Hacker News Reader

Comment by mikec3010 | Hacker News Reader

That's sheer proof of the effectiveness of US's propaganda machine.

I think it's a difference in belief. Do you prefer American culture and values or Chinese culture and values? Which would you rather protect?

I'll need to think about this a lot more, but I agree Western spying is currently by far the lesser of the two evils.

The ultimate goal of Western spying comes down to these two things:

1. Preventing another 9/11

2. Selling advertising

I mean, there's more than that. The CIA spied on Congressional committee tasked with oversight over the CIA, this became public, and essentially nothing happened in response.

[Citation needed]

From Korea, via Vietnam through Chile and on to Iraq and Afghanistan - I think I'd prefer Chines "soft power" to US foreign policy...

Indeed. Others have argued that although both spy on everything and everyone, at least the US is a (nominal?) democracy, while China is a dictatorship. True enough. But if there are bombs falling on your head, that doesn't matter much. Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades? One shouldn't be surprised that someone from South America, Africa, or Asia would prefer China over USA.

> Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades?

Ehh... Isn't it both?

Is it? Honest question, I don't remember any China-led interventions, but I can't say that there were none. The US-led wars got a wide coverage, especially in NATO countries which were dragged into them, and the public was focused on them, so I can 100% believe that there were some underreported Chinese actions.

China has a history of invading its neighbors, and was the main disseminator of communism SE Asia, while the URSS focused more on the SW.

Which post ww2 invasion has China done? Granted, like the USA they've been involved as backers in places like Vietnam - but there's a difference between giving support, and invading?

Let's not forget that the US has a history of things like, training, supporting ho chi Minh - only to end up fighting a war against him. Training, supporting Mujahideen - only to end up fighting a war. Supporting Saddam Hussein, only to fight a war. Training, supporting contras and similar forces in Latin America - and is now fighting a shooting war on drugs in these countries...

[ed: as mentioned in a sibling comment - China intervened with troops in Korea - my apologies - I'm afraid the Vietnam War and later conflicts are more fresh in my mind.

https://history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm ]

There was nothing soft about chinese troops fighting for north korea and supporting many decades of the most brutal dictatorship. Or the personnel and materiel support of the khmer rouge while they buried a part of their population alive.

Due to internal strife and catastrophes China was not very active on the international floor in the last century but boy did they step in it when they did.

I think it's cute that you believe that the NSA's purpose is to protect American culture and values.

I don't believe that. If it came down to it, I would rather America be the world super-power over China, normal Americans make their culture, not the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc.

Yes, but the question is "who do you prefer spying on you", not "who do you want as a superpower".

Ultimately, I disagree. If we are using the assumption that information is power, and the purpose of spying is to protect national interests (even if that only means the interests of the government in power), then I'd prefer the US spying on me. They already are and have been for years. It makes me uncomfortable, but if the US stopped spying the Chinese sure as hell wouldn't, and so I can't rightly advocate for less spying from the US.

I call it a necessary evil.

True. All just belief.

Some believe in the West.

Some believe in China.

Some believe in neither.

Some believe in both.

Etc etc etc.

You'll be arguing back and forth forever if you're just arguing belief systems. It's not like math. You can't really ever "prove" one system is "right".

There are some differences in governing style though that go beyond "culture" questions.

I'll be honest, I cannot think of a Western nation equivalent of the "great firewall" in China. I'm also not aware of a national campaign to block VPNs, as seems to be happening in China. I'm not aware of Western nations actively blocking access to foreign websites, either, as China seems to be.

Thus, based on this and other examples, I don't think it's unfair to think that the internet seems quite a bit more tightly controlled in China. This is not to excuse NSA style spying, but first impression is I might not even be allowed to openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media to be honest.

Just a side note, China also prevents access to some Chinese websites outside of China.

The very existence of a great firewall is the hallmark of the failure in their state apparatus to manufacture consent. But of course you can openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media because that much is already rendered irrelevant to the mainstream voice so it's no longer a threat to the state that needs to be contained.

