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Comment by TylerE | Hacker News Reader

Honestly Model M's are little more than historical curiosities at this point. The state of the art has moved on. Once you get used a to a good modern keyboard - I'm partial to Topre switches, myself) - the actuation force of the Model M is just really excessive, nearly double.

PS: If you really want them, you can get Unicomp boards built on the original IBM tooling for about $80.

[1] Yes, I have a couple Model M's around, including a 1991 'vintage' IBM with a PS/2 connector that doesn't play nice with modern motherboards - they don't generally supply enough milliamps).

[2] I don't much care for Cherry switches either.

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Another 1987 model-M (compact mini to be precise) user here. I have never once even thought about how 'hard' it is to push down a key, hope you haven't just jinxed me! Yes, occasionally needing to unplug and replug the USB -> PS/2 interface when the keyboard is non-responsive is a pain, but I love it. It's a pleasant monthly ritual to remove the keys and clean them. In a time where everything is fast moving and development tools / environments / libraries seem to get old quickly, my keyboard is a timeless anchor that grounds my development work, and will also prove to be a handy melee weapon come zombie-apocalypse time...

I felt the same thing until after some years I started getting terrible pain in my wrists. It was the IBM keyboard I prized so much and held on to. Then I found some cherry keyboards in the trash in a pile of Point of Sale discards. Now for ten years, "garbage" as been the most prominent and stable feature of my workspace.

I don’t want to sound like Apple but you are probably using it wrong. I’ve seen people get used to typing on flat chicklet laptop keyboards and then taking those habits over to the proper old style keyboard.

An IBM keyboard is not meant for a typist that keeps their palms resting on desk while slumping in their chair. It’s meant for you to sit up straight and hover your palms over the keyboard.

If you type like that then it seems effortless and the keys feel light and you’ll never have any wrist issues. Reaching the numpad area is also easy because your hand is already in the air. A proper typing technique is like jiu jitsu—it leverages the weight of your entire hand and arm to assist with the key presses. Your hand is loose and mobile, so nerve compression is less likely. On a chicklet keyboard your fingers are mobile but the palms are “glued” in place. This encourages lots of “flexing” the fingers to reach farther placed keys, instead of just moving your entire hand in the “hover” typist approach. My guess is this creates ideal conditions for nerve compression.

The pain is good thing because it lets you know you’re doing something wrong. Using keyboard with low actuation force is just masking the problem. If you do something wrong with less force you will not feel any pain immediately. Same thing as people using shitload of fluffy pillows instead of fixing their sleeping posture. If you sleep on floor it might be uncomfortable at first but it also forces you into better posture, instead of making it bearable to hold a wrong one.

You do sound a bit like Apple in the sense that you posit that your way is the right way but you don't really justify it with solid scientific arguments. My technique is actually pretty close to the one you describe (my hands hover on top of the keyboard, although my elbows rest on the table) but some of your arguments sound off to me, in particular:

>A proper typing technique is like jiu jitsu—it leverages the weight of your entire hand and arm to assist with the key presses.

Given the relatively high typing frequency a decent typist reaches and the fact that you generally start typing the next key before you're done with the current one I can't really see how that would work. My palms are mostly static while I type, just hovering gently above the keyboard. They do translate a bit on the horizontal plane but I definitely don't really lower them to drive the key down. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but if you reach a somewhat decent typing speed of a few hundred keys per seconds that makes for a pretty spastic vibration with your whole hand.

Also I think it's a bit condescending to assume that every people who ends up with RSI or similar problems were "doing something wrong".

If you have elbows on desk you are probably not sitting up straight. Anyway you are wrong, when the elbow is free you can put your weight into typing. Just try it. It’s a bit of a flick of the wrist for weak fingers and slight up and down movement with your bicep, it’s not a lot but it translates to a lot of force. It’s the same principle as using your hips to put a punch in boxing or martial arts.

When your palms or elbows are resting all those movements are limited and your hands quickly tense up.

Here’s an explanation of the RSI issue and flat palms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pryYfH9j5o however their fix is not great and it’s not a sustainable position

EDIT: Here’s a quick sketch: http://svgur.com/s/7e6 The fingers are below the palms not at the same level, but this is only natural if your back is straight. Arm should bend at close to 90°

EDIT2: Or look at this piano posture video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0 especially at 6:06 mark.

