the manufacturer for a solution...should a problem ever arise.

I doubt any of this matters to you, just wanted to share my experience.

This is true for farmers in many places who buy or lease machinery from companies like John Deere. Using IOT, Deere can tell when a non-OEM part has been installed and they can remotely disable the machine until the "proper" part has been installed. Their customers are locked into their parts and service.

Here's [0] a nice article from Vice which discusses the Tractor-Hacking movement and the wider push for right-to-repair.

[0] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kzp7ny/tractor-ha...

To be fair, there is a pretty big difference between something like a tractor, where most of the parts are simply large pieces of machined metal, and something like a computer where most of the parts are not repairable and, due to security concerns which benefit the customer, there are things like secure enclaves which may entail chain of custody concerns to be properly replaced.

If a secure enclave requires chain of custody for replacement, is it even secure? If it was possible to circumvent by replacing a hardware module, wouldn't law enforcement/(industrial or government) spies/thieves/etc. just do that?

It isn’t possible to circumvent it; it just won’t work if it’s repaired outside of a trusted chain of custody.

A modern tractor isn't simply a bunch of machined metal, they have several computers on board, including integrated laptops with vendor branding, to control various equipment or the engine or many other things. Several of these parts are not repairable and need to be swapped entirely (if you want a taste of this; modern car lighting assemblies with LEDs can't have individual sections replaced, the entire assembly needs to be swapped).

What you’re saying is true. What I’m saying is also true. I worked in construction for a while. The equipment is similar. Most of the repairs are fixing worn out or broken pieces of machined metal or broken or leaky hydraulic lines, not electronics.

Phones are different. Usually repairs on a phone involve replacing a piece of highly integrated electronics, not a work out or broken piece of metal or plastic.

Security is a completely baseless excuse here. Apple could easily provide a repair unlock key to users via their Apple accounts.

Fact. Considering the financial situation of the vast majority of farmers, this gets me furious. Independent agriculture advocate and "Apple Grower" author Michael Phillips strongly suggests using 50-year-old tractors, etc, for just this reason.

p.s., in addition, a significant proportion of Deere's manufacturing is now overseas / outsourced -- but of course they still trade on their historical image as an American working-class icon.

These videos created by a third party Apple repair shop convinced me to ditch Apple: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sor...

He goes into the poor practices they use in manufacturing in general that literally every other manufacturer gets right. They might use under-sized capacitors to save room on the board. The first "unibody" they advertised had two aluminum parts glued together. Some of their repairs for recall-level issues amounted to burning the board, which masks the problem and kicks the can down the road until your warranty runs out. They actively fight your right to repair.

I like how their products look and work, but they really make unreliable products that look and feel premium with substandard engineering, overcharge, perform shockingly shoddy first party repair and generally try to shift blame to customers.

So, for the engineering, you'd want to get AppleCare.. a very expensive extended warranty, on an already overpriced machine, where they will give you refurbished boards/computers, using their own often highly questionable repair tactics, like placing rubber over things to push it harder onto the board instead of re-soldering, or baking the board to mask problems.

One small note: Every single OEM sends out refurb'd major components, that is not a behavior unique to Apple.

Rossmann is advertising his own repair shop with those videos. And of course he sees only the bad stuff, since he repairs the broken ones.

MKBHD explains the issue pretty well here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM

tl;dr Apple produces craptons of stuff, if just 0.01% of it fails, it's thousands of devices - and those users jump to social media to bitch about it, making it seem like a huge number of devices is affected.

FWIW every single Apple user I know had problems. From the deliberately ill-engineered flimsy cables to the Apple's BSOD-equivalent.

None of them upgrade their iOS firmware. Even grandmas know not to click "update".

BTW thanks for the UI dark patterns Apple assholes.

This is a shame and another setback for Macbooks / Macs. I'd agree with "planned obselescense" over security being the motive as the article pointed out. This will also not hurt Apple in the slightest, only their consumers who are blinded by their unwavering loyalty to the brand.

Sent from my iPhone

"Sent from my iPhone" - nice!

I bought my last ever Apple product, an IPad v1 and was dismayed when less than 2.5 years later it stopped receiving OS updates. Its battery still lasts 20 hours and yet bugs in the browser makes it crash on so many modern web pages. I can get an Android tablet every year for $70 if I just want something I'm going to throw away.

That's the problem with early versions of products though, from any manufacturer. My wife has an original iPad Air, released in 2013, and it just got iOS 12. But it has a 64bit CPU.

EDIT: I misread the comment I'm replying to. Parent makes a valid point. Ignore the following.

You're actually complaining that a consumer computing appliance you bought received OS updates for 6 years? And your proposed better alternative is buying a device that will probably never receive an OS update?

The last OS update the first-generation iPad received was iOS 5.1.1, released just over two years after the first-generation iPad was released.

The first-generation iPad was a bit of an odd case for software updates, though (due to insufficient RAM); every other iPad has gotten at least four or five major updates before losing support. And Apple has yet to drop support for any iPads from the iPad Air on (October 2013).

I totally misread the person I responded to. Thanks for setting me straight.

The iPad 1 was pretty much the worst case, if you bought just before it was discontinued then you would have got 14 months of updates.

We had one and upgraded for the reasons you mentioned, it couldn't cope with JavaScript heavy web sites. However even without the bugs I don't think it had the horsepower to handle the modern web, no amount of updates would have fixed that.

iOS 12 supports devices back to the iPhone 5s, so more than 5 years.

I’m not “blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand” but the suggestion that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is ridiculous.

I’m a normal guy who works in IT and does pretty much everything with my MBP. Work (Citrix, email, Office), play (Logic, Lightroom), development (Sublime, Chrome, the Terminal) ... I mean come on.

For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. I’m all-in on the Apple ecosystem for a damned good reason and, while I may not love this approach to repairs, that does not make me an unwavering loyalist.

Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

I'm a developer. I just bought a 2018 MBP. I seriously thought about jumping ship to Linux. If I'd known about this, I would have.

Yeah, you folks are the ones making all the noise. Meanwhile the silent majority just doesn't care at all. I haven't performed hardware repairs on a computer in more than a decade and don't plant to start any time soon.

Most customers don't care, they don't care about repairability because modern devices are so reliable, they don't care about upgradeability because they bought the appropriate spec in the first place. Even if it does fail they don't really care about the cost of repair because they bought a premium product and their expectations are set accordingly.

Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think, just look at the growing popularity of repair cafes.

To me the issue is that devices are made to appear obsolete, a marketing scheme to boost profit, in a limited time frame and replaced instead of repaired not because they are reliable (for example the lawsuit for prone to breaking keys on recent macbooka[1]).

People who care about upgradeability are people who know better and the vast majority does not and endure lack of performance from their badly chosen device for years due to not having enough money to replace them.

Just look at the sheer quantity of people using expensive smartphones despite broken glass, damaged screens and slowly failing touch because they cannot afford the cost of repair. This alone is tell sign that the cost of repair is a serious and significant issue.

[1]: http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-key...

FWIW, I upgraded a 5+ year old MacBook Air to the new MacBook Pro basically because I wanted to. I think the screen was the main driver, but really there was nothing wrong with that Air; as evidenced by the fact that a good friend is now using it as her primary computer.

Planned obsolence is another meme that needs to die.

Regarding the cost of screens for a phone, what, you wish they were lower? Me too! But they aren’t, if you want an original Apple screen. They cost a bunch to source ($110) [0], they cost a bunch for Apple to train up techs, and to have the systems and procedures and checklists such that every time you get an Apple replacement, it’s like new.

Would everyone who dropped their phone wish for a $20 replacement? Of course. Tough luck.

I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple.

You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would.

[0]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-c...

>I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple.

>You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would.

Your example with the screen would be similar to changing say a car part you are forced to go to the manufacturer to get the original part, the fun part is that the windscreen is half the price of a new car so you now start considering buying a new car or gluing your windscreen.

So Apple does not sell parts, forces you to use their repair shops and tax you tons for simple repairs, PLUS they make you pay for their own faults until some class action forces them to admit the hardware faults.

I never seen companies suffer PR impact because someone repaired their old phone/laptop/computer/electronic at a third party.

My points stand for products that are out of warranty, if products are in warranty then the laws apply.

A car doesn’t store all your personal private data, so your analogy doesn’t fit.

Neither a laptop, the data is in the harddrive, you can protect the drive encryption without putting software checks so if I put a "unauthorized" component the thing won't work anymore.

A car also starts at $15k, so a windshield being half the cost of a car is not reasonable, whereas a new screen plus labor being 1/5th the cost of a phone is.

A simple example, there are 2 old Macbooks, no warrenty, one has the screen broken one the motherboard, Apple will not sell me a screen, maybe there are no more screens or if they want to sell me the screen and replace it, it could cost me half of a new laptop .

I could use the good screen from the broken laptop and give a few more years to this old laptop instead of throwing the good components to the bin. Third party repair shops have salvaged this components and they will install them to the customers, everyone wins except Apple who is not selling a new laptop or a new screen+services.

This issue happened with iPhones where changing a button bricked the phone a few months later when Apple did an update, the excuse was security but it was only an excuse, you could keep the security too, worse case scenario wipe the data but don't force people to throw old hardware because is too expensive or impossible to repair.

I didn't use to care about repairability because Apple laptops used to be pretty solid - by the time they give up, you want to buy the latest generation (with vastly more power & speed) anyway.

But recently, I'm having so many problems (that damn 2016 MBP) that repairability looms large.

Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think

If they really cared it would be reflected in what they buy.

People who care about upgradeability are people who know better

I see, you are so smart and the rest of us are sheep like idiots for buying products they can't repair.

> If they really cared it would be reflected in what they buy.

This is wishful thinking, caring about repairability does not magically make such devices appear on store shelves.

Besides people caring about repairability often have few option due to limited budget which is often why they care for repairability in the first place.

> I see, you are so smart and the rest of us are sheep like idiots for buying products they can't repair.

Being knowledgeable about a kind of product has nothing to do with being an idiot. Not knowing that you can buy a 4GB RAM with mid range cpu computer now, and upgrade to 8GB and better cpu later does not make you an idiot. To each her own field of expertise and most people are not computer hardware expert or do not have the luxury of having time to spend on this.

I'm mostly in the same boat as you, but I've had consistently poor experiences with MBPs and the MacOS ecosystem in general since roughly 2013.

At the beginning of this year I was in the market for a new personal laptop -- even though I got to keep a top end new MBP from my last job, I couldn't consider it reliable (and it hasn't been) so I got a ThinkPad X270. It ended up being a fantastic decision and I've never been happier with a laptop.

I switched my workstation at my job over to Arch Linux this week after not having run desktop Linux in roughly 10 years and the experience is _miles_ better already.

