Comment by tachyonbeam | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tachyonbeam | Hacker News Reader

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I think of it the same way. Money is power, and the most important kind of power for your own well-being is control over your own life. Whenever I get very stressed at work, I find it reassuring to think that, worst case scenario, I have enough "fuck you money" piled up that I could walk away and take my time to look for a new job on my own terms. Knowing this in the back of my mind also allows me to negotiate my working conditions more boldly. I dare to pick projects I'm interested in and say no to others.

I have a fairly high-paying job, but I would like to find a way to earn more eventually. Not so I can be filthy rich and buy myself ridiculous things most people can't afford, but so I can have the freedom to take a sabbatical and travel, or start my own business, or heck, retire early, while I'm still healthy enough to enjoy life.

I grew up poor, and to me, having more earnings/savings makes me feel more safe and in control of my life. The biggest difference it has made recently is going from having roommates to having my own place. I'm an introvert, I need time alone, and I find it really rewarding to be able to come home to my own little sanctuary after work.

Compounded interest is your friend. Start using the stock market. It's the only way to make money without working "hard." Rule of 72 is something you can read about.

This is a very easy statement to make in the middle of an unprecedented bull market. But you know what they say about things that go up . . .

...they go into orbit?

While I'm a big believer that we're going to see a big correction in the next couple of years (the kind that will make 2008 look like a foreshock), nobody knows how much higher the market can go and for how long. Maybe it will still be going up before I die.

The conventional wisdom is to never try to time the market. Buy and hold, and in the long run you'll make money.

> Buy and hold, and in the long run you'll make money.

Is that where Bitcoin's HODL "wisdom" comes from?

Also, don't bet on one horse.

That's why you should buy a fund/ETF tracking the All Country World Index.

I agree. I'm still waiting on my dogecoins to make me a millionaire!

Yes, but a good number of individual investors will pour money into the markets only when things get super frothy and exciting (i.e. at the peak) and then freak out and pull all their money out of the markets when we see a huge downturn.

And those people are the reason everyone else says not to do that, not to time the market, and to invest for the long term. If you stick to an established plan, adjust your allocation according to that plan, and don't panic sell, historically you will have always come out ahead.

http://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-...

The important thing the linked article shows is that even if you're always investing right before crashes the market still trends upwards and you still come out ahead — as long as you don't panic sell.

Of course, there is a difference of how much ahead. If you would have invested few months later you could have come much more ahead.

Yes. If you can (accurately) predict the future you can make a hell of a lot of money far faster than 43 years with out of the money options.

Out of the money options are really risky if there is a pullback. ITM options 30-45 DTE can you make tons of money.

Correct, but I think this is easier said than done sometimes - especially if you've only been investing during a huge bull market. As Mike Tyson once said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Not really, regardless of the state of the market, you are probably better off keeping your stock than selling it.

This seems true, however the following quote is worth mentioning:

“The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/09/remain-solvent/

All the more reason to constantly tell people the right thing to do and why and strategies to avoid letting fear and other emotions get the better of them in those situations. We can all be susceptible to such things, but with a little education and discipline can avoid making terrible mistakes like that.

As Warren Buffet once observed, the stock market is just a device for transferring money from the impatient to the patient.

Or the desperate to the well-bufferred.

There are opportunities in bull and bear markets. Also, has the $SPY ever gone to $0? If you have the belief that it will, well, when that happens, we are all screwed. No point thinking doomsday.

But let's step back and calculate suppose you got into $SPY in 2007 at 155. If you had kept the $10K in there, it would be worth $20K today almost. However, if you had kept adding money to it each year, your return would be massive. As you get older, you move from more index holdings to bonds, which guarantees you to hold your money. Another method is dividends, if you had AAPL shares, suppose 1000 shares @ 0.50 per quarter, that's $2.00 a year on 1000 shares, $2000 a year. If you had a family member who doesn't work and owns all the shares, in Canada, that would be up to $60,000 each year you can earn tax free.

I don't hold any stock, although I believe it is safe to do so, I currently only own 2 shares of TSLA as I wanted to be eligible for the class action lawsuit if there ever was one. I only trade options and I believe that is the safest way to make money and never go bankrupt.

Also, if you buy stock you can also sells calls/puts against your shares to protect you from a downside/flat days.

To reiterate, the statement above, is always easy to make, because this is the only way to make money. If you don't get into the market, then each year your money is running away from you, see inflation. Ally savings accounts just aren't as helpful.

Hopefully I have changed your mind and you will start looking into Vanguard funds at the minimum.

This is all very true but you mentioned not working hard in your previous post. It seems that you are working hard to research the best opportunities, hedge your positions, etc. (it's not like you're digging ditches but still). Perhaps I was too quick to judge your post as a "make tons of money without any work" comment. I would agree that being passively invested in the market is better than sitting in cash or trying to time it.