Whatever the reason, I think it was the high actuation force of the IBM keyboard. I don't really slouch. I did not hover my arms and I really don't want to all the time, but I had a pretty good wrist pillow, two "Sun The Network is the Computer" pads adhered together, so my angles probably weren't as bad as you imagine.

Any kind of wrist “support” will severely limit your movement range. If you don’t slouch it should be easy to just bring the keyboard closer to your body, to the edge of the desk. I’ve made a sketch in case it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6

Or see this piano posture video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0

Around 6:03–6:06 you can see the type of finger flexing chiclet keyboards and wrist pads encourage.

Sorry to hear about these problems, but if 'garbage' works for you, then that's all that matters. I swap between my model M (for my Windows 10 PC) and a 'garbage' low end USB generic keyboard, and find both work fine, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if the model M wasn't available.

I don't know if this has something to do with my good fortune (so far!) of no keyboard-related RSI issues, but I was trained as a classical piano player from a very young age. It could be the posture lessons I learned - sometimes at the wrong end of a wooden ruler! - back then have transferred across to my money-making keyboard skills.

I used to play the drums and I did not have wrist issues so I figured I would be less affected by RSI from using a keyboard. It could have made it worse though.

Having no win/meta keys on the IBM keyboard actually led me to try different devices but IBM felt better than all those things so I kept coming back and dealing without the keys. I was very happy with the IBM keyboard for a very long time.

Before I found the POS discard Cherrys, I think I had only heavily used the Cherry MX on a Wyse terminal, but I wasn't really thinking about it at the time. The G80-8200 with clears were a great find with only noticeable wear on the num-pad enter key. The keyboard itself stores the setup and handles all the extra keys, not software on the host, so that's especially great for me as I have some macros to control the kvm switch.

There are a lot of keyboards that some people really like but I think are terrible and preferred the IBM over them. Sun type 4, type 5; DEC LK201, LK401; Keytronic come to mind.

Exactly! What good is a keyboard that can’t be used to bludgeon someone to death in case of an emergency :)

If anyone thinks I exaggerate: https://youtu.be/4_qA5OZFJ1I?t=80

"Topre is mechanical"

https://i.redd.it/f5yvlfm16ab01.png

There seem to be about 50 injokes here I'm not getting. I know that "Chad" is incel-speak for a good-looking guy, but the rest of it's a complete mystery. Is it worth having someone explain to me?

It's a play on the Virgin-Chad meme.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/265/329/e83...

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/virgin-vs-chad

I walk and look pretty much exactly like virgin, and I've been walking and looking like that since like forever (pre-teen). Back when I was pre-teen I was a virgin; nowadays I'm mid 30s and I'm a parent hence I have empirical proof I'm no virgin (not that it is very important..). The reason why my walk is typical might be related to ASD (yes, I have a diagnosis). It has nothing to do with virginity.

It’s not so much just mechanics as a state of mind. In my experience, if you keep looking at the ground you are in your head doubting yourself all the time, whereas just looking at other people prevents that and somehow gives you more confidence.

That said, proper posture also relaxes your body and an upward head tilt (make sure your monitor is at an eye level) makes breathing easier, even further adding to that[1][2]. Also prevents back pain issues later in life (I hope!).

Don’t treat it as gospel but it’s a good starting place:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/12/business/soothing-back-pa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gokhale_Method

[1] Seriously try tilting your head toward the ceiling right now and take a breath. Then do the same looking at the ground. Now consider you keep one of those postures for many daylight hours every day. It has to have a profound impact on your QoL, there’s no way around it.

[2] Also used in First Aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_tilt/Chin_lift

There's a variety of reasons why people look at the ground.

For me, for one, I got cats, I don't wanna trip over them. Especially not with my kid. I tend to bump my feet a lot on my kid's toys and other stuff or objects lying on the ground (even permanently or slightly moved). And I need to be careful when I walk downstairs because I am clumsy. I hate, absolutely hate, stepping into dog shit when I'm out and about. If I'd step on a slug, that'd be disgusting but dog shit is a whole different level. And its rampant here. Finally, many 'normal' people use smartphones whilst on the move (I personally generally don't). That being said, I do try to look straight, I try to look people in the eye, but that's secondary to the above examples. Which are IMO related to survival and conveniency.

