Ask HN: Where are other tech scenes outside Bay Area | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Where are other tech scenes outside Bay Area

66 pointsxfour97 comments

I feel like I’ve missed the boat when it comes to home ownership here in the Bay Area. Furthermore, my wife wants stability in home ownership for our nascent family, and renting is hardly affordable, not to mention lacking in the potential for growth in equity.

The usual option of Austin doesn’t excite me.

Where else are people going that has a Tech scene?

Currently, I’m working as a Director of Engineering, making 300k+, but it doesn’t seem to matter; all I can afford is either under a freeway or under power lines, it seems. I don’t want to overextend across 30 years.

Any suggestions? I’d be happier, I think, somewhere else, with a lower paying job, incredibly, but I’m having a hard time figuring out somewhere with a good mix of weather, jobs, properties, schools.

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I'm a former Bay Area startupper (Marketing/Sales early stage and a bit of product, not an engineer) and did a stint in Berlin and am currently in Tallinn (Estonia). I think for quality of life Berlin can't be beat, it's a big city but you can choose the right neighborhood for a reasonable price and get any sort of vibe you want from small town to big city hipster (okay maybe there are a few neighborhoods with the latter vibe).

But frankly I doubt you're going to be able to secure a gig at that pay, you'll have to decide if general quality of life is worth the monetary tradeoff. The tech scene itself is much more nascent in Berlin (and way underfunded) but you may be able to parlay your 'Silicon Valley' roots into a sweet senior gig in an innovation lab or as a senior engineer at a bigger corporate that's trying to compete with newcomers which is a big theme in German corporates right now

Always wanted to work in Berlin. How did you manage the language barrier? I know that most gigs use English as the first language but how about the daily life like doing groceries or calling the phone company for a bad bill?

> calling the phone company for a bad bill

oh, here the knowledge of German doesn't matter - an individual consumer is a pariah with obligatory 2 years contract. One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.

> One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Hordes of fraudsters preying on uninformed foreigners, e.g. one is not covered with oh-so-famous German tenancy laws if the apartment is furnished, exploitive practices with refurbishing the apartment, litigations regarding the return of the deposit, extortive agent fees, etc. A whole long expensive scammy bumpy road at the end of which one is broke financially and exhausted mentally.

I’ve just moved to Berlin (physically, but need to finish the small print).

Groceries are basically not a problem, even if you don’t speak a single word of German and don’t want to rely on Google Translate on your phone: almost all of the products in packaging have pictures of the food on the outside, the tills show you the total at the same time the cashier tells you, most of the shops accept contactless payment (even discount chains), and half the cashiers probably want to practice their English on you.

On the other hand: at some point in the next month, I need to officially register that I’m living here to get an ID card. I’m not looking forward to that, because I’m told the people in charge of that really insists on speaking German, even in Berlin where about 20% the population is Ausländer.

> I’m not looking forward to that, because I’m told the people in charge of that really insists on speaking German, even in Berlin where about 20% the population is Ausländer.

I don't quite get the phrasing "insist[s] on speaking German" - of course they are going to do that, German being the official language and only official language (unlike e.g. Switzerland with four, although unsurprisingly, English still doesn't make the list). Also, if they did allow another language, surely it would be Turkish, not English.

My advice would be to take a friend or colleague. Way easier than trying to do stuff with a translator, or misunderstanding something.

I could certainly have phrased that better. Quite a lot of the Germans I have met seem genuinely shocked that I’m actually learning German; registration is obligatory almost immediately after moving; the country brands itself as a place for immigrants; and English is the current lingua Franca (to the disappointment of the French)… it seems like an odd combination. France or Spain doing the same would be much less of a surprise.

> My advice would be to take a friend or colleague.

That’s the plan :)

Daily life should be no problem even if you don't speak German. There are many people in Berlin who don't speak German.

But if you want to life in Germany for more than a year or two you really should learn the language. Getting to a basic level of German if you're an English speaker is not that hard.