I'll continue to use iOS devices, but I am done with MacOS and Mac hardware forever.

In case anyone asks: XMonad

Did you already use haskell?

Never. I had a vague, casual familiarity with the syntax and got together a working configuration for my monitor setup and preferences in 20 minutes though.

For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.

> Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

That's a feature, in every category of electronoic life I have multiple companies competing to provide me with nearly everything I want.

> For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on.

That whole paragraph sounds like an ad.

“For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.”

That’ll be a logical fallacy whose name I can’t be arsed finding.

I sure do love not having to deal with a bunch of shit just to keep my computers (phones, tablets, watches, earphones, tv) running. That’s what I love.

This sad trope of the Apple fanboy needs to die. Just because I love not having to deal with all the crap does not mean that I love Apple to the depths of my heart. Would I prefer it if they didn’t lock independent repairers out of their new MacBooks? Sure! (Well “probably”, I haven’t considered all of the security implications. But probably!)

Does that mean I’ll stick by them, no matter, what, for eternity? Of course not. If they start to fuck things up, I’ll look for something better.

The point is, right now, there is nothing better. Don’t lie to me and tell me that Linux on a Dell is better. It is not. It is different in some ways, some of which may be important enough to you such that you classify it as “better”. But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Does that make me a sad fanboy? Shame on you if you think so.

> But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is.

Have any evidence to back up that spurious claim?

The posts above listed a lot of evidence. Maybe you’d care to read them, since you ask. Or provide your own counter evidence.

I'm sorry but anecdotes do not prove that something is objectively better, and if the argument is built on anecdotes, then the argument should be rejected.

Also if you make a claim that something is objectively better than the alternative then the burden of proof is on you to show why it is, objectively, better.

That's only one way to assess reality. There are other ways, just as valid. We're not in a debate club here.

> But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is.

Sorry but that is simply delusional. Cost alone makes Apple products non-starter for a lot of "everymen" (assuming you don't mean by that US upper middle class), as is "objectively" backed up by market share stats (same assumption).

Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux.

Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine.

Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts are even supposed to be pretty good.

The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac.

Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop.

Just admit you're a fanboy.

I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform linux/win/macos.

[1]: https://www.darktable.org/ [2]: https://www.bitwig.com/

Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.

It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.

It’s not like they weren’t fucking awful either.

So now to get "just as good, but cheaper" laptop which isn't as light or thin since somehow thouse aren't the primary functions of a laptop. I now should also buy a new expensive phone which sends all of my data to Google or I would have to buy the same phone and then research how to install 3rd party ROM which gets updated months later than stock Android and has god knows what security holes. Then I'd need to spend even more money on new watch/health tracker that syncronized seamlessly with both my new phone and my laptop.

Before you get your panties on a knot I run both Windows and Linux and at home whole trifecta Windows, Linux, and OS X

> Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

With serious build quality issues. Mine are literally falling apart.

> So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop.

Neither windows nor linux come close to how seamless macOS is. Keyboard navigation with consistent shortcuts across apps and a fantastic touch pad. Watching someone use Windows (a developer even) is like nails on a blackboard. They move unbelievably slow and take forever to do something.

> apple-only, apple-only, apple user lock-in, apple walled garden, apple. > don't tell me I can do this with something else than apple.

Of you cannot play windows game on your linux box and you cannot get the same experience you have in the walled garden outside of it unless you change and adapt you devices.

I have a client with a Linux ecosystem and a single iphone, apple does not provide itunes for linux so making backup and generally dealing with the iphone required buying a second hand windows laptop specifically to deal with this because with each update of the iphone OS apple breaks previous compatibility with linux that had been added by enthusiasts.

I have a thinkpad running linux, it is cheaper, more powerful, thin (though this is not important), trivial to keep up-to-date, repairable, serviceable on site. I've set up a seamless sync for my computerphone which I use exclusively for phone calls, SMS and as a clock (no need for a gadget computerwatch that cannot even tell what time it is for 24h straight), lastly I do not use wireless headphones but I could if I wanted to.

I'm out of the apple prison-system for a damned good reason too, it's overhyped, very expensive, is often not compatible with hardware outside it (could it be a reason you're all in on the apple walled garden ?), does not allow me to do what I choose, engage in huge amount of tax evasion with significant social consequences, locks user in, relies on free software makes huge profit but doesn't donate back and it goes on and on.

What you describes here is nothing else than the existence of an impenetrable wall designed and built by apple to keep control and increase their profit, you choose to live inside the wall and I choose to live outside.

We, outsiders, like to think people choosing to live inside the wall do so because they are blinded not because they are evil as this is easier on us than riskig losing faith in humanity.

Basically everyone in my family used to call me for tech support (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins), but in the past 3 years or so, I’ve convinced everyone to iPhones and iPads and MacBook Airs, they have have basically zero tech support calls to me. Everything just works as long as they keep track of their Apple ID and iCloud login. There is definitely value to not spending any time or brain cycles worrying about how to do something, and having everything integrated and always working.

With Windows, it’s always update this, restart that, where is this menu option, drivers? It’s not for people who don’t want to spend their time figuring that stuff out. Plus Microsoft is not as trustworthy of a brand.

With Portuguese salaries it is cheaper to spend the difference sending the family members to our trustworthy PC repair shop and there is still budget left after a couple of years.

After upgrading every older family member to Chromebook, I have had zero calls for support.

Apple isn't the only game in town.

After doing something similar, I get tons of calls because no one knows how to use anything with it and stuff they want just isn't compatible.

Plus, you're 100% tied into google. Everything google - so how can that be considered an alternative?

Unfortunately, Google has lost all of its goodwill with lack of software updates for their products, lack of battery/power efficiency, and constantly changing names, designs, apps. I tried it, people in my network tried to invest their time into it, at the end everyone just said screw it and went with Apple products. Bonus is Apple stuff re-sells for quite a bit also or lasts much longer, so effectively it doesn't actually cost more.

I know I sound like a fanboy, but after playing with Nexus phones, Xperia phones, Android tablets, Surface book, Lenovo Yogapad, I have decided that I no longer want to invest anymore time into figuring out how to get all of these to work the way I want them to, and the extra cost (if that) for Apple stuff is much cheaper than the time I used to waste on the other stuff.

Fun thing, I was in the exact same situation so I told them I would only provide support if they switched to Linux (no need to buy new hardware) and got similar results: support call lowered dramatically to almost none (except when mozilla forces stupid changes on users in firefox, solved by dropping firefox for waterfox, or when systemd breaks something that work perfectly before update).

99% of their needs are covered for a total cost of 0, only remaining pita is the odd iphone owned by teen cousin wanting to boast social status and missing itunes so he bought a macbook and has a variety of issues with it.

Implying that "unwavering loyalty to the brand" is the only reason to want this. I like that my computer is locked down and potentially less vulnerable to random attacks thanks to proprietary locks designed and reviewed by security experts.

(I also use an iPhone for this reason.)

I'm actually a little disappointed in Apple's service considering the cost of their hardware and the cost of AppleCare.

Back in the 80s and 90s many companies excellent service was you'd call customer support, they'd express ship you a replacement for free and you'd send back the broken item. They would take your credit card number just in case you didn't send the broken item back but otherwise it was on their dime.

I had this experience with NEC 21 inch monitors, 2 different video card companies, and Matrox hard drives as just 4 companies off the top of my head. Yes, NEC FedExed me 70lbd 21 inch monitors over night. No idea what it cost them but the monitor cost me around $2500 in 1995, certainly comparible to an MBP.

Compare to Apple, they were going to service my MacbookPro and I was without it for 2 weeks. The only reason I was able to get by is I had just bought a new Windows laptop for VR so I'd have something to use while they serviced the MBP.

It made me wonder why they couldn't do it the way those other companies did. Send me the new machine, I'll transfer my data, wipe the old machine, send it back. Even if my old machine is unusable (and therefore I can't get the data off) I'd still prefer the instance service I use to get. Just give me a new machine, factor that into the cost.

The fact that they didn't do as good a job as those other companies was disappointing.

They generally do a better job if you have a nearby Apple Store (an official not a third party one). Unfortunately if you don't have one of those you end up a little worse off.

On the plus side, most brands don't have stores in the majority of non major cities. Apple Does. So they're ahead of a lot of brands in that regards.

You can get repairs usually done same day or within 1 or 2 days in the worst case if you can walk into an Apple Store in most cases (with some exceptions obviously) - for both iPhone and Mac.

EDIT: The comment below points out they only have stores in 22 countries. I agree in some regards that is low but I would suggest it is probably high compared to many brands for not requiring a 2 week turnaround as you had above.

I think the main issue here is the availability of repairs, if my sony ps4 breaks down, I most likely won't take it to sony as they will take 3 weeks to send it back. I'll prolly take it to an individual shop and get it done within a day.

Also the other downside e.g for iphones is that apple is not selling genuine screens... you broke your screen on your $1500 iphone? cause thats how much it costs in the EU... you will get a knockoff screen if you want to get it done in a day, if you want you can wait 4-5 weeks for them to get back to you, unless you live in london, paris, berlin etc.

The repair experience for MacBooks (not iOS!) is abysmal, even at Apple Stores. Whereas other vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo) will happily send you customer-replaceable parts (keyboards, disks, etc.) or a technician for on-site NBD repairs even with their standard warranty plans, Apple requires you to buy Apple Care (~10% premium) and then you still have to wait for appointments and repairs at the Genius Bar. This can easily take a week or two, and they do not provide a loaner devices so you’re without your computer for the duration of the repair. I’ve been told that there are professional Apple Care plans that do provide them, but they come at a (even higher) price.

Are MacBooks really that expensive? The MacBook Pro retina with 516ssd is a lot cheaper than the Microsoft surface book and around similar to the XSP, but the XSP is much lower quality.

Dell XPS laptops have user-upgradable RAM and SSDs.

The RAM is soldered on.

This is incorrect, at least on 9550 / 9560. It's extremely easy to upgrade both of them, just open the back without even fully disassembling the machine.

It is the case for the 13-inch ones.

An i9 macbook pro is 3100 with Applecare and tax its 3800. If you don't buy the Applecare they can charge you whatever they like to fix it because you wont be able to take it elsewhere. Have fun when a new battery costs you $250.

Regarding the XPS with 6 cores, 16GB ram, 512 ssd it still comes in closer to 2K you could bank the extra 1800 and use part of it to have it fixed if you dropped it.

The surface laptop 2 seems to start at around 1K doesn't appear to be the in the same ballpark although with integrated graphics, a lesser display, and lesser processor it also doesn't look to be in the same class.

