Comment by ugh | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ugh | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility.

… and the total lack of bicycle education in the US.

Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including a multiple choice and practical bike test [+]. It feels a lot like a dry run for the real driver’s license, at least for the impressionable mind of a fourth grader. I got a nice certificate when I made it.

It’s obviously seen as a first and important introduction to the traffic rules – what do the road signs mean, how does right of way work, and so on. You probably shouldn’t be confronted with all of that only when you are making your driver’s license. If only because you also have to know pretty much all those rules as a biker.

[+] At least in Bavaria. Education is the sole responsibility of the states. A quick search suggests that elementary schools in many if not all states in Germany have some form of road safety education including a bike test.

In the US, bikes are basically considered toys. If you're a kid, you ride one on your sidewalk to enjoy a sunny Saturday afternoon. If you're an adult, you buy one that costs $3000 to impress your friends. You put it on the back of your car, drive it to a fun location, and pedal around for a few hours once a month. It's way too dangerous to even consider thinking about maybe possibly riding it to work or something, because cars are out there with the intent to murder you as efficiently as possible.

Incidentally, I ignore all this and bike to work every day, bike to stores when I go shopping, do all my grocery shopping with my bike, and of course go on long rides for no reason other than that it's enjoyable. Yeah, there are people who will give you mean stares at traffic lights, or engage you in discussion about how dangerous it is and how annoying you are to them. They also seem to enjoy demonstrating the loudness of their horn... which do end up being quite loud.

But what's good about the Internet is that it's allowed me to grow a very thick skin. I can deal with the yelling. I can position myself in a lane position that keeps me safe but slows down one or two drivers. It's hard, but I can do it, and I enjoy cycling a lot (and don't think drivers are bad). But most people don't have the self-confidence that I do, get yelled at, and never ride their bike to work again. Cars aren't ruining the environment, drivers are.

Incidentally, my second-biggest complaint is that it's hard to buy bikes that are set up for what people need them for. I had to buy my own chainguard (from Germany), rack (from Germany), and dynamo hub (from Germany), just because nobody in the US sells any products that are any good. Heaven forbid someone buy a bicycle that could carry a load and wouldn't ruin their clothes.

I love working on my bike and tinkering with things... but most people don't. So they just buy a car, honk at the cyclists that are increasing their commute time by five seconds, and keep the cycle of fear, uncertainty, and doubt alive.

In the US, bikes are basically considered toys.

You make excellent points, but in US law they are considered vehicles, and subject to the same rules of stop lights, stop signs, and waiting-in-line as automobiles.

Many, many bicyclists don't understand this, however, and run red lights and stop signs seemingly at will.

This never really bothered me until I had kids and was teaching them how to ride. I would always point out (because I knew they saw) when someone would bike illegally, in hopes that they would learn right from wrong.

As a counter-example, just two days ago a man was bicycling with two young children at a time when parents were dropping kids off at school (so, presumably he was taking them to school). I was driving a car down a road and passed them on my way to take a left turn. As I was waiting for traffic to clear for my turn (here in the US, to make a left turn I have to wait for a break in oncoming traffic), he and the kids came up on my right and started to ride in a pedestrian crosswalk (illegal- they are vehicles, not pedestrians) at that intersection that passed in front of my car. The man came within a few (maybe 10) feet of the front of my car before I made my turn. I only saw him at the last instant (a quick, reflexive check to my right, because I had already ascertained that there were no pedestrians).

I hope I scared him. I hope even more that I scared his kids who undoubtedly saw the event. I hope he had a long talk with his kids afterward.

But the real point I want him to understand is that if some child dies because they learned unsafe bicycling from watching his behavior, he is partly responsible for the child's death. Part of our jobs as adults in society is to demonstrate proper behavior for those in the process of learning it.

I agree with you in condemning running red lights/stop signs and reckless behavior. However, I recently found out that statutes in my area state that bicycles may treat red lights as stop signs.

On my bike, I occasionally take refuge in cross walks in order to check cross-traffic. After reading your post, I'll look into the specific statues applicable to this practice.

I'm happy if the bicyclist at least stops (and appropriately yields right-of-way) at stop lights.

I taught my kids to get off of the bike and walk it at cross-walks. I would be very surprised if they still do that because so few folks do.

A co-worker at my last job said she even had people go so far as to throw stuff out their windows at her as they passed while she was cycling... ever happened to you?

In one lf Lance Armstrong's books, he mentions that happening while practicing in Texas, IIRC.

He obtained the license plate number, and the driver was convicted of assult. Also, if you are intentionally run off the road by a vehicle, it can be considered assault with a deadly weapon.

Unfortunately, it's likely that he was taken more seriously by law enforcement because he's Lance Armstrong. If I called the police with a similar complaint, I'd put the odds at less than 50% that it would lead to criminal charges.

