> It’s 85 degrees outside the Terry Thomas building; inside it’s 78 degrees
In other words, no better than working in a shaded outdoor area. That’s too hot to work in my opinion. I think they can do a lot better.
In other words, no better than working in a shaded outdoor area. That’s too hot to work in my opinion. I think they can do a lot better.
This may be my own biases at play here, but it's really not that hard to warm up by dressing warmer. You don't have that option for cooling down unless you want to wear a vest full of icepacks or something. If the goal is to maximize comfort, it seems like the thermostat should be set lower rather than higher.
I cannot use my keyboard while wearing winter gloves, so there are limits. Sadly, I have tried.
That’s the same as asking, “Who would seriously just switch jobs because of more money?”
It’s a quality of living thing. If you don’t loose anything but can gain something, why not do it?
I mean if your job only allowed you to sit on a small unpadded stool, wouldn't that motivate you to find a new job?
To flip back around to your point though, I definitely understand it as my girlfriend has raynaud's so I'll be in my apartment with the fan on still hot while my girlfriend will be next to me freezing with her hands turning white because she is cold. We are hoping our future kids will even out our weird temperature imbalances and be normal.
For most office spaces it's not so much the temp that freezes me it's the breeze while I'm sitting in a chair typing.
If so, then I would talk to your coworkers to see if you can get switched to a better desk location for your medical condition.
So, pick your poison and while it may be just that the grass is always greener on the other side, I would definitely prefer to run on the colder side than the hotter side especially since I prefer to wear jeans and a sweatshirt/jacket over shorts and a t-shirt.
Edit: My girlfriend said she would rather be like me and be too hot than be too cold so maybe it is just the grass is always greener on the other side.
It's because offices are stuck air conditioning to a level that makes suits comfortable. There was a big brouhaha about it in England a couple years ago.
You catch a breeze wearing that, and it's like wearing a weightless AC unit on your back. Hand to God.
https://www.amazon.com/Charades-Astronaut-Space-Costume-Jump...
BTW 73-74 is not "like it cold" that is standard temp most offices should be at for the balance.
62f is liking it cold, and I like it cold. I have been known to wear short sleeves, and shorts outside in 45-50 degree weather.
78 in the building along with hot computers means you are quickly going to have a rather uncomfortable situation.
The fact this company has to adjust work hours to accommodate their “progressiveness” means they actually haven’t solved anything. It’s just virtue signaling. They could just as easily have their team work nights to get the same effect — but then they wouldn’t get media attention for just how innovative they are. Windows open in California means you also subject yourself to wildfire particulates, smog and other pollutants that HVAC systems mitigate. “Fresh air” is nice — when it’s actually fresh, and in most cities, it isn’t. Even Paris has had serious air quality situations. City air just isn’t all that clean. In Beijing, “fresh air” is downright toxic. I am not sure how eliminating air conditioning is considered an innovation. Air conditioning was one of the most important inventions, anyone that says otherwise never spent any time in an un-air-conditioned New Orleans house with box fans creating a cross breeze of 100% humidity. The nostalgia for the good old days is felt by those that never had to live through those days.
This story reads to me like nonsense. Seattle, while it can get “hot” is positively frigid when compared to much of the rest of the country. Try that in Atlanta, Houston or Arizona. This story is the equivalent of a Miami building being built without heating — it isn’t any kind of groundbreaking innovation. When a building in Minnesota is built without heat, then I might be interested.
What’s really innovative is how Apple Park handles fresh air and HVAC. Apple Park isn’t 78 degrees inside — it’s much cooler; they went far beyond the “innovation” in this Seattle building. This sort of innovation can be done, but being proud of a 78 degree internal temperature is like being proud when someone’s kid stops wetting the bed at age 12. It’s only a big deal to those who are experiencing it, but to the rest of us, it’s just self-congratulatory bullshit of the most mundane sort: big deal, you designed a building that isn’t quite at hot as the outdoors using groundbreaking technology that is equivalent to an open window.
I don't know why you seem to be so riled up about this building. Why can't you read an article about a building that is achieving sustainability in an interesting way without being triggered by it? Sure, it has it's characteristics that some people might not prefer, but it's nothing to get so upset over.
People who complain about having to put on a sweater have no idea how miserable it is for those of us who have to sit for 8+ hours in an environment sweating profusely when it gets too hot.