You manage the barrier by learning the language. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I've noticed something with English Speaking folks, they don't want to learn another language. They want people to speak English to them.

It's going to be rough working in English all day, then trying to learn German in the evening, especially if most people interested in talking to you are those who want to practice their English.

It's tough to find people willing to talk with an adult like they're a toddler.

So, I don't think the question is as flippant as you made it out to be. Someone might have some real advice about how to manage the juggling act of learning a new language and culture as a working adult.

That's the trap of working in industry lingua franca of which is your mother tongue. Otherwise public libraries in Germany are very well equipped and have wide selection of audio content - language curses, audiobooks, some might find it more helpful than just grammar handbooks.

Edit: Sorry, skipped the home ownership part. Berlin's real estate market is currently too hot right now. In Munich it's the same - I know some millionaires who couldn't afford homes (with more m2) for their families there. It's generally better to rent for yourself and buy a home as an investment (you get tax breaks and the tenant basically pays the mortgage).

Can vouch for Berlin, too. In Berlin Mitte near Alexanderplatz there are great apartments for approx. $2k/month (around 60m2). It's one of the more expensive areas, but I think it's better for young families who want a calm place.

You will make way less money, though. $5-7k/month should be possible. At SAP you can make $10k/month after some years. But in general it isn't really comparable to US salaries.

For the lang. barrier: Most people speak english and there are many coffee shops where 80% of the employees can only speak english.

Alternatively: I heard that Zurich also pays good, but that the people are not too social and it can be hard to build a social circle there.

How about bureaucracy processes and getting up and running with internet, gas, bank, etc? Doubt that call centers have English speaking guys or forms in other languages

For your bank I recommend N26; it’s one of the tech startups here, an online-only bank, and they talked me through the setup process over my phone in about 10 minutes, in English.

Don’t bother trying it before you actually move though, because the website appears to be geo-locked and the American and UK versions aren’t open yet.

> I recommend N26

> an online-only bank

It's a direct bank as any other, quick internet search will reveal more options in Germany. Their "innovations" in comparison with personal banking even in neighbouring Czechia (e.g. Fio), or Poland (e.g. mBank, Inteligo) are laughable.

What do you mean by “direct”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_bank

Thanks! I’d never heard that term before.

I had originally tried getting an account in a Sparkasse branch, but it was much more difficult than N26. No doubt there are other online only banks, but I cannot comment on their quality without using them.

I had Deutsche Bank and N26 when living in Berlin (in addition to my personal accounts) and strongly recommend N26. Super easy online setup, Black card has some good benefits, and clean mobile and web experiences.

It may be cumbersome, but it's one of the things you do once. Colleagues can help you with translations.

Many internet, phone and other companies employ young people for support tasks who can speak english most of the time, so it shouldn't be a big issue. Especially if you go to offline stores in Berlin to fill out the forms.

I had the opposite experience that I would get constantly hung up on by government offices and even places like Doctors when I lived there and couldn't speak German but still worth the tradeoff and definitely easy enough to get a friendly colleague to help you with translations

I came here to write exactly this. Berlin is #1 tech scene in the world not in terms of the quality of startups, but in terms of the quality of life[1]. You won't make much money here, and you won't need to. In Berlin, a person making 60k has a better quality of life than a person making 200k in Silicon Valley[2]. And it's not only about the prices. You don't need a car in Berlin, at all. Because the entire 3.5 mln city is walkable and cyclable day and night, and a world-class public transportation system can get you and your family anywhere in under 30 minutes, even with your bikes. You also don't need to buy any real-estate, because 85% of the city is renting, and the rental agreements are protected by state from huge price increases. But most importantly, the nature is built into the city itself, so you never feel like you have to leave it[3][4].

[1] https://assets.weforum.org/editor/2vlR8al6iWyoYpVPo25yRwsEap... (#2 for Livability)

[2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[3] https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes

[4] https://www.berlin.de/en/parks-and-gardens/3561883-4407152-p...

