Comment by sebazzz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sebazzz | Hacker News Reader

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I see this happening with direct collegues of mine. Working in the weekend, working in the evening. Even parttimers running constant overtime, when it doesn't appear to be necessary. Having a few work-related phone calls even on holiday.

I believe this creates a constant "attachment" to work, and does not allow you to detach. Especially on holidays you should be able to detach and be able to forget work for a few weeks. (Besides: It also serves as a good practice to the workplace: What if this person is not here anymore due to illness/finding a different employer.

As for me, I always to keep work at work. I don't work weekends, and I never work on holiday. I am a software developer, and do keep on date on aspects regarding software development. But this is because I want to, and often involves subjects which are not relevant to my work (I developer ASP.NET web applications, but privately I like to do stuff with assembly and C++, or fiddle with an Arduino or Raspberry pi)

I've noticed it sometimes ramps up even when management isn't really encouraging it and nobody actually wants to do it.

It's the most straightforward means of signaling relative dedication to the company - Joe the most insecure programmer can attempt to compensate for his skill insecurity by showing more dedication by working longer hours.

That then means that Jane feels implicit, unspoken pressure to work longer because "Joe is doing it". Then this 'arms race' dynamic takes off and eventually it becomes expected and long hours become part of the culture.

It's at its absolute worst when management aren't technical and have to use various "rule of thumb" proxies to determine who is performing well and who isn't, because in the absence of deep technical knowledge guess how they measure you all?

I am in that situation right now. Management has decided that a product needs to be rolled out ASAP so some people are working late and weekends. I play an important part in the project but I usually get my stuff done during normal working hours. However, there is a lot of subtle pressure to stay around in case the people working need something. If you are a "team player" you stay.

I don't want to let down others (with whom I have a good relationship) but I also don't want to kill my personal life because management has set an artificial deadline so I have a made a conscious decision to limit overtime only to the times when I actually have something to do.

The overtime cult is an insidious force that's hard to resist. Once a few people start doing it there is a lot of peer pressure on others to do it too. I guess it's a dynamic management can exploit to get more work out of workers by playing them against each other.

Sometimes it's good to lay on the counter social pressure (e.g. "Joe, by staying til 11pm you're making the rest of us look bad. It's not healthy for you and it's not good for us.").

Oh boy, exactly the same happens at my company. Everyone is available and communicating even when on paternity/maternity leave or on vacation somewhere on an island.

Many people see their value directly tied to their career and one of the major ways to make you (feel) important is to be present. It also helps your career since many old companies value presence over other criteria.

I'm three weeks ill now and for the first time, I begin to understand that I've never been detached from work. In the first two weeks I actually became so depressed because I couldn't work. I need to do something, don't know what yet. This is bad for my relationships and for my mental health.

I worked hard to break that habit in myself. My workplace (telco) gives all employees a phone and home internet, both with unlimited subscription, 100% free for private use as well, and a cable TV package if we want it. The purpose is that we can work from home as necessary, and obviously also act as brand ambassadors. Our phones are eligible for replacement every 3 years or so, for free.

For a lot of my colleagues, this is their only phone, because why wouldn't it be? Many of them habitually check their work email all the damn time, and I can see them online in Skype for Business, even when they're on vacation. I used to do that as well, compounded by a manager who expected to be able to reach us at any time.

So I bought a phone and personal subscription for myself, and most days I leave the laptop and work phone in my locker at work. Now when I'm off work, I'm off work, period.

A few trusted colleagues have my unlisted personal phone number, in case of serious emergencies only, but they haven't had to use it yet.

As for what to do with yourself, you need a hobby :-) Something completely unrelated to work, like bicycling or video games or woodworking. Something you do for yourself and/or your family.

My workplace provides a phone too, but doesn't require out-of-hours availability. I've written down my number in the company internal phone book, but I doubt any of my colleagues took it from there; I also don't have work email even configured in my phone, and haven't installed VPN access for my home computer.

I pretty much can't work outside of the office. Makes it very easy to keep work and leisure separated.

What about if your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you work to ease the pain of that?

That's a bit like... your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you take drugs (especially alcohol) to ease the pain of that. It might get you some temporary relief, but in the long run the consequences might be far worse than the original problem(s) you were running away from.

Well put!

Its easy to think that using work as a distraction (rather than something destructive like excessive alcohol or drugs) may be OK, but its really not. And most employers will more than willingly accept you working all the time.

Don't fall into the trap. Work is very important, and yes you will work really hard sometimes for time-sensitive things and on-call duties. But it should be understood that those things are anomalies, not something to be expected all the time.

On the other hand I have followed this way of work-life balance so earnestly that I don't do (almost) anything work related (or my profession) after work hours at all; except when I am looking for jobs and preparing for interviews (even then it's minimal).

I'd read (fiction), play sports, trek, travel, watch films, just saunter around, listen to music, or just have hours of sleep but I don't work after office hours (or even try to up-skill myself by coding in the field I work on, or some other interesting field). So far I have not really faced any problem because of this, but I am really concerned that it might start to show after I gain more years under my belt; or it might already be showing, it's just that it hasn't hit me yet.

Agree 100% and that was my philosophy as well. They key phrase in your comment is "when it doesn't appear to be necessary" In my experience long hours are rarely necessary and certainly not on a continuous basis. Simply measuring hours worked just degenerates into a pissing contest which benefits nobody.

My team has got used to me politely grumbling at them if I catch them working out of hours or while on vacation. At the very least, if they do that I strongly encourage them not to submit code reviews or other more visible actions.

Managers in the chain start bugging people about taking time off as soon as extra hours are worked. Setting the culture for the team early on, _and_ enforcing it, is critical. Luckily I've been there since the team was formed, and have enough seniority that people listen.

That said, there are co-workers that just won't stop working all hours, but they've at least stopped pushing code reviews etc at all hours of the day.

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