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Comment by atlasunshrugged | Hacker News Reader

I'm a former Bay Area startupper (Marketing/Sales early stage and a bit of product, not an engineer) and did a stint in Berlin and am currently in Tallinn (Estonia). I think for quality of life Berlin can't be beat, it's a big city but you can choose the right neighborhood for a reasonable price and get any sort of vibe you want from small town to big city hipster (okay maybe there are a few neighborhoods with the latter vibe).

But frankly I doubt you're going to be able to secure a gig at that pay, you'll have to decide if general quality of life is worth the monetary tradeoff. The tech scene itself is much more nascent in Berlin (and way underfunded) but you may be able to parlay your 'Silicon Valley' roots into a sweet senior gig in an innovation lab or as a senior engineer at a bigger corporate that's trying to compete with newcomers which is a big theme in German corporates right now

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I came here to write exactly this. Berlin is #1 tech scene in the world not in terms of the quality of startups, but in terms of the quality of life[1]. You won't make much money here, and you won't need to. In Berlin, a person making 60k has a better quality of life than a person making 200k in Silicon Valley[2]. And it's not only about the prices. You don't need a car in Berlin, at all. Because the entire 3.5 mln city is walkable and cyclable day and night, and a world-class public transportation system can get you and your family anywhere in under 30 minutes, even with your bikes. You also don't need to buy any real-estate, because 85% of the city is renting, and the rental agreements are protected by state from huge price increases. But most importantly, the nature is built into the city itself, so you never feel like you have to leave it[3][4].

[1] https://assets.weforum.org/editor/2vlR8al6iWyoYpVPo25yRwsEap... (#2 for Livability)

[2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[3] https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes

[4] https://www.berlin.de/en/parks-and-gardens/3561883-4407152-p...

Edit: Sorry, skipped the home ownership part. Berlin's real estate market is currently too hot right now. In Munich it's the same - I know some millionaires who couldn't afford homes (with more m2) for their families there. It's generally better to rent for yourself and buy a home as an investment (you get tax breaks and the tenant basically pays the mortgage).

Can vouch for Berlin, too. In Berlin Mitte near Alexanderplatz there are great apartments for approx. $2k/month (around 60m2). It's one of the more expensive areas, but I think it's better for young families who want a calm place.

You will make way less money, though. $5-7k/month should be possible. At SAP you can make $10k/month after some years. But in general it isn't really comparable to US salaries.

For the lang. barrier: Most people speak english and there are many coffee shops where 80% of the employees can only speak english.

Alternatively: I heard that Zurich also pays good, but that the people are not too social and it can be hard to build a social circle there.

How about bureaucracy processes and getting up and running with internet, gas, bank, etc? Doubt that call centers have English speaking guys or forms in other languages

For your bank I recommend N26; it’s one of the tech startups here, an online-only bank, and they talked me through the setup process over my phone in about 10 minutes, in English.

Don’t bother trying it before you actually move though, because the website appears to be geo-locked and the American and UK versions aren’t open yet.

> I recommend N26

> an online-only bank

It's a direct bank as any other, quick internet search will reveal more options in Germany. Their "innovations" in comparison with personal banking even in neighbouring Czechia (e.g. Fio), or Poland (e.g. mBank, Inteligo) are laughable.

What do you mean by “direct”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_bank

Thanks! I’d never heard that term before.

I had originally tried getting an account in a Sparkasse branch, but it was much more difficult than N26. No doubt there are other online only banks, but I cannot comment on their quality without using them.

I had Deutsche Bank and N26 when living in Berlin (in addition to my personal accounts) and strongly recommend N26. Super easy online setup, Black card has some good benefits, and clean mobile and web experiences.

It may be cumbersome, but it's one of the things you do once. Colleagues can help you with translations.

Many internet, phone and other companies employ young people for support tasks who can speak english most of the time, so it shouldn't be a big issue. Especially if you go to offline stores in Berlin to fill out the forms.

I had the opposite experience that I would get constantly hung up on by government offices and even places like Doctors when I lived there and couldn't speak German but still worth the tradeoff and definitely easy enough to get a friendly colleague to help you with translations

Always wanted to work in Berlin. How did you manage the language barrier? I know that most gigs use English as the first language but how about the daily life like doing groceries or calling the phone company for a bad bill?

> calling the phone company for a bad bill

oh, here the knowledge of German doesn't matter - an individual consumer is a pariah with obligatory 2 years contract. One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.

> One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Hordes of fraudsters preying on uninformed foreigners, e.g. one is not covered with oh-so-famous German tenancy laws if the apartment is furnished, exploitive practices with refurbishing the apartment, litigations regarding the return of the deposit, extortive agent fees, etc. A whole long expensive scammy bumpy road at the end of which one is broke financially and exhausted mentally.

I’ve just moved to Berlin (physically, but need to finish the small print).

Groceries are basically not a problem, even if you don’t speak a single word of German and don’t want to rely on Google Translate on your phone: almost all of the products in packaging have pictures of the food on the outside, the tills show you the total at the same time the cashier tells you, most of the shops accept contactless payment (even discount chains), and half the cashiers probably want to practice their English on you.

On the other hand: at some point in the next month, I need to officially register that I’m living here to get an ID card. I’m not looking forward to that, because I’m told the people in charge of that really insists on speaking German, even in Berlin where about 20% the population is Ausländer.

> I’m not looking forward to that, because I’m told the people in charge of that really insists on speaking German, even in Berlin where about 20% the population is Ausländer.

I don't quite get the phrasing "insist[s] on speaking German" - of course they are going to do that, German being the official language and only official language (unlike e.g. Switzerland with four, although unsurprisingly, English still doesn't make the list). Also, if they did allow another language, surely it would be Turkish, not English.

My advice would be to take a friend or colleague. Way easier than trying to do stuff with a translator, or misunderstanding something.

I could certainly have phrased that better. Quite a lot of the Germans I have met seem genuinely shocked that I’m actually learning German; registration is obligatory almost immediately after moving; the country brands itself as a place for immigrants; and English is the current lingua Franca (to the disappointment of the French)… it seems like an odd combination. France or Spain doing the same would be much less of a surprise.

> My advice would be to take a friend or colleague.

That’s the plan :)

Daily life should be no problem even if you don't speak German. There are many people in Berlin who don't speak German.

But if you want to life in Germany for more than a year or two you really should learn the language. Getting to a basic level of German if you're an English speaker is not that hard.

You manage the barrier by learning the language. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I've noticed something with English Speaking folks, they don't want to learn another language. They want people to speak English to them.

It's going to be rough working in English all day, then trying to learn German in the evening, especially if most people interested in talking to you are those who want to practice their English.

It's tough to find people willing to talk with an adult like they're a toddler.

So, I don't think the question is as flippant as you made it out to be. Someone might have some real advice about how to manage the juggling act of learning a new language and culture as a working adult.

That's the trap of working in industry lingua franca of which is your mother tongue. Otherwise public libraries in Germany are very well equipped and have wide selection of audio content - language curses, audiobooks, some might find it more helpful than just grammar handbooks.

Berlin is very good but, again, it always depends on personal circumstances. I'm pretty sure a young adult with a starting family and a comparatively good salary in the US would find it much less attractive than a single, middle-aged, nomad gigster from Western Europe. I mean, the world is going local again but still glocal for people able to work remotely or without serious committments.

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