Berlin is very good but, again, it always depends on personal circumstances. I'm pretty sure a young adult with a starting family and a comparatively good salary in the US would find it much less attractive than a single, middle-aged, nomad gigster from Western Europe. I mean, the world is going local again but still glocal for people able to work remotely or without serious committments.

Have you worked with a real estate agent and lender to see what properties you could afford? You might be surprised with what you can afford.

I recently moved from SF to San Diego about a year ago and just bought a house. It’s not that we couldn’t afford a house in the Bay Area. Just that in SD we could afford a house in a neighborhood we’d actually want to live in.

It’s a different market down here. Lots of biotech and defense contractors. Primarily Java, C++, C# but you can find some ruby and php positions. I haven’t seen any python and very little node.js positions but they are out there. Startup scene is obviously much smaller but if you look hard enough you can find some great companies.

Pretty familiar with San Diego, it’s the nicer part of Southern California from my perspective.

My Cousin just opened a Brewery called the Kensington which I believe is the name of the neighborhood as well.

What neighborhood did you land in?

What’s the percentage difference in Salary you’d expect? Say Mid Level Developer in SF is ~150-200k at this point would it be 100k median or so?

Well, nowhere you could get the SV rates. Yet, nowhere you'd be struggling on a quarter a million.

There is tech beyond SV. My current company is distributed between a second tier city in Croatia and a semi-rural town in NZ. We are in the end-of-life tech, and are taking the Advisor track at Startup School.

Times when you had no tech other than ol' skool corporate IT beyond SV, London, and a few other spots are gone. My current city, Osijek, a second tier city has some amazing tech that is quite prominent globally. Farmeron (AgTech) was founded here and later acquired, https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-gideon-brother-11... . Infobip (telco infrastructure software) was founded in a semi rural town in Istria region in Croatia.

Don't overlook Eastern Europe. Estonia, Czech, Romania, Poland got amazing tech scenes, and the life is good.

If you work remotely, options are even more abundant.

Don't mind that SV is actually quite vulnerable and gets hit badly by recessions, bursts, etc.

As of the US. New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, are all quite livable.

Does your company employ any US citizens in Croatia? I understand that the taxes would not be able to be deducted from one's US taxes - so basically one would pay double taxes.

We do hire some freelancers / contractors / advisors. So far they are in Croatia, Serbia, UK, Malta, France, Cyprus, Israel.

Not sure on taxation for the US citizens, sorry.

SLC, Utah is pretty great, I almost don’t want to mention it because the tech jobs are great and the state provides a lot to do.. its like a hidden gem no one thinks about because they consider it Mormon land...

There are a lot of companies opening offices out here though!

Sounds pretty interesting. On a more micro (neighborhood level) of suburb level what areas are worth checking out.

On the job front, what companies do you think are innovative or majors opening branches are worth looking at?

For living? There’s a lot of choice, I love sugarhouse which is where I am. It’s close enough to hit downtown without being in the “heart of it”. Which, in slc is still not that much... you can easily choose to be further or closer to downtown life depending on what you want. A lot of the tech scene is actually down south by Lehi. I commute that direction about 25-30 min and it’s not too bad.

There are some established big players here, Adobe, and EBay and I think Walmart labs has an office here. I work for Ubiquiti, which is growing out their office here pretty quickly also.

A lot of small/medium sized startups too... Google around for “Silicon Slopes” which is the sort of name the local VCs give the area.

We moved from the bay to SLC in November to be closer to my wife's parents (second kid) and own a nice home in a nice neighborhood (Cottonwood Heights, highly recommended).

That part is spectacular. We have our choice of clean, nicely appointed parks full of kids 3 minutes walk in either direction, 2 minute drive to get into the canyons, and I have a big garden.

The options for jobs and salaries are nothing like the bay. Software engineers rarely make over 120k here. Plenty of techish companies scattered all around the valley and Park City, but not many I was excited about. I took a job in Kimball Junction (PC), commuting 26 minutes. Here that qualifies as a big commute.