I had kids throwing stones and once a brick at me while cycling back from work. With the brick it was at night and I was aware of something passing my head and then I saw it when it hit the road.

Nope. Mostly honking and one case of being told I was a bastard. I live in the city, though, and people are used to bikes.

If someone threw something at me, the police would have the license plate number so fast it'd be scary. Littering is a $500 fine.

> If someone threw something at me, the police would have the license plate number so fast it'd be scary. Littering is a $500 fine.

That'd be assault, on top of littering.

It does sound like things are better in the city. It's sad to see so many commenters have experienced it though.

As a former bicycle commuter, I have been hit by eggs, sodas, and even a CD. A lot of people just shout things as they speed by, but they're driving too fast for it to be understandable.

I wish I would have got license plate numbers. The cars were usually too far ahead by the time I realized what happened.

I've been hit in the head with a mcdonals bag filled with leftover food.

An acquaintance was hit in the eye with an egg from an oncoming car, and lost the vision in his eye :(

One night riding back in my military uniform someone threw a drink cup filled with ice at me. Since it was CA, I'm thinking it was some sort of anti-war thing.

Sad story all around. Both for the guy who was killed and as a commentary on our lack of civility as a people.

On a separate and far less important note: As a relatively newbie bike commuter it would interesting to learn more about your set up and why you chose the accessories you mentioned in your post.

Not the op but a rack is used to carry a few items on the back of your bike, the dynamo is used to generate electricity for a light and the chain guard stops your pants from entering the chain-to-sprocket pants ruining area.

The chain guard will likely stop you from having a nasty fall too, it' s not just pants that get ruined that way, a fall in traffic could easily kill you.

I moved from the Netherlands to the US nine years ago, and one of the big differences I noticed was the almost complete lack of bicycles on the roads. Not just that, but also the way bikes are used (or not used).

Where I'm from, there are many places with crowded traffic (not just in the bigger cities) and many, many bikes. It's common for kids to ride their bike to school, for example. There is such a thing as a "traffic test" for kids riding bikes, although I'm not sure if all schools do this. As for motorists, driving lessons are mandatory, and some of the things you learn are meant to protect cyclists: if your car has to take a right turn, you have to stop and look in your mirrors and over your right shoulder to check if there's no bikes coming (because they have the right of way!), and when you park you don't just slam open your car door, you look for bikes and other traffic first. (Failing to do so during the (non-trivial) drivers exam will likely earn you a failing grade.)

The Dutch have a lot of crazy traffic rules, but some of them actually make sense. :-) This why there are relatively few accidents with bikes, people accept them as part of the regular traffic, and cyclists don't need to wear helmets. (They do need reflectors so they can more easily be seen at night.)

So, coming from this, when you then move to the US, your first reaction might well be, "why don't people ride their bikes (to school, work, etc)?" One of the reasons is that it's just not a very common or safe way of transportation around here (at least in most areas -- I don't know about downtown SF or something).

I lived in Amsterdam for a couple of years, and it was great to be in a country that respected cyclists.

As it was explained to me, the rule was that in the event of any accident between a car and a cyclist, it was automatically the car driver's fault. Which seemed like a pretty good strategy for improving cyclists' safety to me.

I'd always wear a helmet though, since it doesn't matter who's at fault, it's always the cyclist that comes off worst.

Anyone can bike on the roads without any license or anything, and they teach you nothing in school about safe biking.

But I think what he meant is that drivers aren't aware of bike-related issues, aren't looking out for bikes, do stupid shit whenever they see bikes, etc. I love biking, and it's a great way to get around, but stupid drivers make it really dangerous.

No license in the UK, but most kids do the cycling proficiency test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_Proficiency_Test

Sounds like a good program.

When I first started cycling as an adult, I had no idea how to cycle properly. Fortunately, fear led me to Google which lead me to resources that helped me teach myself how to cycle safely.

Most people, unfortunately, only have the fear, and they give up before the Google search. A bit of education in elementary school about safe cycling could do a lot for the obesity epidemic and that whole global warming thing!

I know my primary school forbid students cycling to school if they hadn't passed the cycling proficiency test, my secondary school officially forbade it, but considering they had around a thousand students it was harder than policing the 40-60 kids my primary school had who were actually old enough to be left alone to cycle to school.

What I liked best about my local town was that the cycling zones were put onto the sidewalk, so as long as you was in the cycle lane you didn't have to yield to pass pedestrians, but you weren't at risk from drivers on the unmarked roads. I don't think I ever heard of a cyclist being hit on the street, one of my friends was hit but that was because someone backed out of a hedged-drive way at a bad time and broke his leg. IIRC the driver got a caution and the council fined him and ordered his hedges be cut down as they violated height restrictions.

Just to clarify, you don’t need any kind of license to drive around on a bike in Germany.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com