You can buy a MacBook Pro 13" 2018 edition with retina and 512gb for 13000 danish kr, if you use the students discount. A similarly specced 13" XPS is around 12000-14000 danish kr.

A 512gb surface book is at least 21000 danish kr, because it only ships with the 15". A 256gb one is around 12000-13000 danish kr.

FWIW my experience has been mostly ok, there have been highlights and one pretty major let down. This comment copied from elsewhere in this comment section:

edit: I should also point out, I've never bought AppleCare.

I have had a few run-ins with Apple over the years. Mostly semi-positive. These have been where I've had to take my main work machine in for repair and they've quoted me 14 days, but then turned the repair around in a few days. They've also often thrown in unrelated free stuff too. Last time when I took my Macbook Pro in for the free screen replacement (due to delamination) they also replaced the battery (it was bulging slightly apparently, I'd not noticed) and top case (the trackpad click wasn't reliable), totally free and not required (years out of warranty).

The one case that really sticks in my mind though was when I took a 13" Macbook (pro I think) in to have the keyboard replaced (the trackpad stuck). It was a US model with a US keyboard that I'd bought off the company I used to work for, and I figured that while they were replacing the keyboard they may as well put a UK keyboard on. The Apple reps on the phone, then in store both said this was a reasonable request (as I also thought) and so I left it with them.

I get a call a day or so later saying that they couldn't do the repair because "they had to replace components like for like". Bear in mind this was a paid for repair, not under warranty. I was willing to pay for the parts and labour. Apple confirmed that the new UK keyboard would work, but they weren't allowed to repair the laptop with a different keyboard. Nothing I could do could change their mind, I'd hit a complete brick wall. No keyboards could magically fall through the cracks in the back room and no favours could be done. As reasonable a request that all involved continued to think this was, they wouldn't do anything.

They even called around local apple dealers and none of them would do it either because they were all constrained by Apple's back-office systems.

In the end I bought a genuine, brand-new top case (keyboard, trackpad, integrated battery) off eBay and did the work myself, it worked just fine. No idea where it came from originally.

I guess this shattered any remaining idea I had that Apple was anything other than a machine. The operations side made so efficient by Tim Cook is also incredibly inflexible and as soon as you stray outside the bounds of what it has accounted for you hit a wall. As friendly as the geniuses and store employees are, Apple is not your friend.

Can the T2 chip be accessed via a publicly accessible API? Or would some reverse engineering be required?

Since the third party check is software based, it's theoretically possible to write a piece of software that could either overwrite the flag on the T2 chip or man-in-the-middle spoof the return value to relevant applications.

EDIT:

I'm also curious to find out whether it's the OS or EFI that's performing the check. Because if it's Mac OS, the easy "hack" fix would be to use an alternate OS such as Windows or Linux that doesn't care about the T2 chip. But I guess that would defeat the purpose of buying a Macbook Pro in the first place.

Also, now that I think about it, if the check is in EFI then you're kinda screwed since you can't really patch it preemptively or man-in-the-middle it without booting an OS first...

...No wait, that's why projects like rEFInd exist. I guess someone could write a custom EFI manager that would bypass the check. Just install rEFInd first before replacing parts.

Seems that this is super hackable and is just a matter of time until we are able to spoof the flag.

The check in question is likely happening on the T2 itself; it's a small ARM processor (derived from the ones used in iOS devices) running its own OS (a variant of watchOS, which is itself ultimately a derivative of macOS).

Among other things, it's responsible for the early boot process; it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things don't look right.

> it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things don't look right

Well crap. There goes my ideas.

Isn't the whole point of the T2 chip to prevent these kinds of attacks?

The T2 starts the boot process and verifies the integrity of the system (including OS) and you can't flash the T2 without a digital signature from Apple.

Unless someone finds a serious flaw in the system, or one of Apple's signing keys is leaked, I don't see how you'd circumvent it.

FWIW, Windows does care about the T2 chip:

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3290415/apple-mac/the-...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208330

Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start.

This change affects “display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board”. I could see wanting an alternate, after-market keyboard, but otherwise am happy to stick with Apple parts. The main hindrance, as others point out, seems to be for people in sparser areas with no authorized repair shop.

> Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage

They still can, by purchasing an older laptop or newer "business class" device. A 2011 Sandy-bridge Thinkpad is perfectly usable even today, and is serviceable in most aspects from battery, SATA/PCIe slots, aftermarket display, and even the CPU on some models.

> Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start.

Which is exactly why it's so important to have the freedom to repair. It's no longer a simple SSD swap that any end-user can perform themselves, now to do any such repairs you need specialized tools, knowledge of circuitry, and even a dedicated lab. For Apple to hinder these efforts is Apple turning otherwise perfectly serviceable parts into disposable junk that only they have the capacity to repair - it doesn't need to be like this.

> The main hindrance

What about the hindrance in being restricted in servicing and repairing something you paid for and own? Have you heard about John Deere and their practices?

Yep. Lenovo T-series laptops are still chock full of Field Replaceable Units (FRUs). And they still publish the maintenance manual to tell you exactly how to replace them: https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf

Word. T520 / T61 user here -- upgrades and repairs are a breeze compared to when I was using an MBP -- to say nothing of the design that is actually ergonomically sound [within reason] as opposed to merely cool-looking

My p51 has upgradable storage, an extra slot for more m2 storage and I can double the ram.

The obvious tradeoff is that it is heavier and thicker than similar machines. Also the power brick is gigantic.

Requiring authorized/first party repair is manifestly bad. Consider what the automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.

See also: John Deere and tractor repair.

It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog.

But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed.

> It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog.

That's growing pains though. Give it a few years and there should be greater parts availability and independent electric car repair shops.

> But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed.

There are a lot of bad mechanics out there. The trouble is as many of them work for the dealerships as not, so it's not much of a filter in general. Even if the quality at dealerships is slightly higher, the possibility of going to an independent shop is the only thing keeping their prices in check. Or their service quality for that matter.

You'll find no trouble getting service for your ten year old car. Ask Apple to support your ten year old iPhone.

Car dealers love repairing cars because the repair shop is where most of their profit comes from. Not so with Apple, which makes most of their profit on hardware sales. I expect this is at least partly a ploy by Apple to discourage repairs altogether, so they can sell more new hardware. Virtually all of Apple's behavior for the last 10 years has supported that idea.

You are explaining why Apple prefers to do it this way, not why a customer or legislator should prefer it.

I've watches some videos on youtube of guys who try to salvage Tesla's. I am not sure if these are growing pains or if Tesla is just more interested in a model without independent mechanics.

In these videos it seems more that Tesla is VERY hostile against people who repair their car. They have no access whatsoever to parts, so their only chance is to buy damaged cars and salvage the parts. My feeling was that it was very hard for the owners to keep the cars updated and to super charge these cars.

My experience with dealers repairs and independent contractors is that most of the dealers change assembly groups and good mechanics change what's damaged. You've got less problems if you change assembly groups but it is way more expensive.

Using used parts for repairs is normal practice. It makes little sense to manufacture a new body panel when there is a perfectly good one from a vehicle with a bad drivetrain just sitting there in a junkyard.

The trouble right now is because Tesla has only recently started delivering in meaningful volumes, there is no big supply of them in junkyards to pull parts from. And for much the same reason there are no independent parts suppliers yet, so the company has a temporary monopoly on parts.

Whether their attitude changes when the parts monopoly erodes remains to be seen, but competition has a way of shifting corporate behavior.

And some of the current behavior is within reason, e.g. if you have free supercharging it's not so you can modify your car to sell that power back to the grid, or take the VIN of a wrecked car with free supercharging and try to transfer it to an entirely different car by exchanging a couple of parts. There has to be some process to make sure that's not what's happening.

While it’s not automotive, the farming industry has fallen victim to this at the hands of John Deere. Although, they can still use “authorized” dealers for repairs, there has become a black market for software and repairs. [1]

[1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xykkkd/why-americ...

> Consider what the automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.

It more or less is that way already, have you had a recent car in the shop? With the diagnostics and systems in all cars going more digital every day, there are lots of things a local independent mechanic can’t fix anymore. I’ve been pushed to the dealer with foreign and domestic brands alike.

You don't need to imagine it. Just look at Tesla. Lots of customers in Norway for example wait months to get service. Nobody can get parts to do even simple repairs themselves, because Tesla will not sell them.

... and anyone who likes to keep their system a good long time https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

Given the lackluster upgrade options in the last 5+ years, I can see a lot of people trying to hang on to their next/last PC as long as possible. Now they'll have no options once Apple decides their system is done.

Not to mention the limits being reached into raw processor power. Hanging on to our devices (and receiving software updates) makes a lot of sense from the user's point of view.

I find it disgusting that Apple labels my iPad 3 "vintage" and refuses to give it updates, not even browser updates or security patches. They cannot claim to be looking after this planet's interests or user interests by abandoning their hardware after only a pathetic 5 years. They need to step up and offer a solution to an e-waste problem they are creating in the first place.

Apple does offer a trade-in and recycling program so that old devices can be properly disposed of. https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in

That's clearly not the point, and a lousy suggestion.

Why would I want to "dispose of" perfectly functioning hardware which has no fault except for reaching an artificial expiry date imposed by its maker?

The best way to help the environment is to build things that last, keeping them alive for as long as possible if people choose to do that.

Apple says NO, they don't give a stuff. "Buy a new ipad because you'll be supporting Apple, and we make millions of the things, there's unlimited Earth resources allowing us to do that."

I just spent a day eviscerating my 2012 unibody MacBook Pro to replace its keyboard and battery. It’s a little depressing to think that after over 2 decades of using Apple hardware and software it will probably be the last thing I ever buy from them.

I bought my first Mac (which was also the first Mac) in 1984, and between purchases for work, home, and family I've probably spent upwards of $300K on Apple products since then.

Now I'm done. And yeah, it's sad. But Apple left me; I didn't leave them.

Just curious: have you really purchased an average of 6 $1500 Apple products per year? If so, why? Say devices last 5 years, do you own 30 laptops/etc. at any given time?

Most of that dollar figure was for work, and most of those machines cost over $3000. A lot were maxed-out Xserves, which are [were] much more expensive.

Indeed -- Apple's pro machines were really expensive pre-1998 -- I remember in particular that the Quadra 950 [maxed out with 256mb memory! a rendering monster in like 1992] retailed at around ~$4500ish

They're currently running a pilot with a couple models on extending repair services to vintage models in all areas, not just the handful of places where it's required by law.

Assuming that is continued/expanded in the future, that'll give you ~7 years or so of official hardware support after the model goes out of production instead of 5.

I do not in any way support locking down hardware, but most hardware will be pretty shot and not worth putting money into at 8 years or more down the line.