This is why office AC is the way it is. You can put on a sweater. I cannot take off my skin.
Like fucking roasting all day...
Those of us who suffer from this would LOVE to trade places with the people who complain of the terrible effort of “putting on a sweater in the summer time” when it’s a bit too cool inside.
Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of peeling off our skin when we are sweating uncontrollably in a 78F room, that some say is “not too hot”.
It’s important to recognize that humans are very diverse creatures, and office environments have to deal with the complex task of accommodating a wide range of physiologies.
In natural conditions, I'd expect people who sweat more to actually be more comfortable with natural airflow causing evaporative cooling. Unfortunately, in modern well sealed buildings with little air flow, this adaptation would be counterproductive.
It sounds like this building was an experiment aimed at rediscovering what a natural air flow would feel like in an office environment. I love my AC, personally, but I'd still be curious to see what 78 feels like in that building, it might not be so bad. I do enjoy working outside on the patio when it's warm out with a nice cool breeze.
Absolutely, unquestionably, YES! (Certainly for some people). Those sufficiently uncomfortable would migrate to climates better suited to their physiology, if their physiology didn’t adapt to the environment; for example, my ancestors were from extreme cold environments, and I am without a doubt FAR more comfortable in 50 degree F weather in a T shirt than I am in 70 degree weather. And to me with the right clothing, everything down to and even below freezing is quite pleasant.
Prior to much modern technology, just surviving and staying alive as a human was a miserable, painful experience.
We have it so, so good today, compared to our ancestors just a hundred years ago, let alone thousands. Virtually every measure of human suffering (extreme poverty, starvation, sickness, death, etc) is dramatically lowering with each generation.
It is a wonderful thing that modern advancements allows us to be comfortable, which then further frees our minds to pursue even greater and more wonderful endeavors.
Isn't that like asking "Do you think people were terribly uncomfortable using the outhouse in the middle of winter before indoor plumbing was invented?"
Uh, yeah. Life before AC, indoor plumbing, electricity, refrigeration, etc. sucked hard.
Neither me or my wife feel like that lifestyle "sucked hard", although it certainly had challenges. Now we have a nice house in an affluent suburb and have plenty of luxuries, yet this lifestyle also has its challenges. Whether or not it sucks seems largely a matter of mindset and perspective.
The outhouse, on the other hand, was almost zero maintenance. The only cleaning I had to do was occasional sweeping. It was nicely made from cedar wood with plenty of natural ventilation (no door), it never smelt terrible or felt disgusting. It takes a lot of work and money to make an indoor bathroom stay as nice as my outhouse was naturally.
I agree that you will find very many people in the developed world who think that going to an outhouse at 50 below would probably suck hard, but relatively few of them have first-hand experience so that's a hypothetical situation for them.
In Alaska you can certainly find plenty of people who voluntarily live this way. Not out of poverty or being a total recluse, but because the negative parts simply don't turn out to be as bad as it might seem before you've tried it, and the positive experiences associated with living closer to nature are deeply rewarding.
Yes, absolutely. I grew up without AC and now I jokingly tell my fiance my entire career has been motivated to ensure I maintain access to AC the rest of my life.
I grew up in a very cold place (MN) compared to most - the cold didn't matter much to me. I'm a t-shirt in 40 degree weather sort of guy. The hot summer months were absolute utter hell though, even with fans and sleeping in the basement/etc. To this day I think this had a huge effect on my sleeping patterns and thus other health problems later on in life.
I do think one of the elephants in the room is the obesity issue. I certainly have noticed I get a lot hotter with 40lbs extra on me. When the average American is overweight I'm sure this has moved the "herd preference temperature" down a couple degrees the past few decades.
We have AC now, lets use it
I do not have the desire to Sweat all day every day in my office while I am attempting to use a computer or do my work
I do not have the desire to have my body be cooled by "natural airflow causing evaporative cooling" caused by my profuse uncomfortable and unsightly sweating over everything
I do not have the this desire, what I have a desire for is Air Conditioning, a modern convenience that human invented so we would no longer need to use "natural airflow causing evaporative cooling"
For me anything above 21 C (~70 F) and sunny is uncomfortable miserable for me. I am serious. Everybody seems to enjoy the sunlight and talk about how depressed they get in the winters when it’s dark but I have the exact 100% opposite. During the summers I can’t go outside. Like, it’s not physically impossible and I can tolerate going outside long enough to walk to the store and so on, but the thought of “enjoying my time outside in the warm summer sun” elucidates the same thoughts that you’d get if I asked you to stick your hand inside a garbage disposal. I’m not even being hyperbolic right now. The thought of being outside when it’s sunny and 21+ degrees seriously shuts me down entirely. I’m basically depressed all summer and spring because of the sun, because of the temperature. I’m depressed because it means I cant go outside and enjoy the things I enjoy in the fall and winter: going on long bike rides, trail running, hiking and camping, etc.