A better question might be, which is more likely to protect you and your loved ones.

does it matter if us culture (those "rights") is just on paper?

I've yet to see a US citizen prosecuted in the US for "hate speech". That seems like more than paper to me.

I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.

You realize you just said freedom, equality, and justice aren't worth defending?

America’s values haven’t been freedom, justice or equality for quite a while.

From an outside perspective, America is a horrible country where the rich live in a world of their own and everyone else suffers.

You have the largest population percentage of jailed citizens of any country on earth. Yet one of the smallest percentages of rich people getting convicted for crimes they are indicted with - so there isn’t really justice or equality in your justice system.

Freedom for the most part is true, but you need wealth to utilize it.

Equality is a joke. You’re the only country in the world that has no maternity leave. You’re the only country in the west that has no workers rights on maximum hours, paid vacation or sick leave. You have one of the best healthcare systems in the world for the 1% who can afford it and one of the worst healthcare systems in the world for those who can’t. You have next to no social mobility, you have a terrible educational system and you truly punish unskilled langur. It’s ironic, but America isn’t even in the top 100 as far as the American dream goes because breaking out of the social casts you’re born into is so hard.

Don’t get me wrong, America is a symbol of freedom compared to China and it saddens me that you’re constantly falling behind, but the next 150 years of human history belong to China.

A few things, from a non-US resident.

Freedom isn't the right to do what you want. It's the right to be left to your own devices, within the law. America is the most successful meritocracy in the world. Freedom of endevour, if you will.

Second, equality don't mean everybody is equal. It means given any two people with the same qualifications, experience, work ethic, etc and same risk via statistical analysis, they should have equal opportunity.

Third (and I don't even why you're arguing about employment opportunities), employment is a contract between two people. If somebody can't find a job paying 20 dollars an hour for their service, they should have the right to negotiate a lower wage to justify their employment. A minimum wage of above 20 dollars simply makes that person unemployable. Talking about paid vacation, it's the same thing. If you're worth it then your employer will provide it. If you are not worth it, and it is a right, then too bad you don't get a job. Some US engineers I know get insane amounts of paid leave that I could only dream of (coming from a country with mandated vacation).

America along with China are two of the very few countries left where people get compensated what they're worth. China not so much because of rampant socially accepted bribing, connections, etc.

"American Values", in this context, is used as a bait-and-switch.

The version that you're referencing would have most of the NSA up on the gallows. But it is obviously not the version running our society and being pushed onto the rest of the world.

You would be horrendously surprised if you knew what was going on in other western countries. You go on YouTube to find long form discussions between two (real) intellectuals on important topics and the vast vast majority of them are Americans. There is nobody fighting for western values anywhere else in the western world. Everybody is too scared.

America as it stands today, is the most free country in the world. It may sound grim, and that's because it is.

Even taking your assertions as true - this does not mean that anything done to protect the country is itself in line with those values, or that it cannot actually undermine those values. Such thinking is the general fallacy of power.

I don't indict NSA/USG because I want the US to collapse, but because their behaviors are setting up the collapse.

From the point of view of non-American citizens, your constitution does not matter much. So, for 95% (or 85%, if we talk about China) of people, those rights are meaningless.

Not even sure they are very relevant to Americans either.

I think those are good values. I also don't think those are American values in 2018.

I'd believe you if it weren't for the TSA, rich/poor divide (and subsequent access to education, healthcare, and employment), and daily police shootings of unarmed citizens.

What you are describing is a silly parody of reality. People are spending their lives making these things better, following these values. Politicians struggle to do the best possible. These values are very alive in the US.

Or he said the US does not really value those?

I'm struggling to read your comment without the inference "culture and values " == mass surveillance.

Why do we have to accept that American devices are rooted at all? To me, "American values" means that US citens' communication isn't tapped without a warrant obtained with probable cause of a crime.

Instead it sounds like I'm supposed to choose between a surveillance state.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com