My nearly 15 year old PPC Macs take offense! Seriously, for light tasks around the house, they are still useful (granted, not at all secure or current but that's not an issue in all use cases.) Yeah, I get that I'm an edge case...

What dystopic future world do you live in where everything is integrated on every device? Maybe for phones, but that kind of lock-in isn't THAT common. It even makes economic sense for OEMs to use standard parts, so it's not like upgradeable RAM is some wild fantasy. And making a replacement a hassle is waaaay different from making it impossible. This is a HUGE problem and probably the most anti-consumer move I've ever seen.

Let's ignore that it actively discourages users (think students and kids) from tinkering with computer parts and learning, which was how I got into technology. It affects all non-Apple Authorized repair shops, which are currently able to take salvaged working parts from broken machines to provide fixes at a fraction of the cost.

Right now, Authorized repair shops are forced to buy parts directly from Apple at basically double the cost, so many do not have a large stock of newer or more rare parts on hand. Apple has moved towards selling entire assemblies and not individual parts - logic boards include CPUs, coolers, RAM, etc. So, if you have a busted USB port, you're getting all of that replaced and paying for it. Does your MacBook Pro have a busted keyboard key? Let's hope the heat didn't warp any of those warranty void stickers, because you're getting a new entire top half of the chassis, trackpad, and battery.

Even though those stickers are not legally binding, I'm about 98% sure they CAN be enforced through the service provider's contract with Apple. AASP are "permitted to deny service for any product that has been opened or modified by a customer, regardless of warranty, both for safety reasons and to avoid responsibility if the machine cannot be fixed.” Regardless of warranty. To get fair prices, AASPs return broken parts to Apple for recycling, so any aftermarket fixes mean the AASP gets the crazy price if they look the other way. It's in Apple's best interest to void an active warranty, and they have plenty of nit picky, obnoxious tests that are fully sanctioned by the company.

It isn't that you can't get a warrantied device repaired by a certified technician - it's that you can a device, regardless of warranty, repaired AT ALL. The AASP are the only ones that could use these special tools. They are punishing you even if you repair it successfully.

Imagine if you were completely unable to start your car because you took it to a non-certified auto shop for a timing belt. The new belt is fine, but it wasn't 'activated' by the manufacturer, and now no certified shop will touch the car because it's blacklisted. They won't even put a new certified belt on and activate it because to get the belt at a reasonable price, they have to send the entire engine back to the manufacturer with a ruined certified belt, and even then there would be a record of Shop X assisting with Y machines that failed the Certified Tool Test. Let's take a closer look at Shop X's replacement part submissions... Looks like this user replaced their wiper fluid with a slightly more blue wiper fluid. Warranty voided.

Locking out third party repairs means you do not own your computer - Apple is allowing you to use it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/18/linus-tech-tips-imac-pr...

Check out the XPS 15 9570 (2018 version), it has wi-fi card, SSD and RAM all slotted and standard form-factor. And every other part is cheap and available to be bought and replaced if not by you, then by anyone who has the skill. Apple and other manufacturers make it hard to believe that a slick light modern laptop can't be easy to repair, but it in fact can be, if you engineer it to be serviced on-site.

Then why hasn't a manufacturer done it?

I still haven't found a laptop that has a trackpad anywhere was good as a Macbook. Still waiting.

I'm still waiting for this mythical huge market of people who want to tinker and repair everything themselves. It doesn't exist. It's a vocal minority on here, and nothing more.

My point is that it has been done, repeatedly, by many manufacturers over many years. You can find a YouTube channel called Dave2D, the guy reviews Windows and Mac laptops and always takes the cover off and shows upgrade options, most 15" laptops have RAM, SSD and Wi-Fi upgradeable. Until about a year ago, in 13" systems, the SSD AND Wi-Fi were also upgradeable but lately they've been soldering the Wi-Card onboard (it still is a standard form-factor and you could replace the Wi-Fi with another one using a hot air rework station).

The trackpad is unrelated to repairability. In my opinion, XPS 15 has a very good trackpad which closely matches MacBook's. My thinking about why MacBook's trackpads are better is that there are two reasons - one is that Apple holds some kind of patent on some kind of tech or way of making trackpads (they bought a manufacturer long ago), plus there's a problem with slow adoption of the new scrolling APIs by Windows app developers. All of the UWP apps are fine by default, but the older way of writing UI in Win32 apps leads to them not being able to retrofit the smooth scrolling into the apps. Even Windows Explorer's scrolling is quite bad in this regard compared to Finder.

This really is a personal question of whether it's fine for you to sacrifice some things for others. I know, I prefer to be able to replace the keyboard on the laptop myself with a $20 part instead of $150 part (and lots of hassle where you can permanently damage the Mac in the process), but some people would actually not care about that. What I adressed in the parent comment were the facts that there are in fact quite a number of laptops that are repairable and upgradeable right now on the market, and they've got little in terms of compromises built in.

I'd love to be able to replace the storage in this Mid 2014 Macbook Pro, I'm pretty sure it's on its way out (about every 2 weeks the filesystem and finder completely hang). I can buy an SSD for a couple of hundred £, and I have replaced the disks in a fair number of older macs (mostly spinning rust -> SSD) for family members. The cost of getting it replaced by Apple would be a lot higher, and if it turns out that wasn't the issue then I don't have a spare SSD to use as external storage either.

> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust the owner of the device making much sense.”

It’s not the owner of the device that Apple doesn’t trust. I wonder if there has been any major instances of people other than the owner of an Apple device trying to get into it? Maybe the CEO of iFixit can think of one?

I love OS X, but nowadays I can't stand Apple's hardware.

Living outside of the US, using Mac products purchased in the US means you have to go to third-party repair shops. Last week I took my 1-year old, $2,500 MBP to an Apple store in Istanbul, only to find out that Applecare doesn't work here, and a replacement screen would cost me $650 (thanks to super high import taxes). Tomorrow I'm taking it to a 3rd-party repair shop where the repair, with what is likely a counterfeit or stolen screen, will cost $400. I'm considering just buying a used Dell instead, but I hate Linux on the desktop.

FWIW you might find that Windows 10 Pro + WSL can get you a lot of what you want in terms of desktop capabilities.

MS have been improving the WSL/Windows Interop quite a bit. I find that for things like scripting, text file manipulation and connecting to Linux servers, WSL works fine.

But I'm not prepared to have Candy Crush adverts in my Start Menu, which counts Windows out.

Additionally, I know I can deactivate them by jumping through a couple of hoops, but that's not the point.

It does take some setup and tweeks; but you can create a perfectly serviceable W10 laptop without the crappy start menu and advertising. I primarily use ClassicShell (www.classicshell.net), although others exist, coupled with Spybot's antibeacon (https://www.safer-networking.org/products/spybot-anti-beacon...)

> It does take some setup and tweeks; but you can create a perfectly serviceable W10 laptop without the crappy start menu and advertising.

What a ridiculous situation. Microsoft used to have the fig leaf that it was the OEMs stuffing crapware into new computers but at some point they decided to cut out the middleman and do it themselves.

I'm dreading the day that I have to move off of Windows 7. So far it's still creaking along, but eventually something will force me to upgrade. All I want is to give Microsoft a sum of money (even a big amount of money is fine) and get an operating system that's supported for at least 1 year. If I could get access to Windows Enterprise without jumping through hoops (like self-incorporating) that might be an acceptable compromise.

Out of curiousity, why do you feel that's not the point? Customizing an operating system after installation is a common part of the process for any system

Having to remove unwanted software seems like an odd reason to rule out an entire environment.

Having to fight against a vendor who feels entitled to advertise to you via your general purpose tools is the point, or rather, not going down that path.

Because it shows their willingness to throw the consumer under a bus for an extra dollar. Luckily I have an option (Apple, even though they pulled that bullshit U2 music album move). Unfortunately, I don’t see any other option in the market.

I disagree. I want an environment that works with me, not against me. There's no guarantee that Microsoft won't make ads harder to remove in future versions, and it's a worrying trend that they're there at all. I don't want to invest in a system that I don't feel is aligned with my personal values.

The name Windows 10 Professional suggest that it's suitable for Professional use. I was happy using Windows 2000, Windows XP Pro and Windows 7. But ads are a step too far, and something I don't expect to see in software I've paid for.

I'm happy enough with Linux on my workstation and macOS on my MBP. I can get up and running quickly without doing any pointless tweaks.

Seems like a strange hill to die on, so to speak. I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the ads in the start menu for more than a few seconds.

That's a few seconds too much.

If it were a free OS where you could upgrade to get rid of the ads, I wouldn't mind it.

But it's not. It's an operating system whose basic price is over $100 and you cannot get rid of them permanently in any way without using third-party software. That piece of shit will never become my choice of the operating system.

The very least they could do is to offer ad-free experience in the Pro version. At this moment, I see no benefit of buying Pro at all.

Hackintosh is surprisingly easy these days if you find the right hardware.

Running a "virtual Mac" in a VM is even easier.

This is an excellent step for protecting MacBook Pro users against hardware invasions (such as US and China border authorities). If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious actors. By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity.

Yes, in a theoretical world, you could set up your own crypto authority and sign your own device repairs, assuming Apple were to build support for this. But if you brick your CA you’d brick your laptop if it ever needed repairs someday, which would leave you thousands of dollars poorer and in need of a laptop.

I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom.

I highly doubt that’s Apple’s reason considering they didn’t give a comment when asked for one

Apple rarely comments on anything. You can't make assertions based on that.

Prohibiting 3rd party repairs doesn't make you any safer than you are now. If you were concerned about hardware attacks you could continue to bring your computer to the apple store, and never have to worry. All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines.

And this is assuming you trust apple to inspect their parts closely. Their computers are still made in china. Why couldn't the chinese governnent coerce their suppliers to commit sabotage?

Also, when was the last time your Mom was the target of a hardware attack? Is she a foreign diplomat or intelligence officer?

> All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines.

I don't see how this removes any choices. It's still possible to buy other non-Apple hardware that doesn't have those restrictions.

Consider this: the majority of the consumer demographic is largely ignorant to these issues. As such, Apple's largest customer demographic is in no place to make informed decisions. By restricting hardware and serviceability, Apple directly fosters mass consumerism by selling non-repairable, disposable gadgets. This undoubtedly contributes to climate change and non-renewable resource drain. Even if every Apple customer decided to make a change with their next purchase, you would still have a huge number of devices heading to the landfill, all simply because of Apple deciding to impose hardware restrictions for profit.

And note that, as mentioned in the article, Apple is actively lobbying against Right-to-repair, which will help other corporations get away with similar practices. So for how long is it "still possible" to have any choice whatsoever? Can you buy, for example, a mobile device with an open baseband? No - already the consumer can't vote with their wallet nor have choice in many, if not most, matters of consumer technology.