For whatever reason, the moment the bright sun shines in my face or the first bead of sweat beads up on my body I just 100% shut down. Nothing is fun anymore. Nothing is enjoyable anymore.
I’ve spoken with several therapists to try to get some help with this and nothing people say or tell me has helped. It doesn’t help that everybody things I’m just being a big baby either.
But come fall and winter, I f-king love live. I love waking up before the sun rises and getting in a nice 30 minute run in the dark. I love getting into work when it’s dark and leaving work when it’s dark. I love walking around town or visiting nearby cities (Europe) in the winter because I’m not sweating the entire time. I love feeling the super cold wind hit me as I’m cycling long 20+ km rides. In the spring and summer I love being outside on the days when it’s overcast, gray, raining aka “depressing weather.” It doesn’t bother me at all. I love looking outside my office windows or my living room window and seeing gray clouds all day every day. In the winters I can wear T-shirt’s down to ~5 C, and I can wear just a hoodie and jeans down to the negatives as long as I have gloves.
I would love it if I could stand being in the sun, being in the warmth, but I can’t and I’ve tried. Like a lot of people have wrote: you can always wear more clothes. You can always light the place up. You can always use an umbrella. What can I do when it’s unbearbly hot and sunny and I’m already wearing shorts and a T-shirt? Absolutely nothing.
I don't personally mind short warm bursts when I'm sitting in a sauna and getting a frigid soaking afterwards, but I do tend to sweat and it's really very annoying having to wear cloth during an office day that that are soaked - and my skin also hates me for it. I also tend to feel immediately miserable when I get direct sunshine on my head, which is why I tend to wear a hat - though that makes the sweating issue worse.
I kind of enjoy the time of my commute the most where I can set the AC as I please and put on some fairly dark driving sunglasses while listening to a book. Peaceful and comfortable time that is.
I also got a set of office glasses with some 50% shading and a blue light filter for those places that insist on 1500 Lumen/m2 brightness.
I concur about the lack of understanding of a lot of people for these issues. "Sun is good, stop whining" is really irritating. People are different, not every one likes ice cream, bright light/sun, waking up early, etc.
I don't think the point of the building in this article was to force warmer temperatures on everybody. It sounded more like an experiment in increasing airflow. I think it would be most beneficial if they could work out a way to keep temperatures lower without sacrificing the air flow.
As an engineer, I firmly believe that innovation is driven through the process of starting with an experiment, discovering weak points, and steadily iterating to mitigate the weaknesses without sacrificing the advantages. But this process must be firmly grounded in a deep understanding of experiences of end-users who interact with the product, and the core objective should be improving quality of life, accounting for the variability in what that means to different people.
As I said I think it’s wasteful especially cause I can’t seal my windows. But if you read my post then you’d see that my limit of caring stops when I’m sweating in my bed at 11pm at night because it’s still 30+ despite me being on the ground floor.
Swimming well I am in cool water at the point does sweating is not really needed.
Further I am not in Business Causal attire when I am hiking, and hiking or other outdoor exercise is an activity where one is expected to be sweating, however in a office environment one is not expected to have sweat dripping from the face, have their shirt soaked in sweat, etc.
And we have a very mild climate, so it would only be this hot in late afternoon for a dozen days or so each year. On such days I'd just say "I'm uncomfortable so I'm going to WFH the rest of the day." I'm pretty sure that would be acceptable for this architecture firm. It's never been a problem that I leave work early due to traffic from baseball games near my downtown Seattle office, for example.
I totally understand that you have a different heat tolerance and physiological reaction to heat than I do. I'd go crazy exercising in a gym when it feels so much more stimulating overall to be outside, whereas mid-80's temperature with low humidity is just mildly unpleasant to me. But I respect that other's feel differently about it.