Until recently, SLC was mostly LDS and mountain lovers, and the work culture reflects both groups' regard for to their non-work life. The company I joined is based in SV and almost all of the people in the office are transplants. I think that's because the company's work/life balance expectations are not in line with what most people want around here.

I have to echo this. Utah is really booming, although home prices here are exploding as well (nowhere near as high as SV, but rapidly increasing) because of the burgeoning tech scene.

Every once in a while I will entertain solicitations from SV/Seattle recruiters for 2x+ the money and then realize I would be worse off financially than just staying in SLC.

I did a year in Berlin and tend to agree with Peter Thiels assessment - “I always thought Berlin would be a great place for innovation, but now I think it’s a place people in their 20s move to when they want to retire”

Personally I had a lot of good times in Berlin, but it didn't feel like it had the drive of the valley.

Recently moved to Toronto, and loving it here so far. Great scene, smart & friendly people and lots of growth.

Not trying to badmouth Berlin, it's a super cool city. Just didn't hit the mark for me.

https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-...

To put it simply, in a "work and life balance" Berlin is inevitably more about life than about work. And if your personal growth depends on the people you are surrounded by, it might not always be the best place to live in.

Portland has a thriving tech scene with 4,782 open jobs [1] at the moment. Home prices are about a third of the median in SF/SV.

[1] http://portlandtech.org/

Portland is definitely somewhere I’ve been thinking. Schools seem to be an issue in a lot of neighborhoods except Lake Oswego. Anywhere closer to the city know for good schools?

Also what’s your favorite companies of those 4K openings I should look into?

Forest Heights has good schools, is affordable (by Bay Area standards at least) and is a short drive to downtown, 10-25 minutes depending on where and what time of day.

A couple of years ago I seriously looked at the Camas / Vancouver area, just across the line from Portland. No income tax in Washington of course (if you work in Portland that obviously changes the equation, as opposed to remoting). Use Portland for the nearby metro benefits, and housing prices in the region are drastically better than Seattle. I can't speak to the schools in the area however.

Unless you're at the giant Beaverton-based corporations (Intel, Nike, etc.), salaries seem to be about a third also.

We left the Bay Area two years ago and went to Prague. I miss Philz and Blue Bottle but we are pretty happy here. Similar scene as Berlin - not quite as nice but cheap with lots of green space everywhere. If your wife has an EU passport you should be fine anywhere in Europe. I'm freelancing for clients in the Bay Area and east coast (software eng) so I'm lucky to have best of both worlds.

I would imagine you have a good network of people in tech so you could probably transition to freelance work and live anywhere. Email me if you want to discuss. Co-work spaces here are anywhere from $100 - $500/mo. Internet is so blazing fast it's ridiculous - 300mbs on ethernet in our apartment. What we had in SF was pathetic.

Condo prices in central Prague are about $4,500usd/m2 - so 500k usd will get you a nice 2 bedroom in a really nice neighborhood. For the same money you can move 20 minutes by train outside the center and get a small house with a yard.

If you are leaning towards Europe the best tech scenes IMO are in Berlin, Amsterdam and Barcelona. Barcelona has really been picking up in the last few years and is probably the cheapest.

I make similar salary and have a nice 3000sqft house that I paid $1mn for in the Bay Area. Areas where you can still buy SFH just around a million include Oakland Hills, Orinda, Walnut Creek, Union City, Dublin, Hayward parts of San Jose. Try to find a new construction so that you don't have to deal with competition

If you are relocating to Europe, Amsterdam is great.

The economy is good, the tech scene is already good and booming. A lot of local startups, bigger and bigger local companies and the typical international tech startups are here.

Salary are lower but the cost of life too and you'll live way better here. Home prices, groceries, restaurants/bars and travels are mostly cheaper. I'd say I spend almost half in Amsterdam than what I was spending in SF, for a pretty similar life style. This sounds true to most of my friends who did the same move.