I hope you see the irony in asking me whether my mom is a spy. Your question is rhetorical and unhelpful to this conversation. If she isn’t, the answer is no. If she is, the answer is still no. Please don’t use conversational warfare tactics here.

Wouldn't state actors be able to steal the software used by Apple to re-enable the software? With a network of thousands of "Apple Authorized Service Providers" there's gotta be leaks (that is, if state actors didn't have access to Apple's own internal systems).

You're committing the most common sin of thinking-about-security: considering possibilities without adding the weight of probabilities.

If I'm going to be targeted by state actors then I wouldn't fix my computers anyway, I'd have professionals worry with that. For example, if I was an important worker for another state, the hope is that the state that employed me would take care of it. Re probabilities, the probability that a random hacker who wants to tinker will be targeted by a state actor is nilch.

Agreed, there is zero chance that Apple is doing any deep background checks on these Authorized Service Providers and all their employees.

In fact chances are, most third-party repair shops are going to end up finding such an employee who's prepared to authorize a bunch of additional repairs for a little extra cash on the side.

The number of users who simply want/need cheaper repairs and upgrades dwarfs those who are at risk of getting their hardware bugged by state-sponsored actors. And considering these laptops are made in China in the first place, any assurances of security are already moot.

If security was the primary concern, Apple would sell this as a separate model variant (manufactured in the USA) and charge a lot more for it.

I also used to believe that privacy was only for spys but I have very quickly changed my position.

Gays, minorities, journalists, dissidents, whistleblowers etc are all being targeted and jailed in many countries in the world. And in China it's entire swathes of the general public. And so much of this is directly attributable to lax privacy and security.

And I don't know believe that there is a huge market for cheaper repairs of Macs. Most people are still just going to local service providers who are authorised by Apple anyway. Otherwise getting hold of parts can be difficult.

Why not sell to both markets?

The repair market for Apple products isn't huge precisely because Apple has done everything it can to kill it.

The repair market for apple laptops is probably small anyways because apple is a small fish in that market. Why bother?

Because your three thousand dollar laptop has shat the bed, and you couldn't shell out for Apple Care or they failed to help in proper corporate fashion.

If they weren't actively shitting on repair companies, I'd say there'd be more of a market.

Apple has never been a major player regardless of this. They never will be. That goes back for decades and they barely have moved the needle. They are the artisanal version of computers.

In Asia you can get an iMac sad upgrade done for $10. You just supply the ssd. If you buy the disk from the shop the margin is tiny.

You can get an iPhone screen repaired for peanuts. Apple quoted $190 to do it. Shop did it for $95.

Speakers replaced on a MacBook Pro? $45.

Apple is fine with owner repairability for the parts you listed.

The issue is with allowing replacement of parts where you could do something that compromises security. Replacing someone's display assembly with one that disables the on light. Or swapping keyboard with one that has a key logger.

We all absolutely believe this is their logic. Truly, utterly.

It has nothing to do with ensuring product turnover whatsoever.

On the flip side, none of those parts (the SSD, the iPhone screen, or the MacBook speaker) are the same parts as Apple uses.

Third party iPhone screen replacement is generally not worth it due to shoddy warranty by the shop and noticeably worse screen quality. Where it is worth it is when you are already out of warranty and trying to extend the life of your phone.

The SSD is probably closest, although Apple does have custom part #s with custom firmware.

> none of those parts (the SSD, the iPhone screen, or the MacBook speaker) are the same parts as Apple uses.

With the exception of the SSD. The screen and speakers etc are the same as Apple uses.

Unless the alternative is discarding the hardware completely.

See, it's all about pricing, not quality of the parts. Last iPhone I sent for repairs at work came back with an invoice of 340€ for a screen replacement. At work that's something we _have_ to do, we can't send the phones anywhere we want. But if it was a personal phone, if I'm out of warranty and I'm going to be billed 1/3 of the cost of the phone for a new screen, or 100€ for a refubrished part somewhere else, it would be an easy decission.

Now, if that aftermarket repair was out of the question, you start wondering if it's worth to spend 1100€ for the more basic version of the phone, or you just spend 200€ on a Xiaomi and if it breaks you still can buy 4 phones more if they break. Or maybe you buy an iPhone still, but then when it breaks you just throw it away and buy an Android phone. Maybe the first time it won't happen, but after you have spent 1500€ on a phone and something else breaks(battery? lightning connector maybe?) it comes to a point where you stop throwing money into the hole.

On the laptop side, I get what Apple is doing. It has their new flashy T2 chip with integrated Touch ID and they're trying to do the same thing they did with the iPhones and nobody is going to stop them (well, maybe in EU they force them to allow the sale of Apple Diagnostic software to 3rd parties or fine them)

They're trying to convert their computers into big iPhones and treating everyone like a child that has to be taken by the hand and told him what to do all the time. And that is my problem with Apple. I'm not worried of somebody putting a backdoor in my laptop (and if they wanted to backdoor my laptop a year ago they only had to type 'root' [enter] [enter], no need to open the case), I'm not that interesting to anybody or any agency, but I don't like to be treated like I have no rights on the things I buy, and I don't need permission from anybody to do whatever I want with whatever I paid with my money.

Yeah but that has nothing to do with Apple specifically. If you're doing stuff that's potentially going to get you jailed, best not do it online.

Apple is shipping devices which are safe from state actors intervening when the devices are manufactured. This affects who can make repairs. They are not restricting the repairs to prevent state actors from intervening when devices are being repaired.

My opinion about Apple has changed recently. They're now actively promoting privacy and I am OK with trading repairability with privacy.

Also, Louis Rossmann on Youtube one of the most vile, deeply corrosive personalities out there and his audience enjoys the bashing of Apple left and right. He has essentially marketed himself as Anti-Apple and his message is always "Apple is Evil".

Even if anyone had mentioned Rossman, your second paragraph is one of the most textbook ad hominem arguments it's possible to make.

Yeah, what a baseless, unprovoked attack that was.

How on earth is this being spun into "Apple protecting your privacy!"?

This is the RDF in action.

It's amazing how so many of these comments read like Apple PR.

"I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom."

Holy goodness. In the 2000s it was Google will save the world "Do no evil". Now it's Apple "Keeps us safe".

Why do you think malicious actors won't get their hands on these programs?

Watching Rossmann vids is why I have given up on Apple.

He points out bad engineering/manufacturing in $2000+ laptops and I agree with his insights regarding how Apple makes it seem like the customer/user is wrong to cover their bad engineering.

Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are not holding the phone correctly

> Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are not holding the phone correctly

But it turned out Apple was right about that; the iPhone 4 sold for years after the bumper program ended and with high consumer satisfaction.

Blame the consumer and sell a fix. Think Different.

https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on-iphone-4-re...

And if this were an optional service that Apple provided for security-conscious customers, then I don't think anybody would have a problem with it.

"By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity."

This is a foolish statement.

Any bad actors with power can just add themselves to that subset of humanity - this is the same reason we dont add software special backdoors that only special sets of humanity can unlock.

> Any bad actors with power can just add themselves to that subset of humanity - this is the same reason we dont add software special backdoors that only special sets of humanity can unlock.

This analogy doesn't make sense.

The alternative to adding backdoors is to not add backdoors (which is safer). The alternative to restricting hardware repairs to a subset of humanity is not restricting them at all (which is more dangerous).

Well, the FBI famously DIDN'T manage to get themselves onto your "bad actors with power" list.

Sometimes I think people vastly overestimate the skills and powers of the security services...

And the analogy to backdoors doesn't work, because for the user who isn't a crypto-analyst (and, tbh, even for those) this system is almost tautologically safer than not having it.

It bears mentioning that security of personal computers has vastly improved over the last decade or so, both Windows and Mac. It's ridiculous to disparage their efforts as useless.

What about protecting our computers from Apple? I’m far more concerned about them dictating our future than China.

> If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious actors.

The correct way to handle this, however, is to offer to sign the customer's key for a given unit or order, with a mechanism for succession (i.e. simultaneously sign a successor key, and expire the current one).

This security improvement will make me safer

If society as a whole constantly falls for the "security" argument then it won't be long before every aspect of your life is controlled by some central entity.

I feel obligated to bring up that timeless quote again: "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

That argument is slightly lazy, in that it applies to far too many situations where it's obviously wrong... Looking both ways before crossing the street does not make my life controlled by some central entity, etc..

You do not give up any right when you look both ways before crossing the street. Which other situations you can suggest?

https://xkcd.com/538/

Why do you assume such malicious actors can't get a copy of the software, or leverage someone who has access?

This also enables governments like China to prevent its citizens from modifying apple hardware. In essence it provides a tool for a government to retain control.

You might trust Apple but do you trust your government to not pressure Apple? Apple cares about making money, not its users.

You could allow EITHER party to authenticate a repair. You could even let Apple issue you a new key.

Hardware attacks are virtually a non issue now. Pretending this is about security is just nonsense.

This is a step backward on ownership but the average Joe isn't going to care about this. If at most might protest at their large repair bill they get after dropping their Starbuck's Frappucino over their keyboard. However they will quickly go back to their normal way of life; which is accepting onerous Terms and Conditions from corporations.

Average joes aren't buying macbooks anymore, iphones and ipads all the way

So, this article says there is no security model that doesn't trust the owner of the device, and there's something to that.

But "evil maid" attacks are a pretty routine occurance in China, and having hardware that is resistant to that would be very interesting. I don't know enough about hardware to really know if they can lock everything down far enough that it's impossible to physically mess with it. It would be interesting if you could verify whether it has been messed with using an iPhone that has been at your side.

But I'm not an Apple user anyway, so this doesn't really effect me anyway :)

As someone who have four macbooks here at home, and has been on the mac ecosystem for decades, I'm just done with them. The last macbook pro I bought is literal garbage. The keyboard has three broken buttons and the thing is less than a year old. Now they are telling me that I can't fix my machines on my own? Thanks but no thanks.

My sentiments exactly. Windoze has largely caught up in terms of usability and lack of annoyance. The difference is the attitude. MSFT has become what Apple once was--responsive and considerate of users that have different needs and tastes. My company kind of forced me off OSX but I don't miss it. Still have 3 macbooks and 2 mini's at home. But I've also started using old W-class thinkpads. I feel much more in control of the thinkpads. Plus they are cheap as dirt and don't fight me every time I want to change something.

My first macbook pro was in 2007. I had it in a demo area and I shattered the screen.

I found a place selling the display unit, which I replaced, for a fraction of the cost of having apple repair it.

I imagine this is to cut down on the number of Apple computers repaired with bootleg parts, then either resold to Apple, or brought in for warranty repairs, but stopping legit DIYer from repairing their hardware is a pretty terrible side effect.