However, the difference between 78 and your ideal temperature is probably not so great, especially compared to many other parts of the country with much higher temps and humidity. I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility that this Terry Building might not be as uncomfortable for you as it sounds. And if it did turn out to be unbearably uncomfortable for you, I wouldn't discount the possibility of working together with your team and management to find an agreeable solution.
When I have my own office with my own AC Zone/Controls it would be set to 62 Degrees. That is a significant difference from 78.
My current office building has shared zones and sets the AC at about 73, it is bearable most days provided I do not need to do anything more than use my computer, even then I have a desk fan blowing air at me continually while at my desk. I am not however sweating or overly uncomfortable, the fan is able to mitigate 90% of my comfort.
However it does not take much physical work in that environment to push me over the edge in to sweating.
as to "accommodate attire appropriate for the temperature" the thing is some people might like wearing shorts, sandals, and a beach shirt to work, I do not even own these things. I don't wear suits, but I wear long pants, I wear a button down shirt and that is it. I do not believe an office environment should look like everyone is going to the beach. I am sure that is old fashioned thinking however, i believe Professionals should dress professionally.
What has not been so variable are things I'd consider more core aspects of professional behavior:
* caring deeply about customer needs and expectations, exercising grit, determination, and ingenuity to satisfy them
* understanding business concerns like cost management and delivering value to both investors and customers, striking a balance between competing demands
* understanding and caring about teammates, working effectively with a team to achieve above 2 objectives. maintaining a solution oriented mindset.
Here's how I might apply my interpretation of professionalism to the hypothetical situation that you were a capable coworker at Weber Thompson who felt uncomfortable due to the approximately 16 degree temperature excess on a hot day: propose partitioning off a space and installing air conditioning there for those who want it.
I don't see any inherent technical obstacles or insurmountable business concerns in that solution. It would balance the desires of some employees for connection with outside air, without causing discomfort to others who for one reason or another have a different preference. Customers might appreciate the flexibility to make the space suitable for a wider variety of preferences, and ask if we can do the same for them.
I admit the possibility that this whole article is a puff piece meant as PR for this firm, and in reality they're all miserable inside but maintain a charade of happiness to hide from potential customers the fact that their heat chimney was in fact an engineering disaster.
The simpler explanation, which jibes with my personal experience as a longtime Seattleite, is that it's just not that big of a deal to do without AC here as long as its a relatively small building and you get the airflow right.
A few observations I’ve made:
- Even when it’s this temperature, a fan blowing air over you really helps to increase comfort. Too much airflow is also uncomfortable (messes with the NC on my headphones), and most desk fans are too powerful even on their lowest settings.
- I’ve started eating less which seems to reduce my metabolism causing the heat to effect me less. It’s a trade-off as if I eat too little I can’t work as effectively, but there’s a local optimum vs being too uncomfortable from the heat.
- Shorts and t-shirt everyday. Even then I’m still sweating for the next hour if I do anything strenuous outside.
- People who are always cold don’t seem to understand the discomfort people experience from heat. In my home country in the depths of winter it often gets to 15c/60F or less in old buildings. I’d much rather that with lots of layers and hot drinks, than be too hot. Maybe they feel the same about the heat though, can anyone comfortably work in an office environment that is 35c/95F?
This may have to do with the climate you grew up in. For example, I absolutely love outside temperatures between 28-35C, provided a dry climate and access to water (sea/river/lake).
On my A/C unit, 25C is the factory default setting in cooling mode (20C for heating). I don't know why but in the US, people tend to set their A/C to arctic mode.
I can handle the heat and humidity and be comfortable, but not while wearing business casual.
Without electricity?
78 is tolerable with a breeze (and moderate humidity).
I live in the Seattle area without AC and it's fine. Open the windows at night with a window fan to bring in cool air (I don't have a breeze-inducing courtyard), close the windows and the blinds in the daytime to keep out the sun.
Even in 90 degree weather outside, the bedrooms on the third floor stay under 75 degrees and by bedtime it's typically cooler than that so the fan keeps it cool.
Maybe for you.... over 75 is not tolerable to me, I can not sleep at over 72 even if I have an industrial fan blowing over me....
My AC is set year round in my home to 68-70 and that is pushing it for me, In the winter my heat is set to 60-65
I love the cold, this is why I live in the Northern US and not Florida
Um, no I don't think I'll enjoy working @ 78F much.