Everyone speaks english, so you won't have to rush to learn Dutch. There are great english-speaking private schools that you'll be able to afford, or free Dutch schools, to which your kids will adapt very quick if they are still young.

I've heard good things about Dublin. Anyone here on HN able to speak from direct experience?

Personally live in Seattle and love it, but I got in before the major boom and it is not nearly as affordable as 5-10 years ago. Still think it is a major upgrade to SF, though.

Compared to other European capitals, when I was there a few years ago, the tech scene in Dublin was relatively small. I think it's grown a bit now, but at the same time I've heard rental prices have gone up quite substantially.

Also worth mentioning that whatever happens with Brexit will have an affect on Ireland too (probably in a bad way), due to the shared border with the UK.

The tech scene in Dublin has definitely expanded in the last few years but the renting market is very bad. You would be looking at paying prices similar to London houseshares for less pay. That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again.

Ireland will likely take some form of impact from Brexit, especially if tariffs are brought in on trade of goods with the UK. I would still think that the tech scene shouldn't be too impacted and may see more growth if multinational comapanies move after Brexit.

> That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again.

The property market of renting and buying is in an expensive deadlock (relatively to local earnings) everywhere from Lisbon to Krakow, from Reykjavik to Barcelona. I wouldn't expect it to just "drop" by itself anywhere as too many significant entities are betting on it.

The impact on tech is mixed, as there are quite a few multinationals moving from London to Dublin to stay within the EU.

There are loads of decent tech jobs in Dublin, but generally in established companies (including banks and telcos) rather than startups.

There's a vibrant enough tech Meetup scene too, so even if you're just paying the bills with a mundane IT role you can still meet interesting people doing cool things.

We're stuck in a major housing crisis though, so accommodation in or near the city is very expensive and hard to find.

Is being part of tech scene a requirement? Chicago is pretty nice, affordable and cosmopolitan.

Tech Scene for me personally provides a type of insurance. Here in the Bay Area you just have 1000s of companies bit and small contributing to this insane ecosystem that feels so that you could get a new job if necessary relatively easily.

In other cities it seems like you have a single or a few employers and if it didn’t work out with them you’d need to uproot your life and move areas again. Having an ecosystem like that allows a bit more options.

That being said I don’t imagine Chicago to be like that, what tech companies do you like in that area? As that’s what I’m qualified to do.

You don't need to be at a tech company to work as a programmer.

True, never really thought about that software tech really is in every industry. Do you do that and is it fulfilling?

My definition of fulfilling is getting a check large enough to live a comfortable life in the burbs where I get to come home at a reasonable time.

For you to have to spell that out is evidence of how large the HN SV bubble is.....

Contrarian thought: if/when the tech bubble bursts, there's suddenly going to be 1000s of companies laying off software engineers in Silicon Valley, who will all be furiously competing for what jobs remain. By comparison, working in IT at a non-SV/not-pure-tech company, in a town with lots of other non-tech companies, would be much better insurance.

Any largish city will have 1000's (or at least 100's) of companies wanting to hire software developers. Unless you're actively looking you'll probably go your whole life without hearing about 99.99% of them.

There might not be as many as the Bay area, but there is more than enough to keep your employment stable until retirement. As a bonus, much fewer of them will be unstable startups.

Never been interested in being at the “director” level, but most major metropolitan cities have your standard corporate IT jobs in development, project management, etc.

For instance in Atlanta, you may not make $300K a year, but you can buy a 2500 square foot house for $400K - $600K in one of the most affluent areas in the country (measured by median household income) - John’s Creek. If you go a little further up north to Forsyth - one of the most affluent counties in the US, you can get a 3000 square foot house, brand new build with all of the niceties for less than $350K.

Also the “tech scene” is not all it’s cracked up to be during a recession when non profitable companies are dependent on VC funding. There were plenty of tech jobs in profitable corporate companies during both the 2000 dot com bust and the 2008 recession.

