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Comment by AnIdiotOnTheNet | Hacker News Reader

Only if you care about these minor annoyances more than the major ones offered by the Linux Desktop.

I'd wager there are plenty of Linux Desktop users that feel that the inverse of annoyances are true, including myself.

Assuredly, but that doesn't mean the opposite perspective isn't a legitimate one.

I agree with you there. For the general population, be it family, grandma, or individuals that tend to operate outside the mindset of the general audience here, the learning curve is going to be a bit steeper if you were to put Ubuntu in front of them. However, every one of their newer releases has made strides in terms of ease of use and stability. Personally I think https://snapcraft.io/ lifts a HUGE burden off making popular software available to a non power user who might be new to linux.

I couldn't disagree more. Linux is fine for the kind of people who only use computers to consume content, but then again any personal web kiosk (like a phone or tablet) can easily serve that role so it isn't exactly a high bar.

The real problem areas are when people who want a personal computer try to color outside the lines of whatever the distro developer intended as a use case ("Why would you want to do that?" is a common and annoying response).

> "Why would you want to do that?"

I don't remember a Linus Torvalds say "you're not supposed to hold it this way" to anyone. Instead, …

Unless you want a stable infrastructure to keep binary drivers compatible with newer versions of Linux....

He would probably use a lot more profanity.

Right, except my Windows 98 drivers don't work with Windows 10 either... What's the point?

The point is that your Windows 10 drivers from a year ago still work with the Windows 10 update you did today. This is not true of Linux driver binaries.

Yes, but that's also the reason why Linux has as much hardware support out of the box: because it forces drivers to be developed in-tree.

Windows doesn’t actually come with a dirth of drivers out of the box and it keeps backward compatibility with drivers longer.

I'm okay with directing "why would you want to do that?" at people that want to deliver binary drivers to their customers, since that makes them a lot harder to fix later.

But unless it's a gnome dev speaking, I don't think it's something commonly aimed at users.

> Linux is fine for the kind of people who only use computers to consume content

Consuming content these days often involves DRM, which rarely works on Linux. For example, if the context is books, good luck dealing with Adobe or Amazon DRM to read them on your Linux desktop (you can strip it, but it's a lot more technical than just clicking and opening it on Windows or Mac).

Or how about music? How do you sync your iPhone with your Linux desktop?

Consuming content consists of either connecting to services like Hulu Spotify Netflix Pandora or opening your favorite pirate site and downloading torrents to be consumed in any multimedia app.

Both strategies work fine under linux. Did you not know that Netflix and Hulu work on linux just fine?

Regarding iPhones I would imagine most people who run linux on the desktop just don't bother buying them. Did you know that Apple's global marketshare is only about 15%? More people actually buy just Samsung's android phones than iphones.

This is cherry picking. Yes, there are some services that work on Linux. There are many other popular services that do not, and I even gave specific examples.

Most people who run Linux on the desktop probably won't use iPhones, yeah. Which is because they're computer geeks. Which is to say, not the "kind of people who only use computers to consume content" at all.

In US, iOS market share is about 45% as of 2018. Globally, it's 20% (15% is counting smartphones only and ignoring tablets).

> Which is because they're computer geeks.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the reason to choose Android over iOS. Many use Linux on desktop because it is good enough or better than other choices, but might be ambivalent towards or disapproving of stock android. Android has its flaws and is far from being strictly better than iOS.

You admit that globally 4/5 people don't use iphones which means that most people don't have any need for itunes.

Which services don't work on linux other than itunes?

I literally spelled it out in my initial comment.

> For example, if the context is books, good luck dealing with Adobe or Amazon DRM to read them on your Linux desktop

You can read amazon drm encumbered books with amazon cloud reader. You can run adobe digital editions via wine.

You can also read your ebooks on your nook, kindle, or tablet which would probably actually be a better experience.

You can buy dead tree books.

You can buy non drm encumbered books.

You can buy dead tree books and then go and download a digital version of the same work from library genesis knowing that you have supported the author but not drm. Then you can read on whatever device you like.

If you are poor you can skip the first step and just read the books.

Your local library still exists and is positively full of books.

Many libraries provide free access to technology books via Safari Books.

The claim that you can't enjoy books without windows is a curious claim when so many options exist.

"The real problem areas are when people who want a personal computer try to color outside the lines of whatever the distro developer intended as a use case ("Why would you want to do that?" is a common and annoying response)."

Pick something other than gnome?

to be honest, put grandma in a XFCE distro with Windows 7/XP-like desktop and Chrome and she should be comfortable with anything.

Like Linux Lite distro[0], I'm running it right now and except for the inability of using super/windows key as part of multi-key shortcuts ala Windows 7, it's almost perfect as a drop-in replacement for the latter (for me personally and a couple of my friends)...

[0] https://www.linuxliteos.com/

> to be honest, put grandma in a XFCE distro with Windows 7/XP-like desktop and Chrome and she should be comfortable with anything.

