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Comment by acchow | Hacker News Reader

Toronto has the best spin department in the world. I never stop seeing listicles with Toronto in the top 3, reading about how great it is a place to live and work, and how it's become a leader in innovation/tech/art/music/film/finance.

The endless fluff pieces are a bit tiresome.

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I agree. I lived in the Toronto area for about 10 years. I visit regularly still because I have a lot of family there. I would consider moving back too but these fluff pieces as you say do not help. The first thing that is needed for more people who live there to admit there are problems, specifically with low wages (and relatively high taxes too applied at lower levels), I cannot get my friends or family to even realize that because they are still quoting 1990s UN studies about Toronto being the number 1 city in the world to live or something like that, being critical isn't always being negative, if you love a place there should be a desire to improve it, not ignore issues.

Maybe it’s actully a really good place to live?

How about Montréal?

I’ll do the spin:

- Healthiest city in North America [1]

- Montréal posts best job growth in 2017 among top 20 largest urban centers in Canada and the U.S. [2]

- Lowest unemployment rate since 2001 [3]

- Montréal is 2nd global artificial intelligence hub [4]

[1] https://www.spotahome.com/healthiest-cities-world [2] http://www.montrealinternational.com/en/blog/montreal-posts-... [3] https://montrealgazette.com/business/montreals-unemployment-... [4] http://www.montrealinternational.com/en/news/2017/11/montrea...

I'm a Montreal, this is pure spin.

The 'low unemployment' bit is funny considering how many underemployed, homeless and in betweens there are. I don't remotely buy it. The economy in Montreal is reasonable but soft. I guess compared to itself in 2001?

The AI hub is correct for now, that might change.

Can you quote any hard references, like the post you're replying to? Using your anecdotal method, I can say Montreal has a culture that doesn't expect everyone to simply be job focused, which you may interpret in your own way, but there is a lot of support for low key lifestyles (low cost childcare, co-op ateliers in every neighbourhood, etc) and the cost of living is quite low. Regardless, the economy is doing well, unemployment is low and the homeless population is average for Canada. Large parts of Montreal may be inscrutable to people who don't speak french well (like me) but it's still a great place to live, IMO.

I think if you can get a decent tech job and if you speak French. Montreal is definitely a better pick than Toronto.

You can easily get a job without French. I know 2 shops that can’t fill positions even with competitive (for Montreal) salaries. One is all English (Wordpress, magneto shop) and the other is large international org. The international org couldn’t even fill the secretary role for 6 month. They ended up getting a student fresh of the school without experience.

I’m constantly getting bombarded with recruiters with good offers.

If by 'better pick' you mean almost 1/2 salary.

I've lived here for quite some time and grew up in Toronto. I've lived in the Valley and around the world, I'm acquainted with most issues.

1/2 salary of Toronto? No way! Montréal salaries are lower, but by 15-20% max. Yet you can buy a condo with a parking spot, in a central location for $220. The cost of living is much lower than Toronto.

I’ve lived in Ottawa, Toronto and now Montreal. Montreal is by far more affordable than the other 2.

Do you know French and love winter?

You can do without French but then again if you're living there make an effort

Winter is worse than Toronto but not by much (and Ottawa winters seem worse than both, to the point a whole canal freezes)

Montreal winters are far worse than Ottawa, if only due to the laissez faire attitude taken towards infrastructure and maintenance of the city and buildings - not just government, but landlords as well.

Well, according to Wikipedia, Montreal has 226cm of snowfall per year and Ottawa has 175cm (and 3 fewer precipitation days)

Average and record low are lower in Ottawa though. Would be interesting to know about wind temps though.

Ah, well that sounds like something they've got in common with San Francisco.

Montreal winters are legendary. Toronto barely even gets snow.

COL massively lower than Toronto. Vast swaths of walkable, mixed zoned neighbourhoods.

Self employed, so can't comment on salary.

Maybe Montreal is optimizing its marketing to another demographic. I never see media reporting about them anywhere.

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