Comment by devmonk | Hacker News Reader

Comment by devmonk | Hacker News Reader

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I think the author is just taking advantage of Java's name having been drug through the mud by Oracle to push his point-of-view.

Many of Apache's projects are Java-based, and I don't seem them making any effort to port all of them over into a different language.

Though Oracle stunk up JavaOne this year, and the lawsuit against Google is making Oracle look like a supreme ass, companies like IBM, RedHat, SpringSource, and many, many others have a significant investment in Java.

Java has been and will continue to be close to the top of Paul's heap in terms of jobs for the foreseeable future:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+Python%2C+Javascri...

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=java

However, I would be the first to say that if you are looking to the future, explore dynamic and functional programming languages. If I had to pick one right now, I'd lean toward Ruby, not because it is the most well adopted (and for goodness sakes, it has had enough time to be), but because the language itself is great, and it has a growing and thriving community.

But Java is not dead yet, and it is far from a trap.

I don't think that Apache would start porting existing projects, but do you think that there will be many new ones? Or how many existing projects will have any significant effort put behind them?

Imagine, if you will, that there were no Apache. What would the Java landscape look like today? If Java at Apache flounders, the platform as a whole will also diminish. Java has thrived for so long in a Microsoft dominated world thanks largely to third-party open source efforts. If a (the?) major contributor of open source code in Java goes away, which direction do you think Java will go? "Thriving community" is not how I see this turning out.

"do you think that there will be many new ones?"

Yes, I think there will continue to be some new projects, and other projects will fall off. Apache isn't the end-all be-all of Java projects, however.

Several of the larger newer projects were under SpringSource's wing, and there continue to be new projects there. And there's Codehaus. And some Java projects under GitHub, Java.net, SourceForge, etc. Then there's Groovy, Grails, and related projects. JRuby (formerly at Sun, now at EngineYard) is Ruby, but it allows some reuse of other Java projects. Android (like the author states) is a subset of Java, so all of those Android app projects. Kindle's KDK is Java. Your cable box may even run on Java.

If you've been only looking at Apache for Java growth, you've been looking in the wrong place.

"Or how many existing projects will have any significant effort put behind them?"

The Java projects at Apache have had continued effort put behind them, but some of the people that would have put effort towards Apache projects have spread out into some of the places I mentioned.

"If Java at Apache flounders, the platform as a whole will also diminish."

That's BS. If Apache fell on its ass, Java would still survive. See all of the other projects I mentioned, plus all of the current Java jobs I mentioned.

Where "Java" itself isn't the new hot thing, Java is dominant, and things using/requiring Java are hot, for example- look at this Google trends of Java vs. Android to see what I mean:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=java%2C+android

For every new JSR, there has been a new Apache project which has been, if not the de-facto reference implementation, one of the major implementations (for better or worse). I just don't see this happening in the future. There will obviously be other organizations that will take up the slack, but I honestly don't see it working as well as with Apache.

I know all about the new-hotness that are Groovy, JRuby, Closure, Scala, KDK, Android etc... This isn't a Java-the-language discussion. This is a Java the platform/JVM discussion. Oracle's actions so far have been pretty chilling for the entire platform. You can't run any of the above without the JVM, and that is what Oracle is controlling.

Java will survive for a long time, and I don't think that anyone doubts that. But for the first time in a long time there is some doubt about whether or not it is a platform to build future products on.

In my mind, Apache is the canary in the coal mine. It might take a while, but they will lose their position of dominance over this.

Then again, it's been a ~15 years, isn't the industry ready to promote something else as the new major language? We've already seen Ruby and Python strengthen their positions.

Sun always had a schizophrenic behavior in regards to open-source and the Java standard.

This is also one of those stories where the GPL (version 2) is acting in the interests of Oracle, not in the interest of the users; if only Sun released OpenJDK under Apache ... but why would they do that?

Oracle can't and won't kill the platform.

They are certainly doing harm to Java, but Oracle hasn't sued IBM yet over this and there is quite a bit Oracle would go after if it were truly intent on killing the JVM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines

I don't think that anyone is questioning anyone looking into using other languages. I even suggested Ruby myself.

It might be a dark age for Oracle sponsoring Java Community Process development, but some of the JSRs have been crap. If development of new JSRs slows to a crawl, so be it. A wealth of Java, Ruby, Python, etc. projects have evolved without being attached to a bureaucratic standards committee.

All proprietary Java implementations are licensed, with the deal made behind closed-doors, especially IBM's.

All open-source Java implementations available (minus OpenJDK) are not certified, and can be sued for patents infringements (or trademark violations if they're advertised as being Java implementations).

Oracle just showed they are not shy on using their property.

From what I've understood, Sun didn't license everything to IBM (or for that matter, to others as you stated). Charles Nutter had a great post (and it has been updated) on the Oracle suit against Google where he talks about some of the wild claims that Oracle was making:

http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-goog...

My point is that no rational company would attack its own base. Oracle had some wild claims. These will be toned down and they will come to an agreement. Things will move on.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't pay attention to Oracle's antics (even though I just consider Oracle a whining child at this point), but I think this whole thing is overblown.

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