I did this awhile back. Grandma got upset that her library of Windows games, some of which she had been playing for over 15 years, weren't around anymore.

As more and more stuff has moved online, this is less of a problem, but my mother is still reliant upon Flash for certain online games.

Also those online experiences are, in general, inferior. They have lots of ads and pop-ups abound. The web pages are made as confusing as possible to try to entice viewers to click through to a "partner" and sign up for some service, etc etc.

Comparatively, the old Wheel of Fortune game my Grandma got 15 or more years ago (on a physical CD!) is better than anything available now.

Ha, that's what would happen with my dad. All he gives a crap about is his chess game. Hell, just moving to a new laptop with the latest version of Windows screwed up his access to that game for a bit and he had a meltdown.

If he weren't a grouchy old 85 year old man, not too receptive to fancy new technology, I'd buy him an iPad, put a nice chess game on it, and confiscate the PC.

> I'd buy him an iPad, put a nice chess game on it, and confiscate the PC.

Yeah but then a few updates later the chess game adds IAP and starts showing deceptive ads every 5 moves.

Snap/Snapcraft is a perfect example of the pain points Linux ecosystem, because Snap and Flatpak are two different solutions to the same problem. What do you tell grandma if a Flatpak version of her application exists, but not a Snap one?

I've migrated multiple family members to Linux, and I've never had a single one ask how to install an apt. I just make sure all the applications they need (Libre office & Firefox mostly) are installed. This type of user isn't installing things on a regular basis, even on a windows machine.

IMO the real pain points are for more advanced users, I prefer to develop on a Linux box but I have always had to keep a windows installation maintained just for mech CAD software, there simply isn't anything decent avaliable for Linux.

What are the major annoyances offered by "the Linux Desktop"? That I have too many choices and what a headache it is to have to choose a working environment rather than have some particular paradigm forced upon me?

I've recently (tried) helping a friend install Ubuntu on her laptop.

Although it worked fine for my Desktop computer, I ran into numerous issues on hers:

- Touchpad didn't work

- After fixed touchpad, physical touchpad buttons still don't work

- Wifi doesn't work

- Wifi hotspot doesn't work

- Lack of gestures

And others that I can't remember off the top of my head.

What model was it? Most manufacturers only test their hardware on Windows. Canonical maintains a list of devices that are certified to work with Ubuntu[1].

[1] https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/

Be careful about trusting that certification. Note that the 3rd gen Thinkpad x1 Yoga[0] is "certified," however, there is a critical change in the BIOS that prevents the laptop from using s3 sleep mode, apparently to switch to some proprietary Windows sleep mode. Therefore, without any changes, when you close the lid, your battery will drain at about the same speed as if the laptop was running. This is obviously untenable.

The solution is to manually patch your BIOS, which doesn't always work and is extremely technical. It's also not a solution provided by Lenovo, so officially, there is no solution.

Ninjaedit: Hmm, it appears Lenovo may have finally issued a BIOS update to fix this issue.

[0](https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201801-26053/)

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/X1-Carbon-Gen-...

I think the certification means, that all the hardware parts of the device are supported by the OS. The device itself might not even be tested to see if there are no other issues. Generally, it's a problem with newly released devices, that don't have many active users yet.

Sounds similar to my recent experience with Windows 10 - some of those things were fixed by manually installing vendor drivers, but one of them didn't work and figuring out why was a big challenge. On the same machine, GNU/Linux worked pretty much out of the box, you just had to configure the hidpi screen and install a daemon for automatic screen rotation (which was also something I couldn't get to work on Windows after a fresh installation).

> What are the major annoyances offered by "the Linux Desktop"?

Spend about 5 minutes poking around on the internet with your eyes open and you'll see. If you're too lazy for that, this guy has put together a convenient, but by no means complete, list [0].

> rather than have some particular paradigm forced upon me?

You have many paradigms forced upon you, they're just paradigms you happen to be comfortable with so you don't count them.

[0] https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...

> Spend about 5 minutes poking around on the internet with your eyes open and you'll see. If you're too lazy for that, this guy has put together a convenient, but by no means complete, list.

Why don't you just say what they are, rather than trying to offload and displace the question?

> You have many paradigms forced upon you, they're just paradigms you happen to be comfortable with so you don't count them.

Such as what? Monolithic kernel vs microkernel? What paradigm is forced upon me?

> Such a Linux Desktop evangelist comment chain. Step one: ask what problems people are talking about. Step two: completely dismiss and downvote all responses.

Except what problems have you pointed out? You're just hand-waving and saying "Oh course the Linux Desktop is unusable. Just at random webpages - that proves it!"

> Why don't you just say what they are, rather than trying to offload and displace the question?

You asked for examples of problems, so I provide a link to a well put together list of common Linux Desktop problems.

Ok, well you can also search online to see why you're then too.

> Ok, well you can also search online to see why you're then too.

What does that even mean?

"Oh look, my video broke again because a kernel update isn't compatible with my drivers."