Edit: personal anecdote:

I had just been working three years when the dotcom bust happened. The company I worked for didn’t blink. They gave almost everyone $10K raises that year and 20% bonuses because the local market was still thriving.

2008 was slightly harder, developers could find contract work but a lot of companies weren’t hiring permanent employees. Middle management and project managers were hit hard.

I think the biggest question is how long do you want to commute? If you are willing to do the 70-90m daily commute then their are plenty of areas on central nj and pa that are commutable to NYC.

and 300k a year will buy you a large homestead in those areas.

Seattle? You can also land a job working remotely, and live whereever you please.

I hear Seattle has gotten just as expensive as SF not true?

Remote is interesting for sure. The rise of companies like Buffer and I believe the Wordpress company is 100% remote.

Definitely solves half my issue also looking for somewhere actually nice to live.

Seattle should be okay if you already have a partner. Everywhere is growing insanely, but there's still affordable property out there (e.g. north) if you don't mind an awful commute, or are willing to do park & ride/public transport. With the growth rate, those communities will become really lively/ruined, too (depends on your PoV).

Could be worth waiting until HQ2 is announced though. Families won't necessarily be interested moving, but there's enough people around who'll make the jump, which maybe helps with prices? Who knows.

Seattle is expensive, but not near as much as SF.

I actually think here is one of the best places to leave. You can find SV level paychecks, no income tax, and housing for half of the price!

Also, 45 minutes out of the city core (light traffic) gets real affordable compared to in-city.

If you can bus or commute off-hours it can work.

RTP (Research Triangle Park, Raleigh/Durham NC)

edit: (in the original post I only posted the 'RTP' acronym.)

I was gonna say Raleigh, NC. After looking up what RTP refers to, I am pleasantly surprised to see this as the first answer!

Yea I googled it, Research Park Triangle it seems. It seemed really interesting. Housing seemed to be pretty reasonable by California standards.

What neighborhoods are worth checking out and what companies are interesting.

Saw a lot of NetApp and IBM. Nothing wrong with those just seems like not a lot of companies just a few of ones from first glance.

Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Epic (Fortnite), SAS, Microsoft, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, a bunch of smaller startups/companies, etc.

I moved down here 5 years ago (from Buffalo, NY) but I work remotely for a non-local company.

As far as neighborhoods good, we're happy in Holly Springs, Apex is north of us, and Fuquay-Varina is just to the south. Cary is by far the most desirable area due to it's proximity to RTP. We decided we wanted more house/backyard than we could afford in Cary and so we settled in Holly Springs. If I had to work in RTP I'd hop on the 540 (toll road) and be there in 30 minutes.

Look into Ottawa.

Ottawa is a great place to raise a family, coffee (specifically little victories, happy goat, and black squirrel) and food culture is fantastic, great city for outdoor activities such as biking, rowing, hiking, etc..., very dog friendly city, 2 hours away from Montreal, 4.5 from Toronto.

Not sure about tech salaries but I'm sure with your experience you can negotiate something similar.

If you're looking for a Bay Area vibe I'd say the glebe is as close as you can get.

Have you considered getting a private pilot license? That should cost around a month of your salary, and open up a much longer commute without adding time… at least, that’s the impression I’ve had when considering the Bay Area.

Do you know anybody who commutes by plane? It's an interesting notion, but something tells me it's too expensive of a commute, even for Bay Area salaries.

I occasionally read about people doing it, and a Bay Area air taxi startup kept trying to sign me up for a free trial… but no, no personal experiences of people I know.

I wouldn’t consider it for someone earning less than about $180k/year, just because of how much licensing and vehicles cost, but the comment I was responding to said >$300k.

I've seen Los Angeles being called 'silicon beach' (around Venice and Santa Monica) and I've read that the Midwest (Omaha I think) is being referred to as 'silicon prairie'.

I’ve heard people complaining that LA is just as bad as the Bay now housing costs vs Salaries.