With that said, I am nervous about the current market. I'm still invested but am starting to diversify into buy and hold real estate in established locations. One thing I don't like about the market is the impact that some random geopolitical event can have and I don't see the world moving toward more stability at the moment.

One other approach when you don't trust the market is to pay off debt (if you have any).

Depending on the interest rates of the debt you hold and how long it's supposed to take to pay it back, you could save yourself a lot of money long term. It's not an approach that investors often recommend but if you've got a 7% interest rate on a 30 year mortgage the return for paying it off early is 7% saved. Whether the market goes up or down, the loss for that percentage remains the same.

The more debt you get paid off, the more cash flow you free up to invest.

It doesn't always make sense, but it's worth considering. When interest rates were really low I locked up a 2.8% rate on a 15 year mortgage...and at that point there's really no incentive to pay it off early. Other forms of debt will vary though.

Very good point, I am paying off debt as well. This will position me better for the following two things:

- Better debt to income ratio/monthly cash flow numbers as I diversify into real estate

- Provide more cash flow to purchase under valued assets should the market drop significantly (there's always an initial overreaction)

Hey, I didn't want to respond to the real estate remark you made in the post where I responded, but now I kind of just had to.

With real estate, there are hidden costs. The furnace breaks, the AC breaks. The stairs need something. The roof needs patching. There is mold. There is property tax. There are bad tenants. There are other aspects also. It takes time.

IMO forget real estate and get in the market. But I mean, I am biased right? :)

Re: the hidden costs of real estate - yes, this all has to be taken into consideration when you run the numbers. But it works in the opposite direction, too. You can add some upgrades, or even a car port or storage unit, and increase the value and cash flow of your asset.

I'm not looking at it as an either/or thing though, I'll still stay in the market just not 100%. Part of the reason I'm diversifying is because the market has been very good to me and I want to pull some of that profit off the table. In any event, I'm going to begin looking for the user named realestategod so you two can have a chat :)

This all comes down to time. Time > Money.

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Even true over the entire historical performance of the S&P 500. You just have to look at a longer time horizon. Busts are temporary.

Unless you're Japan.

This deserves upvotes.

Edit: Also, everyone should investigate this.

And China's debt profile is starting to resemble Japan's before the lost decade.

Even though wealth has been concentrating in corporate stocks for the past century or so, a lot of things have changed since then so we can't guarantee that this trend will continue. Access to easy money has made corporations extremely innefficient and wasteful. Also people have already started to complain about centralization so already there are social forces that are starting to push back against the corporate trend.

The stock market is just a mean of transferring wealth. It won't change anything in the "real world". You're not generating value for anybody by investing in it. If that makes your existence fulfilling, good for you. But I'd just feel a crook.

Secondary markets exist because they give businessmen and investors incentive to create and fund risky but potentially lucrative businesses. Your view on the stock market is warped if you think investors are crooks. The stock market doesn’t deprive people of things and is simply a group of people freely exchanging what they own.

I never said investors are crooks. I said that I wouldn't be satisfied by just doing stock market investing, even though that leads to more money. I want to do something that has a minimum of meaning. And i'd probably take a basic but meaningful job (plumber?) If it brought me enough money.

The point of this chain was to gain agency of your life. You don't just go work the market, you go do something meaningful and take some of the money you earn and put it into the market so you can have more agency in your life later on.

You say that like transferring wealth is a bad thing. It's not charity or particularly fulfilling, but public companies are intended to be owned by the public, which includes you. There's no reason to feel guilty about owning a share of the profits. They are going to go to someone.

If anything, ownership should be spread more widely. Suppose the government bought index funds and used it to fund basic income?

I don't feel guilty. But I wouldn't feel happy.

What are you otherwise using that money for? If you're using it as a means to fund activities that make you happy it would be worthwhile but if it's sitting in the bank then your bank is just using it to generate interest for itself. This could instead be going to you.

I would say that the stock market is a means of exchanging ownership of these exponentially growing assets we call companies, and that a public market exists for doing so is tremendously egalitarian. Any average Joe can become a part-owner of the Apple's of the world and ride with them to pre-eminence.

Apparently that makes the average Joe a crook? I don't know, I don't see it.

I spoke for me. I never told anybody else is a crook. But, "invest in the stock market and pretend to be happy" doesn't work for me

Sure it's changing things in the real world. And in a positive way.

You are providing funds for companies to exist. Companies that pay some of the people, and provide services for other people. You also get a share of the profits.

Certainly, this can be abused, but at the fundamental level, it's a good thing to have businesses that provide value. I like being able to go buy a nice computer when I want one, or going and getting some fast (or slow) food. I also like googling things. All these things are (often) supported by stocks.

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