As for your linked Wikipedia article, quoting from it:

"However, one of the main assumptions of the Gokhale Method, that people in less industrialized societies have less back pain,[4] is incorrect: mainstream science states back pain occurs to a similar extent in all cultures.[20][21] As of June 2015, the Gokhale method had not yet been scientifically studied."

Furthermore I encourage the reader to read up on the Feldenkrais method. This Wikipedia entry shows how controversial it is (Gokhale method seems to be based on that).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldenkrais_Method

I don’t know anything about it. But just looking at this photo[1] it looks like some hipster bullshit.

Gokhale’s techniques deal purely with posture and are immensely useful just to avoid or reduce any back pain. It’s just a way to sit or sleep while keeping straight upright posture effortlessly for long periods of time.

I can probably explain the sitting techniques to someone in about 15 minutes and ignore the other 80% of the book and still improve their life in a significant way. I recommend the book because it has decent pictures and shows historical examples of proper posture. Everything she shows looks like a natural position for a human to be in, very much unlike whatever’s going on in that picture.

Anyway like I said it’s more about where YOU are consciously. Are you in your head thinking or are you in the moment just walking and looking at the world around you. The posture etc. follows that, you don’t have to actively think about it. That’s why the meme in question selects it as a signal for confidence.

Furthermore, you have peripheral vision and your brain constantly inspects and maps your surroundings. It will not let you trip over things if you just look ahead.

EDIT:

Also I don’t know what the Wikipedia editors are smoking. The references for that “incorrect” statement are a complete joke. Gokhale actually provides ample evidence for this assertion in the book if you want to check it yourself.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Feldenkr...

Posture is a controversial subject. While it is undoubtedly important, there is a lot of pseudo-science built around it. Especially when it comes to linking posture and mindset.

As for looking down, I found that looking at people feet makes it easier to navigate a crowd, that's the opposite it open areas.

> Posture is a controversial subject. While it is undoubtedly important, there is a lot of pseudo-science built around it. Especially when it comes to linking posture and mindset.

I don’t see a lot of exceptions to this rule. Generally, I can judge someone’s state of mind by their posture and body language. The notion that body and mind are not very much connected actually seems more controversial to me if anything. Indeed, in evolutionary time scale, speech has not been the primary mode of communication for very long.

> As for looking down, I found that looking at people feet makes it easier to navigate a crowd, that's the opposite it open areas.

I find it if I look people in the eye I don’t actually have to “navigate” anything.

AIUI these particular memes came from 4chan and as such have no basis in reality whatsoever anyway.

That’s quite a bold statement to make after the recent presidential election.

https://twitter.com/cavemanreacts/status/990649419518357504

I'm also a huge fan of Topre switches, glad to see there's love for Topre out there :)

Another Topre (RealForce 87U) user here too.

It has become harder to find those right? They are kinda my dream keyboard, but if I actually invest that much on a keyboard, I think a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard would be wiser...

Nah, no harder. Both the Realforce and TypeHeaven boards are readily available from Amazon, and Topre has huge market share in the Japanese commercial market (Think things like POS terminals).

They're just expensive. The Realforce 104 goes for ~$250, which is about what I paid for mine 3-4 years ago.

That’s crazy for a keyboard. Brand new old stock Model Fs go for half that.

I guess it depends on your definition of crazy. Yes, it's expensive for a keyboard but for something you spend 8+ hours a day interacting with (and will last forever) it amortizes over time nicely.

Or...to put it another way... I think $2.5 per switch is a perfectly reasonable price for an industrial-grade component that is rated at 50 million cycles of durability.

Right I meant in comparison to Model F/M (rated for 100M btw ;)). I’m all for buying quality, but this seems excessive.

RealForce represent! haha :D

Once you HHKB, you never go back.

I liked topre for a while but switched to cherry mx red (leopold 660) because the keys spring up faster and have the same 45g actuation force. I can easily type 100+ wpm on the cherry but would easily get out of rhythm on my realforce. You might like the reds.

My Model M says 1987. Works like a champ.

I will have to try these Topre switches

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