"What do you mean my keyboard isn't supported?"

"Why does my battery only last two hours now?"

"Oh, this software is only available from source because the maintainer doesn't bother to release packages for my distro."

"Oh, that's a bug in version X.1, but we patched that 9 versions ago. Why are you still using that?" "I have Debian." "Oh."

conversely: "LOL, my media player broke because @HARDCORE_DISTRO released an alpha package as an update and now sound doesn't work."

On the other hand, I've never had my Linux desktop crash for decompressing a big ZIP archive. Of course, credit where credit is due, Explorer crashing isn't necessarily all that dramatic these days.

The funny thing is, even when decompression "works" on Windows 10 (that is, when you join hands in prayer and don't disturb the machine), you could theoretically just download the decompressed files faster over the internet. I can only guess the there's something fundamentally broken about Windows and file systems because many operations are so ridiculously slow no matter the hardware. It's perhaps my biggest gripe about modern Windows, aside from the actual desktop (working with multiple windows) being very bare and annoying to use, useless set of default applications, and that the built-in localized keyboard layout is obsolete and thus quite restricted as far as punctuation goes.

> On the other hand, I've never had my Linux desktop crash for decompressing a big ZIP archive.

Yeah but I have, on multiple occasions, installed updates through a Linux package manager and after a reboot been brought to the console.

> I can only guess the there's something fundamentally broken about Windows and file systems because many operations are so ridiculously slow no matter the hardware.

NTFS is bad handling a large number of small files.

> aside from the actual desktop (working with multiple windows) being very bare and annoying to use,

How so? I love the hotkeys for snapping Windows, and Windows also has hotkeys for moving windows between monitors.

Lots of third party utility apps exist that can extend this functionality out.

I haven't had any of those problems in the last decade.

I have, however, spent a whole day trying to install Windows 10 because of obscure "can't find drivers message" which turned out really meant "you should unplug your install usb and replug it into a different usb port and then I can find the drivers on it".

Or trying to work with students on a Swift project, only to find out that the MacOS file system pretends to understand Unicode file names, but really ignores them.

> Or trying to work with students on a Swift project, only to find out that the MacOS file system pretends to understand Unicode file names, but really ignores them.

Wait, really? HFS stores Unicode file names in (according to Wikipedia) the "Apple-modified variant of Unicode Normalization Format D)", but it really does store them, I think (unlike case, which it preserves but ignores, which basically means it guarantees wrong behaviour).

None of those has been an issue for at least a decade on any major distro.

I recently tried to install antergos which is basically arch.

Graphics drivers didnt work during install, no big deal, I'll just use text mode. Except the text mode didnt work either for some reason. To fix the issue I would have had to compile my own image, or to trust some random guy on github that he didnt put a rootkit in his installer.

There are definitely annoyances like these which you dont have on windows/mac. You dont need to be a good programmer/hacker to fix issues like this, yet on linux, you sometimes do.

While I really love linux and its distributions, you cant expect endusers to run them without big issues

Who the hell would recommend an Arch flavor to ordinary users? Windows/MacOS should be compared to Ubuntu/Fedora(/Tubleweed). Arch is not ready for anyone who is not very interested in their OS.

I wouldnt recommend Arch to an enduser, that was me trying to install it and failing.

Can ubuntu nowadays install nvidia drivers or does that still not work? For an enduser "installing graphic drivers" is not particularely easy ("what is a driver, why do I need it", etc), yet something pretty basic ("why does this [linux compiled, opengl] game run at 1 fps?")

The work laptop I'm typing this on has NVidia graphics, but all the driver stuff was handled automatically in the installation process and I never even thought about it. I just checked and found the setting where I can stop using proprietary drivers but you have to go out of your way to find that sort of thing.

Installing nvidia drivers is an option directly available in the Ubuntu installer.

Most gamers install drivers. This process is much more difficult on Linux than it is on Windows, though.

Arch is pretty much meant for people who are comfortable with this kind of failures. It even expects you it install it by yourself, with no installer, so well...

Such a Linux Desktop evangelist comment chain. Step one: ask what problems people are talking about. Step two: completely dismiss and downvote all responses.

To be fair, it mainly seems to be your responses that are being dismissed and downvoted. Try being less rude (and less of a hypocrite re: evangelism).

Not really. The only problems I've encountered were problems with drivers for esoteric devices. Still really annoying, but whether that's worse or better than Windows' problems depends on what devices you use and what values you have.

The real problems for me are:

- outdated packages or unstable rolling-distro (OpenSuse Tumbleweed is surprisingly good, but not as well-supported as Ubuntu/Fedora)

- bad game support (few titles and shoddy Windows ports)

I don't know what you guys do to get into all those problems.

In 10ish yeaes Linux has in all except one case:

- installed faster than Windows

- worked out of the box, no hunting for drivers

For me the annoyances of Windows and especially Mac are a lot bigger than those of Linux :-/

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