EDIT TO ADD: More likely, the security chip verifies the hardware wasn't tampered with, so it needs special software to update its checksum.

How this kind of business tactic is not illegal? I think this is a clearly violation of user's right to repair.

Freedom.

I mean. I'm not saying you're wrong here. What's freer than an anarchic society after all? Of course, we can justify rules on the grounds of freedom. A king certainly is free, his subjects are not.

So what's freer? A company that controls all aspects of their customers use of their products? Or a company that is restricted from such practices?

I can't tell if your post is sarcastic, glib, factual... So I think you were too terse here. Your meaning is not obvious.

The iMac Pro is similarly locked down. All while Apple fights against Right To Repair legislation.

It's absolutely baffling how so many seemingly educated, knowledgeable people such as those found in tech can support these anti-user practices via their support of Apple's products.

It goes further than just Apple's hardware products: some people prefer to build "Hackintosh" systems (OSX running on non-Apple hardware) and a common problem is dealing with wifi-adapter whitelists. Why would you ever want to consider using an OS that imposes such arbitrary restrictions on you?

Because, statistically speaking, 0% of the population wants to tinker with their computer. Neither you nor anybody else on this website is normal.

Yes, and this applies outside of computers, to cars, etc.

But the PC/PC gaming enthusiast market is probably some appreciable percentage of the population. And people building Hackintoshes are certainly tinkering with their computer and hardware in the process - yet they tolerate, or even accept, Apple's vendor lock-in enough to use their OS.

The problem is that it's not 0% its more like 2-3% and most want repairs at a reasonable rate that is enabled by a robust market and available parts without weird restrictions like those put upon official sanctioned shops.

Tell that to my 70 year old grandmother who has replaced both the motherboard and hard drive in her Lenovo desktop. If you design a somewhat reasonably easy to repair computer people are more than happy to fix it themselves. It's only because of the difficulty of repairing apple products that people shy away from the idea.

Or maybe your 70 year old grandmother is a several standard deviation outlier and that has something to do with you commenting on this website, which is frequented by several standard deviation outliers.

The WiFi adapter whitelists are in the BIOS of the hardware, not OSX.

Because, other than these restrictions, macOS is _that good_. Or was.

I moved to Fedora on my desktop since then, but I do miss macOS often.

The WiFi adapter restrictions are either the result of hardware restrictions (the UEFI firmware not allowing a different device) or a lack of drivers (there's no macs with Intel PCI WiFi cards so Intel doesn't have any MacOS drivers).

Although there's plenty of reasons to critisise MacOS restrictions, the WiFi hardware issue is not one of Apple's faults.

Yeah my Thinkpad X220, a model generally loved by Apple critics, also has a WiFi card whitelist in the bios.

> It's absolutely baffling how so many seemingly educated, knowledgeable people such as those found in tech can support these anti-user practices via their support of Apple's products.

It's probably to do with the T2 chip which among other things handles full-disk encryption and TouchID. It seems extremely likely that this is for security reasons.

If I had the choice, I would choose security over the ability to tinker with my hardware any day.

This is pretty messed up. DRM for hardware. I just picked up a couple SGI workstations earlier this week, both built in 1996. If SGI had implemented some DRM like this, it would be quite the uphill battle to even make use of these old systems that often require replacement parts to get running. There's no excuse to tolerate these harmful practices.

I have a collection of some 20+ classic Macs, all of which I have performed some degree of hardware replacements/repair on. No way I'd have access to some Apple "authorized repair technician" services as an enthusiast collector who just likes old computers.

Then there's the family members and friends whose computers I fix as a favor -- guess they can shell out $hundreds, instead of buying a cheap replacement part and having it installed for free, right? Assuming Apple even still produces the respective component! :\

You know they also sell machines without the secure enclave bonded to the substrate. If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other machines -- or someone else's.

I can find plenty of reasons to dump on Apple, but I do believe their commitment to customer privacy is pretty strong (even before considering that they are a large corporation).

And I say that even though I don't believe, say, their commitment to open standards (it's historically been enthusiastic in areas where they have been behind and then, if they claw themselves out of that particular hole, the commitment is mysteriously sloughed off). The privacy issue, in particular in the Cook era, has been more consistent (if imperfect) even when I would not think it needed to be for business reasons.

Again, I'm not trying to paint apple with some broad "good guy" brush, just talking about this one issue.

If they make more money from locking it down why would they not do it with all their devices?

If they show you can earn 10% more revenue in an area with slim margins why wont others follow in their footsteps.

The only real solution is to make this strategy illegal.

Ok so wipe the customers keys in the T2 chip and/or disable id instead of disabling the whole device. Remember when Apple would disable your phone if you swapped the home button with a (iirc) Error 51 message and how they had to walk that back after enough backlash?

I’m all for privacy, but there are ways to offering both privacy and repairability.

> If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other machines -- or someone else's.

But this information is only coming to light after the products have been put into the market. Apple don’t share this information before you purchase their stuff. What percentage of people who purchase their products know beforehand that the only people who will be a Lee to repair their laptop is Apple or who Apple deem fit?

Their whole "privacy" campaign recently is precisely to drum up business. Everyone is parroting how Apple is so focused on privacy when they forget that they work closely with the FBI. Remember the whole thing about iMessage keeping encryption keys stored on apple servers? iPhones have a mics, a camera, and access to all your personal data. Calling apple strong on privacy is like calling lions strong on vegetarianism.

My only knowledge of Apple and the FBI is Apple refusing to unlock iPhones at the FBi’s request - care to enlighten me further?

I’m also not sure what the problem with Apple keeping iMessage encryption keys on their servers is. The article I read about it said that Signal also uses centralized encryption key servers and nobody ever complains about Signal.

https://www.wired.com/2015/09/apple-fighting-privacy-imessag...

I've complained about signal in the past as well. Everyone uses signal and telegram like they are some kind of special secret place which is an illusion. They are more likely honey pots.

You know they also sell machines without the secure enclave bonded to the substrate.

Not for much longer I think.

> I do believe their commitment to customer privacy is pretty strong

It might be now (or not, we can't know). But what's your guarantee for the future?

Well of course nobody can but as I commented in my note: historically they have been far less cynical about privacy than they have about commitment to open standards.

I never understood Apple with this. They fight hard to make long lasting devices (iOS 12 can be installed all the way back on the 5s IIRC), but then fight back against repairability

I presume there is good margin in official repairs. Just like there is speccing extra memory on a machine you buy, that can be bought for a quarter of the price from Crucial or Amazon for equally high speed and quality.

They have clearly set their direction of travel, so I hold out no hope of ever owning another Cheese Grater with similar attention to detail of how upgrades are enabled.

Repairability is a trade off. Have you looked under the hood of a German car lately?

Or any car I would think. A lot of cars have a cover for the motor telling you not to screw around with your car.

All cars pretty much, mainly thanks to emissions regs

Part of the reason I only buy older cars, so I can work on them myself. I enjoy it as a hobby, and it saves me a lot of money.

Time is money. I charge more per hour than my authorized bmw dealer charges me.

That's always such a depressing line of thought.

Maybe that sounded over the top. I don’t come from a wealthy background. I worked 19 years to be here. Sorry if the previous statement was a bit blunt to some.

Not the main issue with a hobby. It's as much because it's a satisfying Saturday afternoon as saving $$ on hourly rates.

In 30 years of vehicle ownership, all main and authorised dealers do a shoddy job. Frequently fraudulent by charging for parts they did not fit. I'll prefer the independent who's probably struggling to survive.

Agreed. I've found the dealership mechanics to be lobotomized flow-chart followers. If X isn't working, replace part A, if that fails, replace part B, if that fails, replace part C.

Why not just run the necessary tests to determine which part is broken?

Source: exhaust valve spring was broken, and dealership somehow wanted to sell me spark plugs and ignition coils, despite my own notes stating that I've swapped them around but the problem didn't move around.

Congrats on being in the 1% by definition most people aren't here.

It's a tradeoff between owner repairability and security.

And Apple is betting that the second is more important. This isn't a black/white issue. It's which shade of grey you prefer.

It is not a trade-off.

Apple is instead purposely trying to make it more difficult to repair their devices.

This is evidenced because they ate lobbying against right to repair laws.

What possible, non bad faith reason could apple have for opposing people's right to repair their own property?

They are lobbying against the right to repair laws because it will limit what they are able to do from a security standpoint. And, since basically nobody repairs their own machines anyway, it would be a damned shame if 100% of their users lost out on having the best security features possible because 0% of their users want to be able to repair their laptop.

My experience is that about 75% of people owning an apple product would like to have serviced/repaired outside apple due to very long delay and overcharged prices.

It doesn't limit anything.

All right to repair means is that everyone has a legal right to repair something, and apple can't sue you for getting around their restrictions using copywrite or whatever.

I don't think apple should be allowed to sue people for fixing things.

It's 100% possible to make it harder to tamper without the user certifying its OK without making it require apples permission.

This has very little if anything to do with security, it's about control and profit.

Apple makes good profit with apple store repairs and wants to prevent repairs from happening outside their grasp to make more profit.

Security is designed against a threat model, the vast majority of user do not have to defend against "malevolent third party repair shop planting hacked hardware during repairs". The main culprit for this kind of attack is US governement agencies engaging in interdiction (intercepting hardware during shipping to alter it) not third party repair shops (and IIRC apple works with those US agencies).

The iphone 5s is only 5 years ago.

Compare that to the Android world, my last Android phone got one update after 6 months and that was it.

Push the comparison further, maybe you can apply an aftermarket firmware with less junk, more fixes and latest updates to your device (if you chose it wisely) you cannot do so with an apple device.

Like most people I have zero interest in installing an alternative operating system on my phone.

So, with more of this happening, I have a bigger question for HN.

Why does used Apple hardware command a premium, even years later? Is this really come down to status?

I don't think I need to discuss the anti-user features that Apple does. This crowd is more than aware.

Have you looked at the hardware cost to price on new iMac Pro? About a $313 markup. And factoring the T2 chip (which is worth a whole lot) and slick chassis plus some support, a great deal. https://www.cultofmac.com/485914/imac-pro-pricetag/

That PC being compared to is way more capable than the $5000 iMac Pro. 1080 Ti vs Vega64, that $650 motherboard has better expansion options etc.

Because it’s pretty great hardware. And if you price out trying to duplicate it, without arbitrarily discounting for features you don’t want, it’s not even much of a premium.

> Because it’s pretty great hardware.

It's not great, it's pretty, sure, but not great. The Last MBP spec were pretty underwhelming, the keyboard was of dubious quality and for the price it's easy to find better specs, more robust and with no extra fee when it comes to warranty. When you buy a Mac you're buying a brand, not a superior product, the "premium" is the logo on rear... Unfortunately I use both Logic and Final Cut on a daily basis so I have no choice.