Anyone live in the Midwest and can chime in on their experiences?

My sample size is very small, but everyone I know who moved from SF to LA for tech jobs get pretty much the same salary and housing is still cheaper, even for places right in Venice/Santa Monica.

The idea that home ownership guarantees growth is a fallacy. In most cities prices only keep up with inflation.

Ergo you are financially better off renting, and investing the money you would have spent on a house.

Only if the returns of your investments minus the rent still beat inflation.

Unless you've timed your real estate purchase and sale very well and happen to live in an exceptional city the average return of the public markets is most likely to exceed.

A house is an inflation hedge. I live in a metro area. Rent went up from $1200 a month in 2012 to $1700 a month in 2016. Now it is $2100 a month. This was for a 3 bedroom 1600 square foot apartment. We moved into a 2900 square foot house, a new build, where the mortgage is about the same.

A fixed rate mortgage will only change slightly with property taxes and insurance.

Even if the value of the house only goes up with inflation, you still get larger returns because you can take advantage of leveraging other people’s money.

Also, a paid off house means that’s one expense you don’t have to worry about after you retire.

Lot of good stuff happening in Scottsdale and Tempe Arizona. Cost of living is fantastic.

Lehi, Utah as others have mentioned is great too. I moved from there back to AZ to escape the show though.

What show was so scary it chased you back to AZ? Book of Mormon?

J/K assuming you meant snow.

Jokes aside what companies do you like in the area?

Cost of living is not much better but I'm personally partial to Boston and you can get houses in the surrounding bedroom communities for not too bad. If you don't mind going North of Boston, southern New Hampshire has a lot to offer but the tech scene is still pretty small.

Miami, Tampa, Orlando. Cost of living is low in Florida. Although you wont make as much as SV, you will live very well. Plenty of family friendly picture perfect communities for young professionals.

Stockholm, Sweden. Good tech scene, bad housing, but very family friendly (heavily subsidized kindergarten, free schools, paid parental leave, etc.).

I came to London 8 year back and I love the tech scene here.

Thought rents/commute etc could be steep, one can expect decent salary as well.

London but it’s a dirty miserable existence!

Denver, Colorado.

Last I looked at Denver-Boulder (maybe 10 years ago), the software jobs there were almost exclusively on the Microsoft stack. Has that changed?

Montana. We have SoFi, Oracle, Submittable, OnX Maps, etc.

With respect, Austin is full. We don’t need any more ex-Californites moving here and driving up real estate prices even further. Thanks!

You’re welcome to visit anytime you like, however.

Come to Berlin

Had a friend that recently washed out of SoundCloud and returned to the U.S. I spent some time there and went to the disrupt Europe when it was in Berlin. I might be able to swing it long term as my wife has an Italian passport but would be a longer process with that.

Seemed like when I was there it was something about a rocket and cloning US tech and SoundCloud were the two big games in town.

Has there gotten to be a more critical mass of companies there recently?

Amazon is here, Twitch is here, Google is in the process of opening an office here. Microsoft has an office too, but I don't know whether it's engineering or not. Pivotal Labs has an office here. There is also Siemens who is desperately looking to adapt to the "digital transformation". There is a pretty healthy startup scene of smaller companies, check e.g. https://www.startupnight.net/startups or https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-institutes/directory/. There are also a number of smaller companies that aren't startups.

Selling clothes, food, and insurances over the internet is big in Berlin nowadays. All "machine learning" - the user asks for shoes and gets a clown outfit, annual subscription to a local sushi place, and everything is fully insured in case of failure of German pension system. Positioning in Google search results is booming also.

Bay Area is still first, but these are not far behind:

1. Oxford-Cambridge-London in the UK

2. Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Hong Kong in China

3. Israel

Housing in London is almost as bad as in SV. Don't mind the gloomy Brexit prospects.

Tel Aviv is awesome. Still housing is an issue. Getting a residence permit unless you are Jewish or marry is way harder than in many other developed countries. Other than that, a great option.

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