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Comment by fasafsaf3 | Hacker News Reader

We can either stop this madness or accept the results of a democratic referendum.

No, this is a nonsense absolutist standpoint.

Britain held a referendum - one which probably shouldn’t have been held as it was, but it’s too late to hand-wring about that now. But the way in which the outcome is being executed is absolutey shameful and there are a number of things which could be done:

- the referendum outcome could be fulfilled by formally withdrawing from the EU while retaining most of the machinery involved - single market membership in particular.

- The UK government could make a clear and achievable proposal for what a post-Brexit relationship with the EU might look like. They had a stab at this, but the outcome failed to be either clear or achievable.

- The UK government could pledge to hold a second referendum once the end state of UK-EU relations is more clearly known. This fulfills any objections over democratic representation.

Any of these would be far better and far less cliff-edge than the current policy.

If having another referendum was an option, I assure you, the PM would have held not one but fifteen by now.

The moment you put into question the foundation of the democratic process, the situation will become completely unmanageable by the establishment.

Interesting viewpoint. I had considered a second referendum politically impossible in the sense of acceptance by the polity. Not in the sense of democratically existentially impossible.

But it seems (maybe this is some sort of positivity bias on my part) a second referendum is becoming more politically acceptable in both aforementioned senses. Though it'd be nice, if that never happens, if "someone" would fall on their sword for a second referendum, as really I think that's the only really democratic way forward.

> I had considered a second referendum politically impossible in the sense of acceptance by the polity.

I agree in principle. That is what should be.

I believe that we live in dangerous times. The political centre (e.g. labour & tories in the UK) is in dire straits in Europe and the US. Any action that puts strain into the democratic process, I'm afraid will be in advantage of the misanthropic, xenophobic warmongering groups. I'm afraid a new referendum might catapult the UKIP from ~2% to 5% or 10% turning it, much like the AfD, the third political power in the UK. Might sound a bit out of touch now, but historically, will not be the first time something like that happens in a country. What fuels these changes is the delegitimisation of existing democratic processes and organisations by those in position of power.

Democracy is a fragile flower. Takes months, sometimes years to grow but seconds to destroy.

The people most vocal before the referendum (such as Nigel Farage) resigned after they "won" and admitted most of the pro-brexit campaign was bullshit (such as NHS funding). This was very much a con many people would like to reverse.

I'm going to paraphrase the referendum choices here.

1. The status quo.

2. Imagine how things could be better. Don't constrain your imagination with realism.

It's a wonder option 2 only won by 2 percent. The only democratic way forward is to have a referendum on the final "deal".

Well, the other side is also constantly going: "Imagine how things could be worse. Don't constrain your imagination with realism."

Let's check back in 1-2 years if the sky has fallen...

But there's no referendum on that. My main point is that the referendum wasn't very sensible and should probably always have had two stages. X = "What kind of Brexit do we want" then "remain vs. X". I expect "hard Brexit" vs. remain would have gone the other way, for example.

And the way to rectify this is to have a referendum on the reality of the eventual deal vs. the reality of the status quo.

GB existed before the EU and will continue to exist after it.

Nobody thinks otherwise, but “the country will continue to exist” is a pretty low bar to achieve. I’m much more concerned about a massive spike in prices, people leaving the country, and difficulty importing and exporting goods.

A democratic referendum can be rigged by the emotions ruling at the moment of said referendum. You'd think if it would be repeated it would get the same outcome?

So let's have people who know our best interests and are not "rigged" themselves decide for us?

Well, in my opinion the "people who know our best interests" are the ones who sold Brexit as the new solution for everything, skipping the true nature of it.

"rigged by emotions"

New voting requirement-- before entering the booth, must provide proof you are entirely devoid of all emotions whatsoever.

This is important enough that you want to get it right, which means you want most voters absolutely sure they want the outcome. Take three votes over five years to be sure. A one-off referendum with an issue of this magnitude is like voting for a party once and then having it stay in power forever.

It’s strange how a referendum on a totally unknown outcome is considered democracy, whereas another referendum once the terms of the deal become known would be a “gross mockery of democracy” to quote May.

Is the will of the people only applicable when people can’t even know what they’re asked?

advisory and non-binding referendum

If there was another vote to reverse the Brexit-decision and people voted for that in majority, you could stop the madness and accept the results. Things change. Being stubborn is rarely the best option.

True. And even if no-one has changed their mind, the result may well be different. Leave voters, being older, are expiring at a much faster rate.

... a referendum in which none of the outcomes were properly understood by anyone voting leave. running it again when the exit deal has been qualified is the only democratic way to do this.

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