I'm curious for answers to this after one of the worst experiences with buying a macbook myself back in 2015. It isn't "great hardware", it's just okay but more expensive. If you people really mean "pretty case" and "nice keyboard" then say that because Mac specs are often more expensive for the same specs on most laptops.

It’s great software too. People don’t want to save $500 and spend 100 hours dealing with blue screens, uninstalling malware, updating OSs, learning half of a new interface (what is wrong with the Windows control panel team)?

I cannot remember apple offering great hardware in the not so distant past, what hardware are you referring to ?

My experience is that apple hardware had limitation that other hardware did not, and for a much higher price tag.

Apple slow-boiled its "power users" and the dev community.

If everything that has happened since SJ passed away had happened within only one or two years, fewer people would defend them.

At this point, if you're younger than 20 years old, you just figure Apple built its good reputation despite all the problems.

So these days when Apple does something unpleasant, you get all the arguments that start off "well, Apple has always [had some recent flaw]" or "well, Apple has never [had some old positive attribute]"

Apple's reputation has indeed still suffered lately, but many older users are silently giving up, and many newer users don't know any better. I think financially, they're fairly free to do what they want now without massive consumer backlash.

It really does come down to status. Apple isn't really a computer company anymore, it sells "Luxury Goods" and gets the same sort of value boost you see in diamonds, Rolexes, and Armani suits.

This isn't to say the components are trash, but if you removed the cachet of the brand, and the lock in afforded by OSX and iOS, you wouldn't see nearly the current stupidity.

As much as I think this is true, many people around me have macs, especially non-gamers and non-tech savvy people, so it's not that much of a niche.

It's not that it's a niche, it's that Apple's products are designed to be coveted.

I'm saying uninformed people don't first buy Apple based on specs, they buy Apple because of brand recognition and 'fanciness'

I agree with you by that definition of luxury, yes.

How is it just status when Apple is the only vendor providing a device that just works with the least time spent fixing it or updating it or removing all the malware that came pre installed on it?

My grandparents and uncles and aunts aren’t looking for status. They want to open their device, press FaceTime and see their grand kids. They don’t want to spend time fighting out which login to use on which service Google is experimenting with (duo/allo/hangout?). Hell I don’t even know.

It’s not status when you they buy windows laptops for 10 years and they have a 50/50 shot of the sleep function working when they close the lid, but they see people with MacBooks just closing the lid and moving on. And never getting a blue screen. And never waiting for Windows updates to finish.

There is a reason Apple has its reputation, and obviously since no one else an offer the seamless experience, they’re going to charge extra for it. But the amount of hours of life it has saved me is worth every penny. That’s how bad the Windows experience was for me and pretty much everyone I know.

I deal with this grandparents videocall situation, none have an apple product but android tablets and linux computers and it's working as intended.

I also deal with how every macbook plugging the ethernet cable on my home network just crashes with the multilingual error message explaining that nothing can be done except turning off the macbook, no other device does this, apple device privilege I guess.

Do I have to mention the number of ipad and iphone and macbook that are brought to me because something wrong during update happened and now the devices won't boot ?

There are other vendor who do not pre install malware, and I would like to see fact supporting your claim that apple is the only one that...

To me apple is just another vendor with their own shortcomings and issues but also a more successful marketing which managed to give their devices a social status marker.

My elders don’t even read English, I just don’t see how Google and Windows offerings are as usable as Apples. And in fact experience shows they weren’t, I tried and all the login and quality issues made me go out and set everyone up with FaceTime. Although their recent decision to hide the switch camera button was asinine, they mostly kept it clean and consistent and easy to use.

Same with iOS. If I give the same elders a Windows or Linux or Android device, who knows what kind of malware they will click on when visiting their news websites or clicking WhatsApp links. But with iOS, I never have to worry about malware. All they have to do is go back to the home screen and kill the website or process.

That’s not marketing, that’s creating software and hardware that meets a need. A need for privacy and security and usability with minimal hassle.

My elders do not understand english either and requires fully localized software.

I do not know about google or windows or apple offerings, I stay away from both. Does facetime allows to videocall outside of apple walled garden or is it an apple only feature ? As approximatively 1 person own an iphone among people they stay in touch with, this would be an issue.

I gave my elders linux computers more than 10 years ago, they are 92 and 93 years now, and not a malware issue once.

Claiming that apple popularity is based on merit alone and not on marketing is quite the extraordinary claim, so allow me to ask for some fact supporting this claim.

I'm not claiming it's based on marketing alone, but I am claiming there is a significant difference in the usability of their products, and that contributes heavily to their success.

I'm certainly not going to be able to produce any studies, therefore I'm responding with actual occurrences which led to me Apple as my final solution. What happens when the linux computers hard drive fails? With an iPad, you tell your grandparents to go buy a new one and put the iCloud log in, and in an hour it's back to the way it was. I don't want to deal with backup and restore, neither do most people I know.

What happens when they bust their phone? Go to the mobile phone store and get hassled by a minimum wage kid trying to trick the elders into more commissionable services? Have them call Samsung or Google 800#, wait on hold, have to do shipping and receiving? Or tell them to go to the Apple store and get it swapped out?

These are all real life experiences that are much improved with Apple's devices. If you can afford it, and are not interested in tinkering, then I can't recommend anything else.

I am literally waiting for the Pixelbook 2 to replace my MacBook Pro (Touchbar) as it's been rotting away with failing speakers and keyboard getting progressively worse over time. This is my 3rd with a decade long history of using the devices. However, repairs are just too inaccessible. I don't have the luxury to wait a month for a third party authorized repair shop to do its magic so I can continue working. My best experience was with the 2011 model which I upgraded myself. Everything after was just a worse experience.

Lol was already resigned to this being my last mbp (customer for at least 15 years)... This is pure icing .. .

Confirmation bias is very high when you are already at least subconsciously deicided on something.

I just hope my current rMBP 2015 doesn't die on me... I don't want the OLED bar, crappy keyboard or donglelife.

I don't want to run Windows either... Linux is also questionable.

Maybe I'll just get a hackintosh or something.

Meanwhile fixing anything in this x220 has been as a simple as going on amazon. Keyboard? amazon. Battery? Amazon. Display? Amazon. Plastic enclosure? Amazon.

I've nearly replaced every damn part but the motherboard in it at this point, and its still cheaper to own than a new macbook.

My T460 sadly seems to have gone the apple direction. I don't want to buy a new $1K laptop every few years just because a small part broke or it needs a battery replacement, that's a ridiculous waste.

I'm speculating this works similar to iOS developer signing, where each device has a unique HW-fused ID, and only Apple can issue a cryptographically-signed provisioning profile with that ID to allow you to load software onto that device.

In this case, each HW subsystem probably has its own unique ID which is hashed together; replacing one invalidates the hash and requires Apple to re-sign the system's "provisioning profile" to pass power-on tests.

Unique hardware Id is incredibly useful to identify and track devices and people around.

Yes, so if you get your Mac or iPhone stolen it’s useless to the thief. This already happens with iCloud Activation Lock, but people just disassemble the motherboard and sell parts like the screen instead.

How exactly is that helping getting the device back ? or the data ?

How is that supposed to work anyways ? I only know a few stories of stolen iphones and macbooks and thieves had no issue using the devices or selling them.

If you don't like the particularities of how with how a business does business, don't buy their products. If enough people agree with you, the company will either go out of business, or will change its business practices.

The what amounts to hand wringing over Apple, mostly gets people flustered, without actually changing anything, but perhaps the direction of a few electrons somewhere.

So publicly criticizing the business practice you don't like, as a gambit to get other people to agree with you, is just off the table?

I do change something. I've got Thinkpad T25 with linux on board as my next computer instead of mac. I've got off iCloud Drive - replaced it with SyncThing + Dropbox combination (Dropbox to deliver stuff to iPhone). I've got off from Apple Music - back to owning my music (I endlessly tired of "this album is not available in your country"). The only thing left to figure out is photos - but I think I'll just slap together couple scripts in bash to transfer them from iPhone whenever I connect it to my laptop.

The ThinkPad Anniversary Edition 25 is an anomaly alas. Wish there were more like it. But, I have mine too :)

If you don't like the planet you're on, anyone can build a rocket ship and fly away if they really want to.

Using your logic, why should anyone change anything when they can just run away from their problems?

Apple isn't a planet. The only reason I have a relationship with them is because they offered a product that suited my needs.

A product I cannot repair does not suit my needs. I owe them no allegiance.

I, for one, refuse to buy their products and would really like it if they went out of business.

How do I get other people to agree with me without talking about why I despise them?

Instead of that, we can use any and all means necessary to cause damage to the company engaging in these practices.

There is nothing immoral about attempting to cause monetary damages to bad actors.

> Xiaomi overtakes Apple in China, Apple relegated to ‘Others’

https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/27/iphone-sales-decline-china/

This is how we wish it would work, but in the real world marketing, advertising, neuromarketing and piles of money are here to ensure it does not.

Actually there is this quote, forgot by whom, saying that 20th century saw a shift of power from politicians towards corporation, the largest advance in democracy, and corporation using their newly acquired power to protect themselves from the advance in democracy.

This is exactly what people have been voting for with their wallets though.

Is there a publicly maintained "repairability index" for laptops? iFixit used to have scores for smartphones, but laptops would now benefit from similar ranking.

Lenovo T480S still has some user-replaceable parts (RAM, SSD) and is only a little heavier than X1 Carbon.

iFixit has repariability scores for laptops too: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability

Thanks. No Lenovo laptops on their list yet.

> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust the owner of the device making much sense.”

Apologies for the cynism, but isn't this pretty much the mainstream security model since at least the advent of smartphones?

It is mainstream, but I'd say the author has it subtly wrong. The model distrusts the user, not the owner. It just happens that we are no longer the owners of the devices we use.

Depends on your definition of "owner".

Legally, you're still absolutely the owner of the device. You're perfectly allowed to smash your iPhone into tiny pieces and make an art piece out of them. You're also liable for damages caused by the iPhone.

It's just that the device is constructed such that your choices of use are restricted to "use exactly as permitted by Apple at any given moment" or "don't use it at all". This is enforced by technical means, by reliance on components you do not own (e.g. cloud services or the OS software) and by other laws (e.g. copyright). But it isn't enforced by ownership.

