Comment by pbowyer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pbowyer | Hacker News Reader

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> I do take issue with many codes of conduct in the tech space, because I think they tend to be written in a bubble world where everyone assumes that everyone else thinks just like them, but a Code of Merit sounds like it's even more problematic.

I take issue with them because a Codes of Conduct doesn't make a space safe. And also because if we need a written list of what behaviour is tolerated, we have a much greater problem than a code of conduct will solve.

I've seen people write about the former; I haven't about the latter. I find a CoC offputting because it equates me with the lowest of the low. It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong, like being back at school.

I also see it as darker than "assumes that everyone else thinks just like them". Some - not all - are about controlling the world into the form the CoC proponent(s) want it to be. The CoC goes beyond its words and into society.

Neither do I support the Meritocracy thing, as I've had it used on me too many times by people who are super-smart and see that as a reason to be jerks.

> I find a CoC offputting because it equates me with the lowest of the low. It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong, like being back at school.

Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests? What about the enforcement sections of the GPL? I mean, you, not being the lowest of the low, aren't going to write buggy code or reuse software unfairly, right? Isn't it an insult for people to imply that you might?

> Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests?

There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software and brand-new social practices that are difficult to universally enforce. Making the statement "I don't need a list of unprofessional conduct to maintain a professional community" must be true, since you could never enumerate all unprofessional conduct anyway. You'll either leave something out (so the trolls can say "na na na, you can't get me!", in which case the method didn't work) or you'll encompass too many behaviors, which means different trolls can selectively enforce the terms of the CoC. Either way, it seems like a losing scenario.

>What about the enforcement sections of the GPL?

The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses.

> There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software

I'm curious - I've seen debates about test-driven development, or how to appropriately test things, but never debates about whether testing or automated linting itself produced better software.

> The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses.

Sure, but I've never heard anyone criticize it on the grounds that it insulted them or called them untrustworthy, and be taken seriously. Same with testing, come to think of it. There are lots of serious debates; "Are you calling me a bad coder" is not one of them. I'm happy to see debate about different forms of codes of conduct, but why are we taking "I am insulted by this" as a legitimate argument?

Fair point. So the response "it's insulting because it implies I'm a bad person" to a CoC discussion is shaky because the presence of a formal process designed to achieve some objective (e.g. better software, or (in the case of a CoC) a better community) does not imply any particular participant is at-fault, but rather is an evidence-based assessment that without the process the measure of some specific quality degrades. Thanks for the clarification here :)

This is totally outside the scope of your specific point, but I think it is important to note that the objective "a better community" is difficult to measure. My question: is a CoC an evidence-based response? Many software communities have moved to adopt CoCs, but what are the effects? Is there selection bias in studying a community with a CoC because (by virtue of accepting the CoC) the community is more likely to reject unprofessional behavior? How do CoCs function in a global society where actions that are appropriate in one culture might be taboo in another? Who/What is the arbiter of cultural disagreements - NAP? But the understanding of violence/aggression once again falls apart in the wake of cultural differences.

Ultimately, the answers to these questions are decided by the CoC, but who are the authors and evangelizers? The contributor covenant first appeared in 2014, and rapidly (e.g. within 1 year) saw Google (for example, there were many other large tech companies) adopt it for public projects. I believe that we should consider what the motivations are for these multi-national companies to so quickly adopt these rules.

I am not aware of non-anecdotal results here and I would be interested in seeing them - of course many CoC proponents will say that it's the right thing to do whether or not it produces a more technically meritorious project and this is legitimizing the view of a meritocracy, but I am personally expecting the answer to be that the project will in fact be more meritorious, and I think data would go a long way to arguing against (what I perceive as) biases and gut feelings against Contributor Covenant-like CoCs masquerading as data-driven concerns.

> It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong.

Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"?

> Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"?

Are you meaning to equate those who don't follow CoC's to criminals?

My response would be that those are societal norms, we define the transgressors as law breakers, and have a criminal system to deal with them. People take precautions against them.

In the same way I expect to walk into a pub and not get punched in the face, I expect to take part in an open source project and not shit all over someone / be shat on.

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