Maybe now is a good time to try and revive user-friendly linux desktops initiatives ? ( and i mean really user friendly... don’t mention anything that requires displaying « libxx » or « package y » to the user every now and then)

Can anyone offer advice? I am about to enter a bootcamp, rails based, with an attached dev company / set of instructors. There is one dev using windows/Linux, several students on Ubuntu and the rest on Macs. I need a new laptop to participate. I use windows (desktop) though have used unix in the dim distant past. I am looking at a 13" i5 8gb 256gb 2017 mbp (max budget) vs a dual boot Win / Linux machine (hp envy)with an i7 and 16mb ram, full hd 13" touch screen (also with soldered ram but removable ssd). If 99% of the people use Macs I assume this makes it an obvious choice?

Reading this I've grown even more appreciative of how easy ThinkPads are to repair/upgrade. Almost encouraged, given the many guides and YouTube videos available, and ultimately it's a cost saver to them.

And to all those that have moaned about the Linux desktop, I recently upgraded my ssd on my x260. End to end - circa 2.5 hours (a lot of that hands off). Fresh install of Fedora WS, with all packages and home directory restored, back to full productivity. No dicking around with drivers or playing "50 click-through install wizards".

I can't help but wonder, is that even possible on Windows or OS X?

Edit: typo

I installed Windows 10 on my old Dell Vostro 1720 (purchased around 2010) with a new SSD. There was minimal intervention by me. Within 30-40 mins I had a usable functioning system, connected to the internet etc.

I kicked off Windows update in the background and it chugged away with no prompting. I will admit this took a while but only because the ISO I have is Windows 10 RTM from 2015. It would likely have been quicker with a more up-to-date ISO with a later build.

The thing is it all depends on the hardware. If you're using more esoteric kit then you're likely to have a few more speedbumps regardless of OS.

It's good to know it's come leaps and bounds since the Win7 days. What about the software installation story? Is it still a case of download then click next next next. If it is then it's definitely a superior in Linux, where yum/dnf/apt will do both OS and apps for you.

I've limited experience wihb Win10, my wife has an XPS with Win10 pre-installed, and I've literally installed 2 things on it.

Lenovo thinkpads have a security chip also.

These so-called security chips give me mixed feelings.

They might improve the security of the average consumer, but they also create more barriers for anyone that wants to tinker with their setup.

Almost every computer has a security chip now.

At least if your computer has something related to one of these names: AMD, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Wave Systems Corp, Digital Management, Inc., Cisco, Lenovo, Infineon, Juniper Networks, Fujitsu, etc.

These are the member of the consortium Trusted Computing Group[1] who pushed for Trusted Computing[2] through hardware or software.

Do you remember the Palladium fiasco (now Next Generation Secure computing Base[3]) ? The TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Alliance) ? This was the beginning and it happened in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi...

They even called around local apple dealers and none of them would do it either because they were all constrained by Apple's back-office systems.

In the end I bought a genuine, brand-new top case (keyboard, trackpad, integrated battery) off eBay and did the work myself, it worked just fine. No idea where it came from originally.

I have a new MacBook Pro and I love it, but I also bricked it on the first day, doing nothing more than the standard security precaution of not trusting the installed software. I rebooted into recovery, wiped the drive, and hit install... and whelp, it turned out Apple didn’t provide compatible net boot recovery images until weeks after launch. Had to do a store return and live with the uncertainty of what I was running.

Well, that’s the end of corporate MacBooks, then...

Corporations could probably become authorized. Large entities will have the requisite scale to make it economical.

Not sure what you mean here.

I don't know of a company on this planet who is self repairing Macs.

We self repair macs at our university. We have staff in our dept that are authorized repair techs. I'm sure many larger organizations have a similar setup.

Authorized Service Facilities have access to the required tool.

My company buys Macs on warranty and just ships them back if there are problems.

If you're a company providing expensive computers to white collar workers, you should probably just be giving your people new machines to use while their machines are being repaired anyway. In that scenario, it doesn't really matter if repairs take longer because broken machines need to be shipped to Apple.

Couldn't this protect me from somebody sneaking my laptop while I'm not looking and replacing a part with another that has some spyware attached?

Sounds like it could be pretty useful, but no particular reason why to prevent authenticated users from disabling it if desired.

Well, Apple lost its soul years ago.

Corporations don't have souls.

They do have culture (and philosophys are part of the culture) and this is really what people perceive as its soul. And the culture can change.

Humans don't either =)

That makes no sense. Go have a look at the original Mac 128k.

They were borderline impossible to even open.

Have a look at the macs that followed.

Only because Torx screwdrivers were rare in those days. I can open a 128k Mac now in about two minutes, and that includes the time it takes to buy the screwdriver at Home Depot.

Go have a look at an Apple ][+ -- expandability, hackability and an open architecture were all attractive selling points.

Everyone forget that new MBP have TouchID that authorize payments. Replacing this part could be done at scale and payment keys could be collected and eventually used by bad actors.

I've not looked at the details but maybe they should have make the lock optional to the user. Initially it is unlocked but once enabled, it cannot be disabled. This will give the right level of flexibility.

I'd analogize this to an e2e-by-default messaging app. The average user simply doesn't want to bother, and it's when stuff like this is the default that change happens.

Upon thinking about this more, I think they’re going to alienate a lot of their Chinese and other East Asian customers. Many of them have their computers fixed locally and not at the Apple shop.

Really surprised to see the display on this list. Compared to anything that involves removing ic's or replacing resistors (for example), replacing a display is pretty straight forward.

Doesn't some of the states have a "right to repair" law? If memory serves correctly, Tesla had a trouble with that. Will Apple not be affected?

And since Apple repair shops refuse to touch macs beyond a certain age, it means that it will now be completely impossible to repair an old mac.

When you buy Apple stuff aren't you accepting that you're someone who pays way over the odds for it but that it's the price you pay for the lifestyle choice or something? I mean, I don't get it, as I always try and get the best bang for my buck so Apple stuff, being almost an order of magnitude more expensive doesn't stand a chance but if you can justify throwing money at a phone or laptop can't you just throw a bit more at it when it breaks?

Main issue to me is no self repair and AASP don’t actually repair stuff...

Slight damage needing a few cents worth of caps replaced? Yeah that will be a full board swap. $900 please, oh and we don’t keep that main board in stock (cause Apple doesn’t let us) so it will be a week before we can do the swap...

I don’t mind paying a little extra, I do mind getting fucked over.

Now it does look like this software is only about the pairing of the components (main board, Touch ID, screen...) so component level repair should be fine as long as the cpu or the T2 doesn’t pop, so it’s not completely the end of the world but Apple are taking the piss now.

It’s not about the cost. It’s about the inability for anyone but who Apple chooses to be able to fix your hardware.

It is not a “lifestyle choice”, it was, until recently, the only source of decent developer-oriented hardware with UNIX-like OS, where everything works out of the box. Now there are other options, but they are just as expensive. Good hardware costs money.

Now though they are becoming less and less developer-friendly. I already replaced my desktop — it used to be Mac Pro, now it is a custom Linux box. There are not that many alternatives to Macbooks, but if Apple will continue this kind of politics, I’ll change my laptop as well. And price has nothing to do with that.

I was planning to buy a MBP. Will scout for the older models that are still in market. MBP official repairs are damn costly.

Bought first non Apple notebook in 12 years turns out Ubuntu is fairly usable and docker performs way better than on OS X.

The same experience. But I used Fedora.

Took awhile but finally left the Apple camp. They've been moving mac OS closer to iOS and it finally became untenable for me. I miss it somewhat, but it's clear their focus is not me or my needs so I left.

To me the final straw was the keyboard on the new MBP WTF? Why can Lenovo make a decent keyboard in 1K notebook and Apple can't make usable keyboard on 3.5K one.

And we are running pretty hefty setup in docker Pulsar Cluster, multiple Postgres Instances, ClickHouse and a bunch of services hyperkit spins out of control periodically slowing down MBP to unusable and much less beefy linux notebook is doing OK.

Which laptop did you get and which version of Linux do you run?

I bought a 2015 DELL XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition with Ubuntu. Ubuntu 16.04 has worked very poorly on it from the start. The installer crashed and I had to reinstall. Then the wifi was very slow. It would frequently lock up on resume. Hardware video decoding would occasionally crash and switch to software decoding which is choppy and eats battery power. The touchpad registered clicks while typing. One time the wifi suddenly stopped working after an update. Each of these problems was mostly solved by spending a few hours researching and running various commands as root. Some were fixed by updates after a few weeks. The latest bug is that right-clicking on the taskbar (panel? dash?) does not show any popup menu. So the only way to add buttons for launching programs is to make text files on the desktop with a special format.

I'm sick of the bugs in my Linux laptop. I'm about to get a Mac again.

Honestly bought used ThinkPad 450s (as I primarily use my Mac Pro) installed 1TB SSD and 20GB RAM and pretty happy with it. No issues really. Now thinking of trying out ThinkPad X1 Extreme.

Interesting. I bought the same machine with Windows (because that's what they had at Costco) wiped Windows, installed Ubuntu myself, and haven't had any of these problems.

It'd be interesting to see if 18.04 works better for you.

I've kinda got the opposite experience to you - I'm using the 9350 and Windows constantly BSODs due to some problem with the wifi card drivers (Broadcom). Ubuntu's working fine for me, but I'll be replacing the wifi card with an Intel one and hoping there isn't a BIOS whitelist.

Pop_OS on Lenovo is the bomb. Well, on a T480S at least.

Why would anyone use ubuntu is beyond me, this distro is so bugged and requires so much maintenance.

Try something like manjaro, arch linux, debian, etc.

In states where there's a right to repair law in place, will they have to provide the software to anyone?

This is simply a disgusting move. Guys like Louis Rossman are filling a gap in the market that Apple is not willing to offer: short turnaround repairs. Honestly, politics needs to step in. #RightToRepair

Louis Rossmann does amazing work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc

Unfortunately, his store just caught on fire yesterday.

When it rains, it pours. Poor Louis.

What would it take to reverse this? How about protests at one of their events? Changing Tim Cook's mind is all that's needed.

Speak with your wallet - stop buying Apple products. Tim + the shareholders would notice that.

The usual: make it public and viral, give them a bad rep, attack them on what matters to them: profits.

First grab attention of people on how this is gonna affect them, then enlarge on how apple makes huge profits, out of tax evasion, which impact well being of people around the world, also mention how their devices are made out of forced labour and degrading work conditions, and remind every other scandal.

Don’t worry. The wizards in China will figure out a way around this.

Most likely by cracking the software and then distributing it amongst themselves, but eventually copies will(should?) find their way out into the larger Internet.

Service software for a lot of other consumer hardware (printers, scanners, cameras, etc.) can be found online if you search hard enough.

Are you able to provide any other hints? I've got an older Sony point and shoot that's running some form of Linux (or maybe VxWorks). I'm pretty sure I can put it in debug mode with the right SCSI command.

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